Engine Hesitation (All makes/models)

user777 · November 2005

this is why it might be so critically important to do a comparative capture of real-time data from a car that has the problem, and from one that doesn't (same make and model) with the same driver and driving pattern...

once this is done, that loophole would be closed, and people could conclude rationally and objectively, the vehicle isn't inherently designed with this behavior...something *IS* wrong with the subject vehicle.

pilot130 · November 2005

I'm in complete agreement with your idea of a measured and definitive comparison between a vehicle exhibiting the characteristic, and one which doesn't.
That would certainly put to rest much, if not all, of the relentless speculation, accusation, and theorizing which has characterized this discussion from day 1.
Unfortunately, it is unlikely that your idea will ever take flight, given, if nothing else, the logistical challenges associated with getting an objective test like that going.
I spoke again with my Tranny tech friend re borrowing an OBDII unit which might be useful for capturing data. He says it's possible but not easy, and wants to think about it some more.
I'll see if I can talk him into participating in this discussion. He has followed it to a certain degree, but claims he is reluctant to get involved because, as he says, there are too many already involved who are often quick to dispel any beliefs other than it's a killer problem and totally Toyota's doing. Needless to say he doesn't buy that.

wwest · November 2005

ALL the resistors in ALL of the electronics throughout the vehicle just by happenstance are all at the + plus tolerance limit.

Mr_Shiftright · November 2005

It's not that complicated or abstract--perhaps my pitch was rather unclear---

It doesn't matter (in my definition) what percentage of parts aren't working right at any given time. No car can in fact be a "lemon" because no car can be 100% defective.

That's my argument.

e.g., a house with a leaking roof is not an "abandoned building". A ship with a leak hasn't "sunk". A man with a broken arm is not "dead". That's all I'm saying.

If your transmission shifts funny then you have a transmission problem that either you, or the mechanic, or the dealer, or the factory tech, or the factory engineers have to figure out. The term "lemon" is just an emotional kind of drumbeating that really doesn't do anyone involved any good I don't think.

Defining an object must depend on the majority of its characteristics, not the minority, seems to me anyway. Missing one question on a quiz of 20 questions doesn't make one stupid, so why does one defect make a car a Lemon?

wwest · November 2005

Maybe we should simply fall back on the manufacturer's accepted definition of a lemon, three unsuccessful attempts to repair an acknowledged defect and they buy-back.

mert2 · November 2005

too many already involved who are often quick to dispel any beliefs other than it's a killer problem and totally Toyota's doing.

You're not back to the "it's not a problem" line of defense are you? If it's not Toyota's doing, whose is it? Mine? Nothing wrong with the car, I just don't appreciate hesitation in my transmission?

BTW, do you think we'll see a drop-off in new posters now that Edmunds has the technology to catch them?

mert2 · November 2005

Well, I posted measurements as close as I could get them, w/o having proper equipment.

Is going from 1K to 3K RPM, then a hesitation of at least "one-one thousand" before the speedometer even moves in your mind an acceptable tolerance?

pilot130 · November 2005

Answer to your first question is "no, that's not what was said, nor was it implied." I was merely quoting someone else.
To the last question, I wouldn't know. Perhaps you're in a better position to respond?

user777 · November 2005

i'm glad we have some common ground.

provide your tranny tech friend with the link i posted a few times in this forum (i think the device by it's description is just what is needed - the ability to capture toyota specific parameters is a key capability of the device). 1 laptop, 1 OBD-II interface, a tiny bit of experimentation, and an interest in the problem is all that is required. oh yeah - you got to have a vehicle that doesn't exhibit the problem, and one that does. true, that's tough to arrange.

assuming the vast majority of vehicles don't have an issue, the best thing would be for someone with the problem to take it on, and find a buddy at work or someone in the neighborhood with the same model vehicle, willing to help.

that sort of effort to get to what is happening with their vehicle would have to play positive to the person doing the investigation during arbitration, right?

regardless, i think we need it to push this discussion forward.

hylyner · November 2005

Hi there. A new poster here. I think I posted two or three times only.Is this a problem now?If it is, could you say why. Why are new posters getting caught?

pilot130 · November 2005

Hang in for a week. I'll see what kind of feedback my friend has to offer. Perhaps we can do something along those lines at my home base.
Will get back to you if, where, and when.

mert2 · November 2005

no problem at all. I'm just a little suspicious about new people that come here to tell us there's no problem or that we're exaggerating the issue.

Why? Same reason I see no point in going to the '99 Camry forum and telling people there isn't an engine sludge issue. I have a '99 camry, but I don't have engine sludge. Makes no sense to waste my time there trying to tell people that there's no problem.

Same reason I don't go to the Mold discussion forum and tell people that they there's no such thing as a mold problem. I don't have mold in my home, makes no sense for me to waste my time there trying to tell people that there's no problem.

Why are new posters getting caught?

Because there's a habit on certain boards where people will post under multiple identities. The reason that isn't conducive to conversation ought to be obvious. It's really simple to catch people posting under multiple identities, I'm glad Edmunds is taking this action.

motownusa · November 2005

I have noticed that the Lexus IS 350 uses the same engine as the Avalon but a different transmission ( 6 speed auto vs. 5 speed). It is interesting to note that the 6 speed auto in the IS 350 is not ECT-i that means it is not adaptive. But it still meets ULEV II emissions. Maybe Toyota/Lexus should consider using this transmission in its FWD V6 cars. Just a thought.

bkinblk1 · November 2005

First arbitrator (after riding in the car), said my concern regarding the hesitation was "valid". The second arbitrator, said the hesitation was intentional and bulit into the design of the transaxle in order to insure the safety of the drivetrain. Whatever that means. I lost both arbitrations, however it did not deter the top notch lemon law firm that took my case. Everyone knows that Toyota pays the arbitrators for their time and "objective" decisions.

scoti1 · November 2005

It doesn't make sense at all. But if it is intentially designed in to the car, then it sounds like "design flaw" to me.

Did you ever forward your results to NHTSA? Are you proceeding with the lemon lawyer? Keep us updated.

bkinblk1 · November 2005

I am proceeding with confidence toward a satisfactory result.

wwest · November 2005

its to simulate the double-clutching procedure many "sick" drivers use to "ease" the downshift gear meshing....

wwest · November 2005

Senior moment...

Boy, do I feel idiotic...

But at least I caught my mistake...Finally!

It was 05Camry in the twin cities that I meant to offer the modified MAF/IAT too via Fedx if I had an address.

So, are you still out there?

toolate2 · November 2005

Thanks for your comments. I agree with you that Vancouver is one of the most livable cities in North America but there are some great places to live south of the 49th as well  but my wife would rather get home in the evenings than sightsee. If you fly into vancouver you are welcome to try the problem for yourself. I am not against the big T as some of the other commentators have suggested, nor have I rushed to judgment on this one. But when you have a problem you have a problem. The reaction from the service people is that mine is the first reported case of this kind ever! Rather than beat this one do death just Google engine hesitation and see what you come up with; I am not the Johnny come lately to this issue. Out of deference to out host I will refrain from giving you some websites where the matter is dealt with in rather inflammatory language. There is a lot to like about the Avalon, comfort, performance, smoothness and the fuel economy claims are for real! But when it comes to the issue under discussion which is potentially hazardous, I must raise a red flag. With regard to some of the other commentators there seems to be an unfortunate characteristic to shoot the messenger on the basis that they are new, or have a hidden agenda, which leaves me to conclude that they themselves have a conflict of interest and are representing certain manufacturers. I have a passion for automobiles -we have owned all the European exotics, the luxury Japanese brands as well as the domestics. My most satisfying car was a 2001 Highlander (V6 AWD) for its all round competence but certainly not the most exciting. Previously I very much enjoyed a Buick Riviera which was followed by an Aurora neither of which gave a moments trouble but neither got particular good write-ups in their day. My wifes 2000 Accord V6 had the transmission go after 2 days but Honda stepped up to the plate and replaced it but the design was never a smooth one. Disappointing at the time as she loved her 98 Outback Limited which was the trade. Her Accord 2003 had a five speed automatic which was great but the brakes grabbed and were never really fixed when we traded at 30,000 miles on a 2005 Odyssey Touring  a fine vehicle but not suitable for one person in town which led to the Avalon. I think that Toyota do a better job with NVH than Honda, but Hondas handle better if you want to throw it around corners. But with the conditions of most roads on both sides of the border we decided to opt for comfort. I could go on about my profligate car buying habits, which I justify on the basis of choosing not to own a yacht (unusual for this neck of the woods) but I am trying to settle down, only to extend my midlife crisis be another model year. But what is a boy to do.

Mr_Shiftright · November 2005

too bad, that yacht would make car ownership seem like a money-saving proposition and a trouble-free existence :P

user777 · November 2005

if he's turning vehicles so often, neither yacht or car ownership is an issue... he's not looking to save money is he?

Mr_Shiftright · November 2005

Perhaps we are all searching for the perfect one vehicle but in fact it doesn't exist.

My point was really that even the owner of a yacht gets to have really annoying problems. There is no escape from demonic machinery.

scoti1 · November 2005

Post from someone reporting success with TSB.

gbjerke, "Lexus ES 300/ES 330: Prices Paid & Buying Experience" #1211, 15 Nov 2005 8:04 pm

pilot130 · November 2005

Certainly does to my way of thinking!!!!
It's from the "Tranny Problems With ES 330" Forum.

#841 of 841 Transmission and driving style by es4jb Nov 18, 2005 (7:27 pm)

I now have driven my ES330 for 3500 miles and I have some conclusions about the vehicle. For starters, I don't think there is anything wrong with the car - it's just doing what it was designed to do. Basically the vehicle is a sophisticated computer controlled system which pretty much decides how the engine and transmission work together. We communicate with that system with our hands and feet. In the old days a car had real linkage with the engine so when you pressed down on the accelerator, you "gave it gas". Those days are long gone. Now when you press the accelerator, it's to let the computer know you want to go faster.

I realized that no amount of "reprogramming" is going to make this car "feel" like an old-style vehicle. So I am learning to live with it.

I don't use the "D" drive mode much. I put the car in 4th most of the time and pop into "D" when I want to engage the 5-speed at cruising speeds. I think that the car goes into overdrive much to soon, which feels like less power.

I use premium gas. Yeah, I know, it's expensive, but this car really wants it, and it does make a difference.

I don't use the AUTO mode for air conditioning. I think the AC system drains too much power. I rarely put the blower on high.

These 3 things have made my interactions with the car better. It's not a BMW or a Porsche. It's a comfortable car not a performance vehicle.

wwest · November 2005

IT would make more sense if there weren't other cars, choices, in the marketplace wherein you didn't have to accomodate these engine/throttle hesitation anomalies.

And actually it's pretty clear that the correct "programming" could fix this problem. Give me access to the code and within a week I could provide a fix. Of course Toyota and Lexus would still have to resolve whatever issues that arise with the EPA & CARB.

But right on with the A/C, as of 2001 the RX300 has two c-best options that help to prevent the A/C load and hopefully the instances of sudden windshield fogging that can be hazardous.

pilot130 · November 2005

I think that poster's analogy makes a lot of sense.
Especially since Toyota/Lexus isn't the only manufacturer using DBW technology and having these anomalies reported.
'Nuff said about that.
I note this forum has been quiet again for almost the entire week. I've been away on a fishing trip in Kenora the whole time;looked in today and only one post was all anyone had to say.
It's interesting that regulars often come and go here as a group.
Also spent two hours last Saturday en route in Minneapolis, but it was too short a time to set up a meet with Camry.
Will be going back there at least once more before Christmas.
Also, haven't had an opportunity to talk to my Tranny Tech friend yet. Hopefully next week.

mert2 · November 2005

IOW, to have a better driving experience, I shouldn't use the A/C like it was designed, or drive my car in 'D' like it was designed, or expect it to go when I hit the gas, like it apparently wasn't designed.

The problem is that there are other DBW cars that do act like the old link system cars.

I still haven't had a chance to take it in for the initial maintenance. I'm hoping for improvement when I get the TSB done. I think I can live with a consistent 1 second delay, as long as I can get rid of the herky-jerky at low speeds.

Does anybody know if you have to take it to the dealer where you bought it to have the TSB performed?

scoti1 · November 2005

Does anybody know if you have to take it to the dealer where you bought it to have the TSB performed?

You can take it to any Toyota dealer. Just like when you are getting any warranty-related work performed.

user777 · November 2005

the regulars are still here. we don't come and go as a group.

but when you show up, it does behoove some of us to remind you that we are still here.

have you been reading the posts in the other manufacturer-specific make-specific P+S forums of other people grappling with this issue? they are there.

ask your tranny friend if the information in the link i provided will be of use to him. certainly he can afford a $125 diagnostic tool -> and by spec, I haven't seen anything better for the price for a manufacturer-specific scanner which can interface to a laptop and also capture in real time, manufacturer specific datum. it appears quite slick. wish the company made one for the make of vehicles i drive. i'd buy one, not because i have a problem, but because i'd want to exercise its functionality and learn more about my vehicle's operation.

as you might expect i'm with mert2... automation that forces users to adopt a different means to carry out tasks which are natural and the result of decades and decades of learning, and which don't support a consistent mental cause and effect model are fundamentally broken. any human-factors engineering specialist would agree with this argument.

no, other manufacturers are not having these problems with DBW, and if a particular manufacturer had it in mind to change the way people would use an accelerator and expect their vehicle to respond -> that is extremely far fetched.

and, i don't believe the engineers assigned to test these vehicles post-design, and pre-production would accept this behavior at all. driveability is impaired and customer acceptance is negatively impacted, and the manufacturer would surely address it very quickly before hundreds of thousands of units rolled off the assembly line. if it became evident in a production run, the design would be investigated and altered, or another supplier of components selected to rectify the issue.

I thought we agreed that only a small population of owners have an issue with hesitation (the "group" being overly generous in conceeding this point). you yourself claim there is no hesitation in your vehicle. ok, ok, 'nuff said.

i personally believe you and the reports of numerous others making the same claim.

which means there's something going on here. the posters which do have a problem have a defective vehicle, and the argument that they are designed to hesitate is rather far fetched.

if you argue that the vehicle's response will be a function of driving style, and that conservative drivers are the onl y ones with problems, i've got to say then the "smarts" in the ECU/TCM is pretty dumb. i thought the standard responses were "they are designed this way" or "they all do this"... if that's the case, why wouldn't EVERYONE have the problem?

they don't so that leads someone like myself to conclude, (and giving the manufacturer the most generous benefit of doubt because i know they are quite capable of producing quality, popular and reliable products), that what we are probably seeing is the result of a non-conformance in some part from a supplier, and the location of said part is just too cost or time or effort intensive to lay repairs on the dealer network to correct.

pilot130 · November 2005

Quote:" when you show up, it does behoove some of us to remind you that we are still here."

Ergo: "Our objective as a group, is to have you NOT show up"

That being the case, I'm happy to oblige.
Message received, loud and clear.

user777 · November 2005

pilot. i don't believe you are receiving the message i'm sending.

it behooves us to remind you that we are still here, because you have in the past intimated that we've dissappeared, or that the interest has wained.

personally, i have not dissapeared and my interest level remains very high. i can safely say the same about a number of other members, and I suspect other people we haven't even heard from yet but who are interested in the topic at large.

we are merely monitoring other posters in other manufacturer-specific P+S forums stating their issues with the operation of their transmissions. some but hardly all show up here eventually.

another observation, you have on a number of occasions left (and subsequently come back) with inital departing sentiments that your opinion isn't being valued and you are effectively being run off, so you go.

this is not a genuine reflection of the situation in my opinion. other's who have not been following the complete thread for a long time might think otherwise.

what's nice to see is that you come back. you're obviously interested in the topic, Ergo: you belong here...you're opinion is different (than mine) but you're part of the regulars. other people support your position on the topic.

several people have indicated that your contributions have been very valuable in several respects. i was really hoping you could convince your transmission expert to get one of these devices and try it. i don't doubt he probably doesn't see many of the manufacturer's vehicles we've been discussing here, but when and if he does, the device would no doubt be a good asset to his toolkit. since it can handle other manufacturer specific variables, it is worth a look.

es4jb · November 2005

I'm the one who originally posted "Transmission and Driving Style" to the Lexus forum. You said:

"IOW, to have a better driving experience, I shouldn't use the A/C like it was designed, or drive my car in 'D' like it was designed, or expect it to go when I hit the gas, like it apparently wasn't designed."

On a certain level I agree with you; these "adaptations" are more than I expected out of a $30K+++ luxury vehicle.

However, I have talked with drivers of many Toyota and Lexus vehicles and almost all of them report the same experience. Apparently it just bothers some people and not others.

Sure, it would be better if I could drop into "D" and not bother with "4". But it seems to me that this DBW technology lets me pick my gear and stay there without having to clutch-shift into it. In other words when I drop into 4th, or 3rd, I am telling the car that I want it to go as far as that gear, then stop. To me this seems like a proper way to use the DBW technology.

I still don't know if I am going to do the reprogram. I decided a while back to wait until the 5000 mile service before doing anything. I am monitoring this site to see how people feel about their vehicle after doing the reprogram.

scoti1 · November 2005

A discussion is at least a two-way conversation. If there is nothing being posted, then there is nothing to discuss, therefore it appears that "everyone has disappeared" while in reality we just may be waiting in the wings for someone to post something worthy of discussion. When a topic comes up of general interest, then you will see others joining the discussion "as a group". I see the discussion here as coming in waves. It will be very active for a period over a hot topic item, the interest in that topic wanes so the site quiets down, then a new topic pops up and the activity level rises again. This is not an anamoly of this board but pretty much every active discussion group.

pilot130 · November 2005

Thanks for the eulogy.
But, and there's always a "but."
What I said was, the message was loud and clear, and I'd be glad to oblige if that's the case.
Don't take that to mean I'm outta here. (In spite of the wishes of some!)
A break, perhaps, but not abandonment.
Forums like this one are great places to give opinion, exchange information, and yes, even editorialize about one's likes or dislikes about automobiles.
They're open to partisan, and occasionally reasonable discussion.
My interests are the latter. Always have been. No more, no less. Some of you don't seem to see it that way.
Discussions here are often entertaining, frequently maddening, and occasionally thought provoking.
However, when opinion masquerades as fact, and alledged claims about widespread problems, irresponsible design flaws, and deadly conseqences are shot full of of irrelevant supporting myths, the balance tips toward bias, untruth, and hidden agendas in the name of open discussion.
That's not the way to be helpful, nor is it the way to to make intelligent decisions about this issue or anything else.
It's been said we are all ignorant, just on different subjects.
My skepticism towards some of what is said here increases each time intentioned posters start with an outcome and fit the story to it.
Like most folks, myself included, the public audience here is largely apathetic, but it doesn't take well to being misled.
So, for that reason, and for the time being at least, I choose to back off and let this forum go where it needs to be.
I did finally get to visit with my tech friend this morning, and he rather pointedly suggested I would be wasting both our efforts in attempting to convince any of you that his advice on this issue is worthy of use in this discussion.
I think he's right.

user777 · November 2005

no eulogy from me. like i said, i want you to stick around. thanks for the clarification.

i know we've encouraged you before to provide us with the wisdom of your tech friend, but you haven't done the topic justice. please start by convincing me that all DBW systems operate in this way. i'm sorry, i don't see it.

did you talk your tech friend about the OBD device with computer interface? if he's got a laptop, it would be a good thing for him to have. i'm curious to know if he uses one. i imagine he doesn't think he needs one based on his experience with transmissions. if that was the case, i'll accept that.

wwest · November 2005

a modified MAF/IAT setting on my desk at the office in case someone who is experiencing this symptom wants to give it a try.

billran · November 2005

I am still here too pilot. I check in because I am interested in this topic, being an owner of a car that has the drivetrain in question, but one that does not exhibit any hesitation problems. I am still bewildered by the fact that 80% of the posts in this forum are by people who don't actually own one of the hesitating vehicles and have never personally experienced the specific hesitation being discussed. As you know, those are mostly the regulars you speak of.

I would have to agree however with most of what user777 posted above. It does indeed appear to be a real problem that luckily only seems to affect a small percentage of cars.

ecotrklvr · November 2005

Hi -

I still read every post, and am NOT bothered when there are no posts for a few days. The silence means quite a bit. For example, bkinblk's got nothing more to write, until his lawyer(s) results are known. Some people simply don't speak unless they have something to say - but plenty of people I know simply never shut up (co-worker Bob - I'm talking about YOU!). I'm amazed that anyone would be bothered by "no news"; but then again, I'm still amazed that anyone would bother to read and/or post here, that doesn't either have the problem, or at least believe that it exists and is a problem for those that have it.

The fact that its existence can't be "proven" online, in this (or any) forum, newspaper article, or magazine, is not a very good reason to doubt. I've never had a multi-million dollar-winning lottery ticket, and don't know anyone who has. But I do believe it happens. Rare events occur, even if they don't happen to me.

hylyner · November 2005

Pow'ful words Pilot! Appreciate what you said in post 2240.
I hope there are others who feel the same way. You said it right:
**When opinion masquerades as fact, and alledged claims about widespread problems, irresponsible design flaws, and deadly conseqences are shot full of of irrelevant supporting myths, the balance tips toward bias, untruth, and hidden agendas in the name of open discussion.
That's not the way to be helpful, nor is it the way to to make intelligent decisions about this issue or anything else. Skepticism towards some of what is said here increases each time intentioned posters start with an outcome and fit the story to it.**
Those things you wrote concern me when I see them. That's why I speak out from time to time.I would like to add one more thing to your list. I hope I can be as articulate as you did.
**When cynicism and attitude are used to intimidate others in discussions, it raises concerns about motives by those who use it**

mert2 · November 2005

Well, since no one else seems interested... let me have the TSB performed, and if that doesn't clear it up I'll give it a try. I was ready to have the TSB performed a few weeks ago, but life keeps getting in the way.

billran · November 2005

hylyner and Pilot,

I could not agree more. I will be the first to admit that there appear to be owners out there with genuine problems (and I only say "appear" because I cant verify it personally, but take the complaints as they are stated). I am consistently dismayed by what you mention above, and even more so when those types of statements are posted by someone who does not own, and has never even driven, one of the cars they are calling "unsafe".

scoti1 · November 2005

mert2, I am anxious to hear how the TSB works for you. There have certainly been mixed results. I have not read of the problem getting worse after having the reflash, so I don't think there is any harm done in giving it a go. Keep us posted.

wwest · November 2005

"....but take the complaints as they are stated."

"....consistently dismayed......"

You seem to be saying that absent direct knowledge otherwise you accept the complaints as being valid.

Yet you also say that conclusions others make under the same "validity basis" are not valid, or should not be spoken out loud, "published".

Personally I will always believe 2+2=4.

If one considers the complaints as being valid conclusions of the results of the complaint, logically presented, should also be valid until proven otherwise.

Otherwise you're saying that sometimes 2+2 doesn't equal 4.

Mr_Shiftright · November 2005

I think it's the old "anecdotal" argument. By "anecdotal", that doesn't imply a put-down or a lack of validity. What is means is that none of these personal experiences have been subjected to any kind of scientific scrutiny. Near as I can tell, no one has even measured the "delay" electronically. Maybe it feels like 2 seconds but is really .3 of one second? How can we possibly know? What is the incremental scale for "dangerous"? That's another problem.

Sometimes when I catch myself describing a fault in my car it starts to sound more like a medical complaint.

Now if the number of personal experiences were massive, and each person experienced the same thing, well that would be pretty darn convincing "anecdotal" data....every time I stick my finger in that flame, it hurts....yeah, we all agree on that....

scoti1 · November 2005

Even if someone were to measure the delay electronically, their reporting of their findings would still be anecdotal.

Mr_Shiftright · November 2005

True, we'd need multiple measurements by an impartial third party, which might not even be Toyota!

wwest · November 2005

But we should keep in mind, always, and ALL of us, that the TSB validates and/or verifies, explicitly, the very circumstances under which these "delays" occur. Therefore IMMHO there can be no validity to anyone questioning those who post complaints of this nature.

Seeing it in black and white under Toyota's own "signature" should remove any remaining doubts regarding the validity of these owner complaints.

So, NOW may we get on with exploring, proposing, a
solution...??

And while I'm here let's not forget that Toyota itself documents the shifting time from neutral to drive as being in the range of one second or more. So shifting out of a higher gear into a lower one could easily be in the range of 2 seconds. Then an "Oops "along the way, as in that wasn't a low enough gear initially selected now that the driver has just depressed the gas pedal a touch farther due to initial lack of response from the engine.

5th, to 4th and then maybe 3rd or even 2nd, two seconds or more, easy.

scoti1 · November 2005

Therefore IMMHO there can be no validity to anyone questioning those who post complaints of this nature.

....and yet the same people bring it up time and again.

Thanks to you and user777 using your technical know-how to try to figure out a way to document what is happening and find a solutionl. I could care less whether or not you own one of the vehicles in question, you are certainly one of the more diligent posters in working towards a solution.

Mr_Shiftright · November 2005

Well no one is questioning whether the person is having the experience of hesitation, they are (some are anyway) questioning whether the experience is what they think it is. If you don't allow scrutiny of your evidence, then you may very well miss the solution.

So why can't say an outsider like Mr. X question whether the hesitation is ignition related, or fuel related and perhaps not a software or transmission issue at all?

More branches, more possible answers.

scoti1 · November 2005

No problem there. If we all agree it exists then we can get a lot farther than bickering over whether it really is a problem.

Toyota has suggested the software fix (the TSB).

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