High End Luxury Cars

merc1 · October 2005

Well if you really want a Mercedes without all that stuff it is possible. You've mentioned that you liked the SLK or E320 CDI before? Well the SLK doesn't have all that those features you mention and the E320 CDI is available without Nav/Airmatic/Keyless Go etc. Its just the S-Class/LS level in which these things are more likely to be standard. I'm sure you could order a Lexus too without all that stuff no?

What I don't like about design nowadays is the trend towards taller cars with slab sides. Why someone wants a SUV like view out of a car is beyond me. A car like the Ford 500 is simply too tall. I actually like the little Scion TC, but its way too tall and slab sided for a coupe. This new IS350 suffers from the same thing as does the Bentley Continental GT. Cars like the Aston Martin DB9 stand in direct contrast to this unattractive trend. The new S-Class is really tall looking also. These new European pedestrian safety regs are slowly going to kill all the low and sleek looking cars.

M

sv7887 · October 2005

Hi all,
Curse my luck. My 1992 LS400 fresh from all of its trips to the body shop/dealer got hit Once again...Some fool must have hit it in the shopping mall. Ahhh!!!! I just spent $3500 having every little nagging cosmetic and mechanical thing done. I can't believe it!! It was perfect, absolutely perfect!!!

Well looks like I have to hire a private army to guard it. What is it about inconsiderate people these days? My last LS430 was rammed in the parking lot too. I think I've heard similar stories on this board too. Another reason for the grocery getting Corolla. Let 'em hit that.

The Corolla was just a fuel saving measure. It is a neat little car, though the lack of side impact and head protection really does bother me. My wife has taken an interest in it, and I'm hoping she'll steal that so I can get my 05 LS back.

She already is staking her claim to the refurbished LS400. It was HER who took it to that mall on Saturday where it got hit!!! Needless to say I won't be talking to her for the rest of today!

The E320 CDI is a great car. I can't wait until they sell it in MA. Pricing isn't too bad either. Why they discriminate against diesel in a time of a oil crisis, I'll never know. I think the vastly improved gas mileage outweighs any emissions related issues. Besides SUV aren't even subjected to the same standards!!! Aren't they updating the E Class soon? I'm thinking of getting one of those or just picking up a S350 which seems to be a great value for the money. I'm with Gary on wanting to pick one up in 3 yrs. MB sure knows style, I'll definitely give them that.

SV

lexusguy · October 2005

With the new EPA classes based on "footprint", SUVs will no longer have the "light truck" free ride that they've enjoyed for the last 20 years. The big ones will have to adapt, or die.

nvbanker · October 2005

I think you and I are drinking from the same fountain - I too was ordering a new Mercedes because it's so attractive, inside & out, and roomy too, but have cancelled out on that due to maintenance expense. The new one is scary looking and the inside is uninspired. I'm staying with the LS. but I'm also concerned that the new LS460 is going to be priced out of my time zone. I don't mind technology, in fact, I embrace it - however, I cannot drive the new7-series. I've tried, cannot figure out how to start the damn thing. Now, if I MUST read the manual to figure out how to just basicallly drive the car, that's TOO much technology for me.

lexusguy · October 2005

The cheapest LS you can get right now is $57K. I do not expect the new car to start any higher than $65. I think it will probably be closer to $60.

anthonyp · October 2005

I bet , in the very beginning, they will have the car with the fancy package, and the higher number sort of where the ultra is now priced. but a bit higher...Then in a while they will be available not to much higher than what you can buy one now....It`s just that they will make it much more difficult to buy one without alll the options....I personally don`t think there is going to be that much demand for a hundred thousand dollar Mercedes.....Lexus wants to sell cars in a larger volume Tony

lexusguy · October 2005

For those that have not seen these yet, I'm pretty certain that this is the real deal..at least the real concept that will be at the Tokyo show.

merc1 · October 2005

If that is an official pic, which it looks like it is...then that is a whole lot better looking than current car. That said I don't see where the A8, S, or XJ have anything to worry about in the style department. While better than the current car it is no more than a super sized IS. I wonder if all the knocks on MB and Audi will apply here since Lexus did the same thing that MB and Audi have done in the past, making their top cars (S and A8) supersized versions of the C and A4 respectively. This concept has the same slab sides as the IS and lack of character imo, but still anything is better than the current car's looks. I expect some of that chrome to go away with the production version. This car does look better than the GS though, it doesn't have hump back whale look.

M

docnukem · October 2005

I think it looks very nice. Does anyone see any of the current 7 in the rear and rear lights?

ctsang · October 2005

Even if S were same price as LS, LS still will win this one again not just for its interior but the exteror as well. Man, S looks so dated compared to LS. Let see what merc has to say.

gmctruck · October 2005

Most major malls now have security cameras in the parking lots, so there's a chance the accident may have been caught on tape. If the damage was more than just minor cosmetic stuff, I'd check with mall security and go after the person who did the dirty deed and left the scene. I have yet to understand how people that cause damage to another persons car and just leave can sleep at night with a clear conscience.

lexusguy · October 2005

We'll people always bashed Lexus for not having any kind of styling "direction" and that each car just kind of did its own thing. Now they are starting to build some cars with a "family" resemblance, and you're bashing them for that. What should they do?

The XJ looks almost exactly like the old one. Jaguar took very few chances, and even if it does have a styling advantage over the Lexus, people are not so in love with the Jag's styling as to actually buy it over a Lexus or Mercedes. The A8 is an attractive car, but it still has the "Audi" shape, just in large size, compared to medium (A6) and small (A4). Lexus will also have no trouble selling 10 LS460s for every 1 A8.

Kirstie_H · October 2005

Don't forget tonight's member-to-member chat - it's open mic night, so come and discuss whatever's on your mind.

6-7pm PT/9-10pm ET. Drop by for live chat with other members. Hope you can join us!

kirstie_h

wbreaux1 · October 2005

I love the pictures; great looking car. Actually I love the styling for the new GS also, and would consider one if it had a larger trunk and more interior room. For those reasons I'm consider an M45 instead. I'm sure this is common knowledge for those regularly on this site, but when is the new LS expected to be out? I'm not sure I can wait that long but it sure is pretty. .

jrock65 · October 2005

So, the question is, should the 2007 LS460 be compared against the 2007 S450 (335hp 4.6L) or the S500 (382hp 5.4L)?

lexusguy · October 2005

My guess is that the LS460 will fall somewhere in between, say around 350-360hp. Cost wise, definitely the S450 (or even S350).

merc1 · October 2005

We'll people always bashed Lexus for not having any kind of styling "direction" and that each car just kind of did its own thing. Now they are starting to build some cars with a "family" resemblance, and you're bashing them for that. What should they do?

No I'm not bashing them for having a family resemblance, I'm just wondering if all the MB/Audi detractors that bashed Audi and especially Mercedes for doing the same thing are going to say anything about Lexus doing it. Of course they aren't because just like I said when people here were knocking the A4 and C-Class for looking like scaled down A8s and S-Classes, when Lexus does this it will be seen as some great styling home run. Fast foward, and that is what happened just as I and Lexus said it would do. But just a few years ago right here in this very board the S-Class was devauled because it had a C-Class clone running around, now since Lexus has done the same thing with the LS and IS, its a smart practice. The A8 and A4 are no different from the IS and LS, now. Both sets of cars are nothing more than a scale up/down of the same theme for both brands.

Of course since Lexus has managed to make a LS that doesn't look like poor copy of a Benz the raves are pouring in on the other board with the S being dated and what not. Benz had better knock off 20K from the price or tweak the S before it goes on sale here, nevermind the fact that it is already on sale in Europe so it would be impossible to "tweak" it for the U.S. market as far as styling goes. Such hype I haven't read a quite a while. It's 1989 all over again and yet even in 1989 Benz and everyone else went on doing what they're going to do in 2006, sell cars. This end of the world talk is really beyond silly at this point, imo.

M

merc1 · October 2005

Well I think its pretty much what Lexusguy stated, they'll place the LS460 in between the S450 and S500 in terms of hp like the current car in relation to the S430 and S500. A smart practice imo. I expect the hybrid LS to be priced closer to the S500/750Li.

M

anthonyp · October 2005

IMO a nice looking car, and will give us something to look forward to....I do have a question and it is ` Do you think the exaust will come out of the bumper as I assume the openings in the rear bumper are for that???`` It would seem that the gasses and soot would collect there if it does....If it doesn`t then the sleekness will be a bit impaired....This willl be fun as it unfolds Tony

syswei · October 2005

Not to mention the heat could melt part of the bumper covering. Is is a concept, so maybe the real car will have normal pipes.

lovemyclk · October 2005

Would sure hope the new Lexus design concept, as applied to the LS, will allow for better interior space utilization. You'd need to be built like a Hobbit to sit in the rear seating of the GS/IS(moreso). My guess is that this new LS will be more appealing "in the metal" and wonder if the new interior takes cues from the GS.

The last area for discussion here will center on the driving dynamics of this new car... over-nannied like the GS? Would also guess this car will impact MB/Audi/Jag more than BMW if the driving experience tilts heavily toward insulated luxury. Have heard, however, that the new S-Class is more in the realm of the 750i, so maybe MB will play up drivability with their new V8's.

lexusguy · October 2005

Lexus did not provide a VDIM disable switch on the IS350, so there's very little reason to think that there will be one in the LS.

dewey · October 2005

Would also guess this car will impact MB/Audi/Jag more than BMW if the driving experience tilts heavily toward insulated luxury.

In this segment I cant think of any vehicle that does not tilt towards insulated luxury, including the BMW 7 series. If you want performance buy the BMW M5 instead of the 7 series!! If you want a better driving experience than a BMW M5 then buy a Audi RS4!

So what is my point? Size and weight in my opinion is a drivability-killer. Once you buy cars like the Lexus LS or the MB S , LUXURY and not drivability becomes the priority!

lexusguy · October 2005

Agree. Thats why the Elise is the ultimate drivers car. It has an engine, wheels, and seats. Anything beyond that would be considered a "frill".

nvbanker · October 2005

I like it - but I too see 7 all over the car, past the A pillar......

merc1 · October 2005

Once you buy cars like the Lexus LS or the MB S , LUXURY and not drivability becomes the priority!

This is true, but a car doesn't have to be lifeless to drive like the LS430 in order to provide luxury. The S-Class rides just as well, and handles better, but isn't as quiet. Hardly a penalty box.

M

ctsang · October 2005

I dare you or anyone to find any difference in handling in everyday drving between LS and S. None of the people who buy them goes for their handling. Don't you know that the owners of those cars in HK ride in the back?

dewey · October 2005

The S-Class rides just as well, and handles better, but isn't as quiet. Hardly a penalty box.

Accoring to world of ctsang, the MB chauffeurs are the lucky ones

garyh1 · October 2005

I dare you or anyone to find any difference in handling in everyday driving between LS and S.

While I certainly don't agree with everything that is being said here, I have to agree that the difference in handling between a 7, an S, and an LS under "normal everyday" driving conditions is really not great. As someone else said, if you are looking for a true "driver's" car, you really need to go AT LEAST one step down in size to an E or a 5 (and even then a modified version). All the sedans in this class - including the 7 - are too big, heavy and high off the ground to throw around curves, etc.

In fact, what is missing from this discussion is that the choice of tires put on any of these cars will have a bigger effect on extreme driving abilities than the choice of cars itself. Believe it or not, I can throw my LS with 18" low profile high performance tires around corners faster than I can my E320 with 16" regular Michelins! That's the "real" world. BTW, the trade off for putting the high performance tires on the LS is more road noise, rougher ride, even a bit more vibration through the steering wheel than with the "regular" tires. Many LS owners wouldn't want to make that trade off; for me (with most of my driving in town), I like being able to corner, change lanes, even accelerate faster rather than cruise a bit smoother and quieter. If most of my driving was at 70 mph on the highway, I'd probably go for the "regular" tires.

Experience has taught me that all of life is trade offs, and all generalizations are wrong.

merc1 · October 2005

Well first of all in the U.S. most S-Class owners drive themselves so it really is irrelevant to bring up what goes on elsewhere. Secondly you either feel/get the difference or not. No one said that buyers of the S-Class go for handling or that difference was like night and day. What I stated was that the handling difference is there. Its the same thing when a LS430 buyers raves about how quiet the LS430 is. It is true, I've experienced myself, but it doesn't make other cars in the classy noisy, only noisy relative to the LS. The LS430 I drove just a few weeks ago at the Taste of Lexus was indeed the quietest car I ever remember driving, and it also keeled over and floated like a barge on the handling test they had set up. Mercedes had a similar event at the same track (Arlington, where all carmakers stage such events in the Chicagoland N/W Suburbs) last year around the same time and the S500 I drove didn't have nearly the same soggy steering and roll-n-dive like the LS430 did. So there I'm one person who has experienced the difference. If you don't see "feel" being mentioned as to why some people (not all) buy German cars than you haven't been paying attention to the boards.

M

oac · October 2005

Well the IS would be a nice car for a youngster and it sounds like your son has a lock on it, unlike Oac who if I recall correctly has a couple of much younger kids who need to ride in the back seat. The IS car is no family car. That back seat is the smallest in a class that is back-seat compromised to begin with. The only way he is going to get it is if he could swing it as his personal second or third car. Nah, I see either a GS or LS in his future in addition to the realistic workhorse utility vehicle. Me thinks the toy car will have to wait til the kids have left the nest or have their own cars. OK Oac youre on..

Designman... I've been so much away from here its been ages... looks like it ! Reading through, I came across this post from you.

Yes, I have a couple of young uns' - 11 & 13 to be exact. In a couple of years I fully expect that my car needs would change. I already have a deal with my wife. She gets an LX470 this year, and I get an LS460 next year... Originally, I had wanted the IS350, but seeing that I gotta satisfy the wife with the LX, and the new LS is just so stunning, I gotta pass on the IS. But that 5.3s 0-60 on the IS350 is sure tempting....

dewey · October 2005

The Audi S8 that debuts at Tokyo will be powered by a V10 derived from the Lamborghini Gallardo.

My driveability argument that smaller is better still holds. BUT to say that all big lux mobiles have indistinguishable driveablity goes a bit too far!

If a driver cannot tell the difference between the upcoming Audi S8 and and the Lexus LS, then that driver must suffer some form of sensory deprivation.

Despite the Audi S8's upcoming engine, I must humbly say that I would be a far happier driving its smaller sibling: The RS4.

dewey · October 2005

It is unfortunate that the Lexus IS 350 alienates two important types of customers:

1) The enthusiast who hates the coercive nannies on the IS and its lack of a manual transmission. BMW3 and Infinti G35 enthusiasts are not going to storm the doors of a Lexus dealership for this kind of car

2) The comfortable luxury seeker who finds the lack of rear seating space as a turn-off!. These type of buyers will remain devoted to the more spacious Lexus ES/LS vehicles.

oac · October 2005

Permit me to disagree with you on both points:

1) The enthusiast who hates the coercive nannies on the IS and its lack of a manual transmission...

There is a 6MT in the IS250, there is no electronic nanny either.

2) The comfortable luxury seeker who finds the lack of rear seating space as a turn-off!.

This is a compact sport-lux class. The key word being compact ! If you need to carry 4 people in a sedan, get a mid-sized t full-size car. A compact car, by definition should be small and nimble. That is what the IS sedans are.

If I own an IS350, it will be for me and the missus mostly, blasting down the freeway. When I need to transport the kids, either the full-size LS or the full-size SUV will do plenty well. But an IS350 will just be my fun/toy car...

bdr127 · October 2005

This is a compact sport-lux class. The key word being compact ! If you need to carry 4 people in a sedan, get a mid-sized t full-size car. A compact car, by definition should be small and nimble. That is what the IS sedans are.

Of course it's compact.... But the fact that it has 4"-6" less rear legroom than anything in its class is crazy! A Honda Civic or Toyota Echo have 4" more rear legroom... A 2-door VW Golf has 3" more... A Mazda RX-8 coupe has 2" more.... A freakin' Mini Cooper has 1" more rear legroom than an IS350!!!

It's one thing to just chalk it up to being a "compact".... It's another to be even smaller in the back than a Mini!

dewey · October 2005

1) An IS250 for an enthusiast? I thought that was the role of the IS350?
2)You yourself are living proof about my point that the IS does not provide space and comfort for the luxury seeker!

Kudos for your choice in buying a Lexus LS. It is a gem of a car that caters to the needs of the luxury segment. The IS250 and IS350 are the kind of cars that frustrates the needs of both the luxury and performance segment!

syswei · October 2005

Rear leg room is partly a function of how far back the front seat is adjusted. If you add together the front and rear legroom of the IS, it comes up short of the 3-series by 1.6", or 2%. Significant but imho not earthshattering, and not the 4 to 6" you posit by looking at the rear measurement in isolation.

oac · October 2005

1) An IS250 for an enthusiast? I thought that was the role of the IS350?

Bimmer enthusiasts have been driving puny-HP 3-series for years....Those 323, 325, 328, 525, 528, etc.. all have HP much less than 204HP in the IS250, eh ?

2)You yourself are living proof about my point that the IS does not provide space and comfort for the luxury seeker!

True. But I am a realist. A compact sedan is a compact sedan.... same as a full size sedan is, well, a full size sedan. I have a family of 4 and would rather put them in a car that is comfy.... A compact car ain't a family sedan...

'nuff said...

nvbanker · October 2005

Well, ahem.... having recently driven an S-Class for a week, and owning an LS, I can tell you the LS is a wonderful, amazing machine - but the S-Class drives, feels and looks better. It also costs much more though..... That's my analysis......

lexusguy · October 2005

Perhaps, but its not good enough to make me put up with COMAND. One thing I would like to see Lexus do is provide better chairs. They need to rip apart a Volvo seat and copy it to the letter.

pat · October 2005

Mercedes vs. BMW  Competing Visions of the Future.

Mercedes-Benz and BMW have competing visions for the future of the car. Inside Line asks both manufacturers to state their case.

designman · October 2005

Thanks Pat. I suppose the thing that caught my attention was Multhaupts (Mercedes) focus on technology as it applies to safety, accident avoidance in particular. The comment a bird doesnt have armor was very eloquent. It is also ironic. There arent many cars with more armor than Mercedes. I wonder if such technology can get them to the point where the cars will go on the Atkins diet.

designman · October 2005

Yep, the writing was on the wall with that situation. However, by the time your toy ship comes in I think you may be in something a little more exciting than an IS.

ctsang · October 2005

I would never trust the electronics that Germans put out. Look at the current electronic problems they have on their cars. Even if they work, they are not even close to the Japanese in terms of function. Navigation system is one example. Forget about MB vs. BMW in the future, give me Japanese any day. Do German make computers?

rl81 · October 2005

Actually, they do: I am not sure if they are sold in the US, but Siemens cooperates with Fujitsu on computers. Not like making a computer these days is so complicated. Come on, even a child can put together a computer these days. If you would talk about software, then you might have a point! Computers are no magic any more these days! Grow up, man...

syswei · October 2005

Computers are no magic any more these days!

Perhaps so, but electronics and their integration seem to be a trouble spot for certain car manufacturers.

lexusguy · October 2005

Making computer electronics and slapping some off the shelf parts together are two entirely different things. Most computer parts come from Taiwan. Germany is very involved in CPU making though. AMD just opened a new 300mm plant (fab 36) in Dresden.

lovemyclk · October 2005

Are you buying an entertainment system or a high-performance vehicle to transport you in style, comfort, safety and with high performance? Don't need a $2000 navigation system to do what a simple $5 map and cell phone can do. Don't underestimate the competition so blatantly!

By the way, yes they do... making computers these days is more of an assembly operation anyway, as components are outsourced.

designman · October 2005

Computers are no magic any more these days!

They may not be magic to kids who are born today, but I like many others have put some serious time in the trenches before the computer epoch. Because of this and remembering what my field went through in the transition period between 1984 and 1994, computers never cease to amaze me. I have up to 10 apps open simultaneously throughout the course of my workday and often think of what it what it would have taken in the old days with sheer manpower and money to produce what we can get done in one day today.

When I think of yesterday and the tons of magic markers, rapidograph pens, airbrushes, 35mm slides, photo labs (we could go on forever describing horse-and-buggy implements), programs like Photoshop are pure magic to me and will be magic forever. They are magic because they enable incredible productivity.

If car manufacturers can use digital power and ingenuity to enhance safety, performance and reliability, this will be magic to me also. The problem as I see it is that cars are too grounded in the mechanical world and those who design them have to distinguish between which technologies are truly useful vs. truly fashionable. As we often discuss, some auto companies are too smitten with tech as fashion.

When you look at the lead Toyota has taken with hybrid and alternate energy, which has a ton of digital tech behind it, my inclination is to say yes, this is magic and is one of the ways it should be going. When Mercedes talks about using digital tech to develop accident avoidance, yep, I can sense the magic. Again, this is the way it should be going.

Digital tech as fashion in the mechanical world? Not productive, not magic.

ctsang · October 2005

You missed my point entirely. If computer is so easy to make, why can't those Germans make better auto electronics? Aren't they just a variants of computer since all are computer-controlled? You are the one that needs to grow up, man.

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