Subaru Crew Canadian Owners

pon1 · May 2004

Bear in mind I'm working with MSRP. Correct me if I'm wrong but in Canada people generally pay closer to MSRP than to "invoice" for a non-domestic vehicle. If you can get invoice, what's the secret???? Seems to me if you dont offer enough, they hang onto the car and sell it to someone else. There is no big oversupply problem and not many rebates. Situation a bit different for domestic, I think.

Agreed FXT is better deal than WRX. The FXT over the Forester XS is a very good deal. However, Foresters in general are expensive compared to the other mini SUV's and smaller wagons that most people cross shop with the Forester. The only Forester that is good value to the mass market is the X. My wife thinks that anything over 30 is waaay too much to spend on a vehicle.

Now, the problem comes with the new OB XT. I'd like to see it begin in the mid 30s, but Subaru needs to find a spec and a price point that allows it to sell without making the WRX and FXT prices seem like they are ripping us off. Assuming they are not going to drop any prices, we have a problem, hence the move (for now, and this is provisional info) to sell only LTD OB XTs

I have no idea what the US is paying for an FXT out the door, though I am sure it has been posted here.

JP

ateixeira · May 2004

$23.3k for starters, $25k for an auto with the premium package.

The WRX is much cheaper, I've seen them below $21k at fitzmall.com.

All prices include freight.

-juice

volkov · May 2004

Yes, we agree again. I posted a while back when i first started looking that I thought the Forester PP's were expensive relative to the CR-V fully loaded. I thought the Sube handled better in poor road conditions though.
FWIW I got $2500 off MSRP for the WRX wagon.

Nicholas

luck11 · May 2004

Thanks for the explanation JP.

Although I suspect that your info is correct, I honestly hope you are wrong about not having cloth on the H6. Depending on OB XT pricing, my second alternative was the H6 with cloth. I will not go back to the H4 again, which means, Subaru may lose me as a customer due to lack of choice. We'll have to wait and see.

Hmmm, when I bought my 00 OB, I paid about $1100 over invoice. I was shooting for $1000. I think this is reasonable for the amount of volume they do here. However, popularity has picked up significantly since then, and with my dealer being a high volume, perhaps a better price can be negotiated.

IF, and a big IF, I go Subaru again, I think I am going to wait, as I did with my '00, until things calm down a bit on the '05s.

pon1 · May 2004

Agree 100%. No more N/A H4 for me, and dont think the Leg GT will work. I'd take either the H6 or the OB XT in base spec for 3-4K over the base OB. The way things are looking we are being asked to drop as much as 8K more than the OBi base model just to get into an Outback with a different engine. I doubt I can afford or get partner clearance for that. I'm much less interested in all the LTD bells and whistles, I just want a more interesting and relaxed drive.

volkov · May 2004

Just noticed, I said people in the US were paying 29-30K for WRX's.
I meant CAN$, not U$D. DOH!

pon1 · May 2004

All official MSRP just released, need to add delivery, tax, etc

OBi 5 speed - 32,995

OB H6 3.0R - 38,995 (not sure again if this is LTD/leather or base/cloth, suspect it is cloth by the differential)

OB XT LTD - 42,895 (ouch!!!!)

3.0R VDC - 44,995

Leg GT Wagon base 5MT - 37,495

Call your dealer to confirm, they should all have this info.

JP

luck11 · May 2004

Wah! I agree with you JP....don't think that all all the sales tactics in the world could convice my wife to sink $43 K for an XT LTD. Time to start looking at alternatives!

I'll check with my dealer later this morning to confirm pricing.

I presume that the OB H6 3.0R @ 38,995 is the sedan, not the wagon.

Cheers.

pon1 · May 2004

I was told the 3.0R @ 39 is a wagon, but I am also told the OB sedan is not being sold in Canada (which I doubt is true). I am not 100% believing anything until the cars are here and ready to drive away. But please find out all you can, thanks. JP

luck11 · May 2004

Spoke to Sales Mngr. Your pricing is correct, and I did confirm that 3.0R is a wagon. He also said he believes it is a cloth interior, although he has not yet received any specs so is not absolutely definite. I also have some pricing for automatics, so I will just re-post your info here with auto added:

OBi 5 speed - 32,995
OBi auto - 33,995

OB 2.5 LTD - 38,995

OB H6 3.0R - 38,995 (suspect this is cloth, especially when you consider the 2.5 LTD is same price)

OB XT LTD - 42,895 (ouch!!!!)
OB XT LTD (auto-sportshift) 44,395 (double ouch!!!)

3.0R VDC - 44,995

Leg GT Wagon base 5MT - 37,495

I'm on a list for an invite only reception to launch O5s at the dealer. Not sure when, but suspect it won't be until they have all specs and info as well as a variety on the lot. Will keep you posted.

Cheers.

pon1 · May 2004

Thanks.

That's better news on the 3.0R. It's now the "bargain" of the OB range!

So who is going to buy the OB 2.5i LTD at over $40,000 out the door?

Nobody.

Sales = 0.

Zip.

Well maybe folks into luxury features who hate paying an extra few cents for Premium.

We as enthusiasts have a hard time with these prices. I have a big selling job with significant other if I want to get from the FXT to the 3.0R. Hope she likes the colors:)

What the market will make of them, I don't know. Feels like a missed opportunity to me.

JP

luck11 · May 2004

Check out http://www.subaru.ca for information on test drives of the 2005 model line up. There is a link to a registration form, where you can pick the date and preferred time.

Montreal June 4-6
Toronto June 11-13
Vancouver June 25-27

I'm hoping I can make it to the Montreal Event.

joybell · May 2004

Wow, thats some test drive!!!! ;-)

sibbald · May 2004

Just some further information to my post #77.

After my friend's Outback gasket replacement, he had a serious overheating problem this week. The cause was a plugged radiator which had to be replaced. Our Dealer didn't charge him as they said there is a worrisome pattern developing here. The Victoria dealer, whom according to them have the highest volume in Canada, have seen three similar problems in the last two weeks. All three vehicles are under 4 yrs. old, have had their rads flushed at 48,000 K. as scheduled but recently had the coolant additive added. They have packaged up the three radiators and are sending them back East to SOC Engineering.

They also report that SOC so far have not come on board with the extended head gasket warranty program that SOA have done.

Well, next week I am off to California for a two week 5,000 K. holiday in my 94,000 K 2000 Outback with old gaskets but the new additive. Wish me luck! ;-)

Tom

ps I will be watching the temp. gauge as closely as the speedometer.

joybell · May 2004

Does that mean that Canadian dealers now have the additive? Or did you get yours across the border?

sibbald · May 2004

The additive came from my dealer at no charge and they have recently done approximately 100 cars.

They didn't call us in but are adding it to the cars which come in for regular service.

Cheers, Tom

snowbird · May 2004

Has anyone in Canada actually signed a contract for a 2005 Legacy/Outback yet? I am interested in how much "discount" they can get off the listed price.

It seems that our American friends are getting much better deals down south. My best guestimate is that the margin there, ie. the difference between the invoice and the listed price is about 8%, and some of the posters on Edmund's USA board were able to buy the new cars at 3% over invoice. What a deal!

The best offer that I have been able to get from shopping among dealers in the GTA (Greater Toronto Area) is FULL list price plus 4 winter rubber mats thrown in! I know Canada is a smaller market, but this is getting ridiculous. The 5 % difference could mean a couple of thousand dollars. Their explanation is that this is a 2005 "hot" model.

Any advice from any one would be greatly appreciated. Or I could just sit and wait till things cool down a bit, like towards the end of the year. Many thanks.

joybell · May 2004

..the deals are always in September, no matter which model. Having said that, I bought my Forester in June last year...oh well..I couldn't wait.

luck11 · May 2004

Snowbird, I'd wait if you can until the dust settles a bit....time will tell how "hot" the O5's truly are. My 00 OB was the new style and it too was thought as a "hot" vehicle at the time....a fresh change. But I waited a few months and got it for just over 3% over invoice. Car cost canada or APA in Toronto will have invoice prices soon I suspect. Its like anything...early adopters pay premium prices. In addition, we Canucks don't benefit from the volumes they do in the US, which means we also don't benefit from the same purchasing power.

If the 05s don't sell quite as well as they might expect, you can rest assured that the dealers will be singing a different tune by October or Nov. If you can obtain invoice pricing, offer dealers 3.5% (or whatever you're willing to pay) over invoice with cheque in hand...and if they don't bite, then walk.

Personally, I'll begin serious shopping in the Fall, but might not put an offer in until Nov-Dec...or at least until they offer some extremely good financing rates.

Let us know how you proceed.

Cheers.

snowbird · May 2004

Thank you, Joybell and Luck 11, for your sound advice. Will keep you posted.

luck11 · May 2004

Pulled this from Winnepeg Free press, the link to which was posted on another thread. Note that the OB XT below is actually the LTD version, not the base XT (which are not avail in Canada).

2005 Legacy Sedan MSRP by model

2.5i 5speed MT $27,995
2.5i 4speed AT $29,195
2.5i Limited* 4speed AT $35,195 *available in automatic only
2.5 GT 5speed MT $36,495
2.5 GT 5speed AT $37,995
2.5 GT Limited 5speed MT $40,295
2.5 GT Limited 5speed AT $41,795

2005 Legacy Wagon MSRP by model

2.5i Wagon five-speed MT $28,995
2.5i Wagon four-speed AT $30,195
2.5i Wagon Limited* four-speed AT $36,695 *available in automatic only
2.5 GT Wagon five-speed MT $37,495
2.5 GT Wagon five-speed AT $38,995
2.5 GT Wagon Limited five-speed MT $41,795
2.5 GT Wagon Limited five-speed AT $43,295

2005 Outback Wagon MSRP by model

2.5i five-speed MT $32,995
2.5i four-speed AT $34,195
2.5i Limited four-speed AT $38,995
3.0R five-speed AT $38,995
3.0R VDC five-speed AT $44,995
2.5 XT five-speed MT $42,895
2.5XT five-speed AT $44,395

shizumaat · May 2004

Anyone know if the US/Canadian outbacks will be getting the remote on the key like in Japan? It sure would be nice not to have two things in my pocket! Audi, VW, Land Rover, many have this, and it's a nice feature.

Also, it's a little obscure, but has anyone noticed if the new models are any better at warming/cooling the back seats? Vents under the front seats to keep rear passengers toes warm are really nice...

Thanks

sebberry · May 2004

Why is the Canadian XT priced higher than the 3.0R, and the US XT is priced lower?

pon1 · May 2004

The Canadian XT is LTD only, it is loaded to the gills. Available in 5MT or 5EAT. In the US the XT comes in base or LTD trim.

The 3.0R wagon is a Canadian only base model, with cloth and no moonroof, though comes with 17" wheels, 5EAT and a few more upgrades over the base Outback 2.5i (not sure exactly what these are, waiting for the brochure or the cars to show).

Canada does not get an LL Bean 3.0R or the 3.0R sedan. The Canadian 3.0R VDC wagon should be the same as the US model.

I expect we will see that base Outback XT in Canada next year when Subaru realise they haven't sold many XT LTDs at an on the road price of $45+. I would have bought a base XT sight unseen, now waiting to try out a 3.0R, and hoping the reports elsewhere about the H6 having no bottom end power are overblown.

JP

luck11 · May 2004

JP, those reports on the H6 are worrying me as well. I'm actually beginning to consider the Legacy GT just to keep my options open. I look forward to seeing these vehicles in person, and better yet, test driving them.

Still have not heard from Subaru Canada regarding the Test Drive Event. Applied for Montreal leg next weekend since I was planning to be there anyway. Keeping my fingers crossed that I get in!

ateixeira · May 2004

The H6 feels fine on the road because the transmission is brilliant. The ratios are well chosen and put into effect as soon as you dip into the throttle. The H6 isn't a rocket but it never once felt slow.

However, the XT is a rocket.

-juice

pon1 · May 2004

The GT option.....you and me both. I absolutely cannot afford the OB XT LTD, and am quite annoyed that we dont get the XT base, I cant wait to 06 MY, wife and I are currently sharing a 94 Golf CL at present (feel very sorry for me...).

I have been corrupted by 4 test drives so far in the Forester XT (AT and MT), plus I have never owned an AT vehicle before, and have not liked that many autos I have driven (a trip to the mountains in an FXT AT was the best). I know I will like how the MT GT drives.

My opinion on the GT wagon hangs on 3 items: aesthetics in person, seat hight (a wife thing) and ground clearance. I like the look of the 05 OB better than the Legacy so far, and have visions of grounding on the GT (ramps, steep driveways, speed humps, campground trails, etc...). Although I have owned a GT wagon before, I have never really been a fan of the Legacy wagon shape without the OB features.

I expect we will see cars here soon, but maybe the 3.0R will be later as it is a Canada only model.

JP.

pon1 · May 2004

Juice,

Which would you take as your main family hauler if they were the same price - a MT FXT with cloth and moonroof, a base MT GT wagon or a Canadian OB 3.0R (the Bean without the leather or moonroof).

I'm curious because you have driven all three, plus like me you have owned older versions of the legacy and forester.

Thanks, JP

luck11 · May 2004

Thanks Juice. How did you find the H6 when accelerating from low speeds, presuming you had an opportunity to test this situation out? I know this is a tough question, but are you able to compare this to the current H4 and the Turbo?

Any thoughts which (H6 or turbo) would have better pulling power when the vehicle is weighed down with people, stuff and/or possibly a trailer?

JP, I'm with you on this one. I prefer the OB as well...I like the higher ride height, especially for getting in and out of the vehicle. I don't do much off-roading, but like you I like the fact that I'm less likely to bottom out when going over uneven surfaces etc. But, I'll have to keep my priorities in check when I test drive....I suspect the speed and acceleration of the turbo might sway me to the GT!

pon1 · May 2004

PS: Check out the message board on subaruoutback.org. Some interesting points and counterpoints on the H6. Several aussie members who have been driving the H6 for a year or so. Lack of bottom end doesnt seem a huge issue to most folks. It may be a fairer assessment of the H6, although they dont have an OB XT as a performance yardstick. Also "our" North American model H6 may be a little different from that sold elsewhere since MY 04, I havent had time to compare specs directly.

We live at 3000' and 1 hr from some real mountains....another reason to go with the 2.5T over a normally aspirated engine??. Juice, what altitude did you drive the H6?? The H4 without the turbo struggles a little over the high passes.

JP

ateixeira · May 2004

Tough question, JP.

I think the GT wagon would be my first pick, it's the best balanced of all of them, performance/utility and features.

For 2nd place it would be a *very* tough choice between an F-XT and a OB H6. The OB is a lot more refined, quiet, and that tranny is brilliant.

Tell you what, if it had to be automatic, I would definitely get the H6 for the 5 ratios. Also, that would also be my pick for my wife's car. The OB 5EAT gets an A- and the Forester 4EAT gets a C-, enough to push me into the OB.

For me? Again, very close. If I could get a manual then maybe the F-XT. But my wife would pressure me into the bigger OB, and for the same price I'm not sure I could resist.

Gotta drive them back to back, though.

We were in the valley, probably not at altitude. Basically we were near Las Vegas Motor Speedway.

-juice

luck11 · May 2004

Hmm, will check subaruoutback.org....thanks for the link. I guess the only way we'll be able to decide is to get behind the wheel.

pon1 · May 2004

Thanks juice for another great post. We have been waiting since January to drive these cars, so quite envious. I am hoping the new H6 with Sportshift is a fun drive, because the old one is/was kinda boring. As far as sporting qualities go, I will settle for somewhere between my old MT Forester L and the FXT.

Allow me one more question.....hardly "Canada specific"....but here goes....some folks have complained that the 5MT in the FXT is hard to shift smoothly. Care to comment on the shift/clutch smoothness in the GT in comparison to the FXT. Also, what is the general first impression of the GT, is the power delivery real smooth provided you dont floor it. Where I am going with this is that wife acceptance of the GT (or MT FXT for that matter) will hinge on the thing NOT feeling like a rocketship during test drives. It will need to be a smooth, easy drive to make her comfortable, with the real scoot lurking at slightly higher rpms......though she prefers MT, she has only driven the AT FXT so far and was OK with that.

Thanks again, JP

ateixeira · May 2004

GT has the new dual-mass flywheel, they showed us a cut-out, but driving it revealed the smoothest Subaru clutch I have ever sample in my life, by far.

We didn't really get to accelerate off the line, but on the tight infield track the power of the XT is immediate, no lag, and boy is it quick. It does seem pretty linear so I think your wife will like it, too.

-juice

joybell · May 2004

I don't know if there is a difference between the FXT or the FX, but I felt that mine (FX) was very rough shifting when new. Now it is a lot smoother though.

cdnp5 · May 2004

I was driving by my one and only local Subie dealer and saw two new Outbacks on their lot. So I went back there on my way home to take a look. Very nice I will say. I also have a spot for the drive event in June (Toronto) which I'm looking forward to. So start checking your lots as I live in London which probably gets less cars than the major cities.

pon1 · May 2004

Which models - base, LTD, XT or 3.0R??

Anyone seen a real Canadian OB brochure yet, listing all the specs?

Also anyone seen pricing on 05 Canadian Foresters? The US prices have just been released, see www.cars101.com

JP

cdnp5 · May 2004

Both cars were base models of the Outback. The dealer said he didn't even know they were coming yet so even he was surprised. Probably even more surprised when I said I've been waiting for these and have been watching when I drive by. He had no brochures yet though but did say check back in 7-10 days. I said I'll drop by after the drive event when I have a better idea of which one I like better. My problem is I want one Outback for hiking and biking trips and one Legacy GT Wagon for just cruising around. Both are not in the budget though. Time for more lotto tickets?

luck11 · May 2004

My dealer has 8 05 Outbacks...variety of trim and colours...BUT no XTs. Salesman also believes that 2 Legacy Sedans have arrived, but could not confirm. They are hoping to have some test drive models avail Sat or early next week.

Have not seen them myself yet, but hope to do so asap. Will report back.

luck11 · May 2004

cdnp5....lucky bugger! I put my name in for the Montreal event, but have not heard back. I presume I did not make it in...perhaps I was to slow off the mark. Please take many pics and provide us with your impressions. I'm very curious about the 3.OR and the Legacy GT.

Cheers!

cdnp5 · May 2004

Yes I am very lucky. I signed up myself and my GF (really trying double my chances) for the event but only got back one "confirmed" message. We had the talk before the message about who gets to go and she gladly agreed that I should be the one. I'm sure she didn't want to see me crying for days on end because she went and I didn't, lol. The funny thing is you can't tell which one was accepted as there was no name on it, strange. Don't tell her this, hehe. My cousin signed up also be she never heard anything back either. They should have sent rejection letters so you know you were not missed?

I'll be bringing my digital camera and taking lots of pictures and will write my impression about the cars. I'm sure the first thing I will notice in the GT over my P5 is power though. All that power! I'm already having troubles sleeping and its still a couple of weeks away! I'll be in Toronto this weekend and have to drive by one of the Subie dealers so I will check there also.

shizumaat · May 2004

Hey,

For what it's worth, I just ordered a silver Outback XT from Summit Subaru in Trail, BC (Kootenays). They sold it to me for 42k even, and expect to take delivery on June 9th.

I can't wait!

snowbird · May 2004

Congrats! Very envious. Was it with AT or MT?

shizumaat · May 2004

Manual. The one car I owned with an auto transmission drove me absolutely nuts. I here the new 5EAT, especially coupled with the power of the XT is pretty sweet, but didn't feel it was worth the extra money. I like shifting too much, and I really want a go anywhere sports car as opposed to a fast truck.

pon1 · May 2004

Congrats on being the first into an OB XT (maybe).

Was that 42 even plus delivery and/or tax??

JP

shizumaat · May 2004

Thanks!

I wish. Yeah, unfortunately that does not include PST or GST. But still beats the heck out of the price of an Audi allroad, and it's got better performance, and it's loaded to the gills...

Plus, while the Audi is gorgeous, it's got too much of a rich snobby feel to it... I think the Outback is sweet and stylish without being pretensious.

pon1 · May 2004

So it does include delivery. 42 even inc the 1200 delivery plus the tax is still pretty good given they have just been released. Enjoy!

Wish there was an XT base in Canada.... we are likely going for the 3.0R as the XT LTD is too spendy, but will miss the 5 speed.

Green on green is looks pretty Allroad to me.

shizumaat · May 2004

Thanks!

I wish. Yeah, unfortunately that does not include PST or GST. But still beats the heck out of the price of an Audi allroad, and it's got better performance, and it's loaded to the gills...

Plus, while the Audi is gorgeous, it's got too much of a rich snobby feel to it... I think the Outback is sweet and stylish without being pretensious.

volkov · May 2004

And the Subaru is more likely to be reliable. Audi has improved, but their longer term relibility is clearly below average, while Subaru is slightly better than the mean.

Nicholas

luck11 · June 2004

shizumaat, congrats! I am truly envious. Do let us know once your take delivery and are able to provide some driving impressions.

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