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2011 Honda CR-Z

nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,695
So, is anyone as interested in this model as I am? Reports are wild on the internet right now: it will be a 2010 model, it will be a 2011 or 2012, it will be priced under $20K, it could be priced at $30K or more, it will or will not be a hybrid, and most importantly, it may not come to America at all!

Regardless of the other stuff, I really hope the last one isn't true. Honda should SO have brought back the CRX long before now. Me, I know I would be at the head of the line for one, provided it has really good fuel economy. And hey, it's a 2-seater for which they are targeting a curb weight of 2500 pounds or less, so how much gas could it really consume?!

The most recent concept model not only looks great, it looks mostly DONE, like Honda could really put this on the market as soon as next summer (as a 2010 model). But please skip the 19" rims, Honda! :-)

Here are some articles giving information on this model:

http://blogs.motortrend.com/6230455/car-news/europe-to-be-main-market-for-produc- tion-honda-cr-z-hybrid/index.html

http://www.leftlanenews.com/honda-to-launch-cr-z-hybrid-in-europe-by-2010.html

http://4wheelsblog.com/prototypes/honda-crx-will-be-hybrid-in-2011

So what does everyone think? Is there still a market for sporty 2-seaters? Would you want to see a hybrid, or would a gas-powered model be fine? And how much would you be willing to spend - $20K, $25K, more?

Having had a couple of the old CRXs, I know they are worth their weight in gold, and I only wish I hadn't got rid of my '88 SI. $20-25K wouldn't be too much to spend for me, if it could provide the fun of the older models.

2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

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Comments

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Posts: 4,341
    I think it should be offered in standard form, for those who value the attributes associated with lighter weight and low price over the lowest fuel consumption, and a hybrid version, for those that put the highest priority on fuel economy.

    I also believe Honda will offer a Civic-size hybrid sedan or four door hatchback, to compete with the Prius.

    I'm very interested in the '09 (next generation) Fix, and would love to see the upcoming CRX based on the Fix platform. I'm not encouraged that this won't happen, though.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,695
    Well, among the many rumors I have read was the tidbit that they DO expect to base the CRZ on a shortened '09 Fit platform. So you may get your wish! Certainly, that would be encouraging from the point of view of keeping price down and increasing the likelihood that it will be sold in America.

    I agree with you that they should offer a base model with a gas engine for lower price, as well as a higher-priced hybrid.

    They have promised that by 2010 they will have one model with a hybrid powertrain priced below $20K - this CRZ could be it, or they could come up with a more direct Prius challenger with a $19,995 price tag.

    I also wouldn't mind seeing them offer a CRZ 'HF' like the CRX HF of old, but I know that is asking for too much. Honda is going hybrid for fuel savings these days, not employing its old tricks for that purpose.

    In terms of your light weight comment, I kinda hope they offer a version with crank windows and other equipment reductions so they can keep the weight really low.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Posts: 4,341
    The old CRX HF was geared very high. As such, it delivered excellent fuel economy, but at the expense of "fun-to-drive." The slower acceleration wasn't so much the issue as the driving dynamics, in terms of feel and sound, resulting from the tall gearing. The upshot is that I'd prefer a light hybrid (such as GM offers in certain models) to very tall gearing, for extra fuel economy.

    If you were offered the choice of, (A) a standard CR-Z; (B) a HF version (both at the same or similar price); (C) a hybrid version, at a higher price, which would you choose? I'd probably choose (A), for the fun-to-drive factor, plus good, but not stellar, fuel economy. I might go for (C) if the driving dynamics weren't too adversely affected by the hybrid's greater weight, but I'd take a pass on (B).

    I wouldn't hold my breath for crank windows. I think that Honda has positioned itself as a manufacturer of economical, but not cheap, vehicles, which precludes these types of manual devices for the vehicles it sells in the developed countries, at least.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,695
    Even today you can buy a Civic with crank windows. If this is going to be an economical, sub-$20K model, I could see the base model having crank windows for weight reduction. That's a great way to reduce weight and long-term maintenance cost, another is manual outside mirrors.

    One of the ways Honda got the old HFs and HXs to burn less gas was by making the fuel/air mixture very lean, which causes elevated NOx emissions, so I wouldn't expect anything like that in the future with smog standards tightening all the time.

    If they end up making two versions of the car, one with a gas engine and one a hybrid, I would go for the hybrid at a $2000 premium as long as the weight stayed nice and low and it saved at least 25% in fuel vs the gas model. I'm looking for a 50 mpg car to replace my current car, and as much as I would like to think that Honda could get to 50 mpg on gas alone with weight reductions and sophisticated engine management, I don't think they can. Now with a hybrid powertrain, I bet they could, and maybe go even further.

    One thing I really love about this car is the looks - looks better to me than the Civic coupe, while mimicking some of its lines for a family resemblance.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Posts: 4,341
    I'm not too crazy about the styling. I prefer the styling of the Kia coup concept that's likely to go into production (can't remember the model name at this time).
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Posts: 4,341
    The Kia coupe concept I'm thinking about is called the Koup (appropriately enough).
    Based on the pictures, I prefer the styling of the Kia over the Honda.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,695
    the production car will have smaller rims...I kinda like it, even though I am still a fan of the boxy style of the last CRX. This one looks similar in some ways to the RSX, when that was still around.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Posts: 4,341
    "TOKYO -- Honda’s president says the Japanese automaker will sell a new, improved and affordable gas-electric hybrid in the U.S., Japan and Europe starting early next year.

    Takeo Fukui told reporters that “green” cars, especially hybrids, will be a pillar of Honda’s strategy for the next three years, starting this fiscal year that began April 1. He did not say what the price of the vehicle would be. But he said the new hybrid will be a five-door sedan seating five passengers, and it will feature new technology that reduces the size and weight of the hybrid system to increase fuel efficiency.

    “Hybrids have drawn attention for their image, but time has come to go to the next step,” he said, stressing that Honda was serious about selling hybrids in numbers.

    Honda plans to sell 500,000 hybrids per year sometime after 2010, he said.

    To expand hybrid sales, Honda will introduce a new sporty hybrid based on the CR-Z model, a Civic hybrid and a hybrid model of the Fit subcompact, which is sold as the Jazz in Europe, in addition to the new hybrid going on sale next year, Fukui said."

    As for the Acura Division, separately I read that Honda believes that hybrids work best for Civic-size and smaller cars, while diesels are preferable for larger vehicles. From this it looks like Acura will look to diesels for fuel economy gains. The TSX will offer a diesel engine option next year. Unfortunately, in the U.S., unlike in Europe, some of the diesel's fuel economy advantage is offset by high diesel fuel prices. The price for diesel was $497.99/gallon at one station I drove past several days ago, so the benefits of diesel over regular gasoline, especially, but even compared to premium, are significantly diminished.

    With oil over $130/barrel this morning we can probably expect to see diesel fuel at >$5 at many stations.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,695
    they are very serious about offering a hybrid version of the CR-Z, when it arrives. This new hybrid 5-door (not the CR-Z, a different model) expected to arrive next spring and undercut the Civic hybrid in price will probably end up being their lowest-priced hybrid model. I would expect the CR-Z hybrid to cost more, maybe as much as a base Prius (but with a completely different mission from the Prius).

    But hey, the best part of this news is merely the fact that with this announcement, Honda seems a lot more committed than it has been to bringing the CR-Z to the U.S. I like that kind of news! :-)

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • biker4biker4 Posts: 746
    The cost of diesel is meanigless unless you compare to its relative gains. If gas is $4/gal and diesel is $4.50/gal that's a 13% premium, but guess what, most diesels have a 20% fuel mileage gain over a similar gasser. So you have to compare the mileage increase in % terms vs. the % increase in fuel costs - not the absolute numbers. As the price of gas and diesel go up and the spread between them stays constant (50-70 cents) the case for diesel gets better (cause the % increase in fuel price goes down while the fuel mileage % gain stays the same).

    Also, that large spread between gas and diesel is somewhat artificial due to different tax rates (diesel has more taxes) and profit margin (big oil makes virtually no profit on distilling gas while making 25 cents/gal distilling diesel). I expect that spread to narrow in the long term.
  • aspesisteveaspesisteve Posts: 833
    i'm not sure how diesel plays into the part about being green

    while diesel has gotten cleaner over the years, it's still alot dirtier than the ULEV cars that Honda offers today. Try going for a run in France and you're lungs will tell you diesel sucks.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,695
    there won't be a diesel version of the CRZ. They will go hybrid instead with this one. They are saving the diesels for their larger models.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,695
    had its "OSM" concept car on display at the London auto show, which looks to be closely related to the CRZ, only the convertible version of it.

    This car looks really nice. Here's an article that has some good pics of the OSM, as well as some of the CRZ:

    http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/car_shopping/latest_news_reviews/h- - onda_osm_concept_car_news+view-photos.html

    One other thing: whenever Honda makes new mention of this car, they talk about how "eco-friendly" its powertrain will be. Hopefully it is nice and low in weight when it finally arrives, then a small hybrid powertrain would be perfectly adequate, and 50 mpg might be in order (dare I hope)!

    Edit...here's the link to the short article that went with the photos:
    http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/car_shopping/latest_news_reviews/h- onda_osm_concept_car_news

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • biker4biker4 Posts: 746
    Try going for a run in France and you're lungs will tell you diesel sucks.
    Actually, I have, and my lungs say different.

    The diesels of today are not any dirtier than ULEV cars - they can't be, they have to meet the same emission rules as gassers. This is why so many diesels were delayed in the US market - to get them ready for ULSD (introed 10/07) and lower emission rules.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,695
    to announce upcoming release of the CRZ, so despite a dearth of specifics on any of the specs and recent news on this model of any kind, it seems it is still in the works for U.S. release next year. The latest mention of it came at the Paris auto show last week when they showed the new Insight:

    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/10/honda-reveals-i.html

    Honda also plans for upcoming launches of a new sporty hybrid based on the CRZ and a Jazz Hybrid...

    http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=792284

    The Paris stand will also see the CR-Z, a small sports concept car, which shows Honda's future direction of offering small petrol electric hybrids across a number of niches, in order to broaden their appeal. The CR-Z will form the basis of a new small coupe hybrid that will join the growing Honda hybrid line-up and further broaden the appeal of low CO2 vehicles. The sporty 2+2 uses the split level glass rear window, which has been used through three decades in the CR-X, the original Insight coupe and more recently the Civic 3 and 5-door.

    I hope they don't introduce the CRZ ONLY with a hybrid powertrain. If they make it light enough they could also plug in the powertrain from the Fit, and it should be able to exceed Fit's fuel economy just running on gas.

    I wonder if the debut date for the CRZ will slip back now that the economy has taken such a turn for the worse. I know they are holding firm to the April '09 release date for the Insight. The original indication was that the CRZ would be released Fall '09. I see that nowhere at the Paris show were they talking dates for the release of the CRZ. :-(

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • dweiserdweiser Posts: 288
    I'm German and I'd replace the Porsche Boxster (which I like) in my garage with the Honda CR-Z in a heartbeat.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,695
    With its very light weight, I'm sure the CRZ hybrid will do better than 50 mpg combined, even under the new EPA testing regimen. I would hope for 60 mpg, but would I be hoping for too much?

    The powertrain currently makes 40/45 in the Civic, but of course that car weighs hundreds and hundreds of pounds more than the weight they are targeting for the CRZ. With all those pounds shed, CRZ could probably rely more of the time on the electrics and burn less gas as a result.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,695
    Honda Motor Co. plans to launch a hybrid CR-Z sporty sedan for the 2011 model year. Dealers have asked Honda to produce a gasoline-powered version as well.

    Honda is considering a gasoline version, says Dan Bonawitz, vice president of automobile corporate planning and logistics for American Honda Motor Co. But he was not enthusiastic.


    I don't mind if the CRZ is only sold as a hybrid, but I'm afraid that if it is going to use the same IMA powertrain as the current Civic, as has been rumored, there will be no manual version. How can they sell a sport coupe without a stick shift?

    Skip the gasoline model if you must, Honda, but whatever you do don't skip the manual!!

    http://cnet.nytimes.com/8301-13746_7-10106571-48.html

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • In the uk we are getting different messages for the CRZ, one dealer has told me that the CRZ will be released in Europe first one year ahead of the US market. I have also been informed that it will have a 1.5 high torque IMA power unit and will do 0 to 60 in 5.7 seconds. There are also roomers of a synchronous gear box with paddle change. This I am told it will be 2009/10 after the launch of the insight. I hope Honda doesn’t fudge the looks of this car when it goes into production they have a winner here so don’t throw it away Mr. Honda.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,695
    Well that's fabulous performance, but I don't want paddle shifters, I want a conventional 3-pedal manual. I am still crossing my fingers, but if this model continues to be part of Honda's much-touted new hybrid plan, they may forget the manual and offer only an auto-IMA combo.

    In which case my interest in it would be at an end. :-(

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • Yes I agree have driven the Civic hybrid and its an old ladies car because of the gearbox, if you put a bigger power unit in it still will be no fun to drive.
    Honda can make or break the CRZ by not doing things like not putting in a manual gear box or putting smaller wheels on it and by sticking the new Insight dash and seating in.
    Have a nasty feeling that what we see now will not materialize and we will end up with a two door sporty Insight in which case time to find something better for your next new car.
    Let’s hope Honda read these blog’s and that Honda is the power of dreams and not just wishful thinking.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,695
    Yes, a 2-door version of the Insight is my worst nightmare of what this car could become by the time it is released.

    Now the original Insight also had IMA, but it had a stick. And folks have said it was actually fairly fun once you put proper rolling stock on it (space in the wheel wells was a limiting factor due to the tiny size of the stock rims) and bigger sway bars front and back, and removed the silly air dams covering the rear wheels.

    That IMA powertrain had a smaller engine than the current Civic hybrid does. Rebuild the 2000 Insight, with the bigger motor, the proper chassis upgrades, and the stick it had before as at least an option, and you could really be TALKING.

    Of course, the original Insight was made entirely of aluminum or something, which would be impossible this time around, so keeping weight down will be the crucial challenge.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • The reason I think that the CRZ will not look as it does at present is because it’s not what they now call pedestrian friendly I think that the European Civic shape may well creep in.
    Better still would be the OSM shown at the UK motor show this year this is a real stunner but I think this is the fore runner for the replacement S2000 and that’s a long way off, I could be wrong and it turns out to be a CRZ convertible (but there I go again dreaming).
    The IMA system is a sound idea as long as its matches the power out put of the gas engine by at least 25/30% that would give a 1.5 or 1.6 power unit quiet some kick but if the end of the day it looks naff what’s the point?

    No it has to have a conventional manual gear change for me, if Honda does not make the grade with the CRZ then I think it will be a Audi TT for me.
    Here is a report on the CRZ done by Auto express (.co.uk) in July. By Dan Strong
    July 2008
    Thinking about buying a compact coupé? You might want to wait for this... It’s Honda’s stunning new CR-Z.

    This week, the company announced that the car will go on sale in 2010. To find out what we can expect, Auto Express caught up with it in more detail at an exclusive photoshoot.

    The coupé is a modern interpretation of the original CR-X – but with a bold nose and recessed headlamps inspired by the very latest designs from Honda’s new-car line-up. Yet it promises to be more than a pretty face – under the skin is an advanced hybrid engine. Although the firm remains tight-lipped about the exact nature of the unit, our sources report that it will be tuned for performance.

    It’s also likely to be based on Honda’s latest-generation i-VTEC technology, making this the world’s highest-revving engine to be used with an electric motor.

    Expected to use the chassis developed for the Japanese Civic, the car will get all-round independent suspension and the latest platform technology. Utilising such a chassis should also allow engineers to fit Honda’s new 2.2-litre diesel, as well as the 2.0 petrol engine currently in the Civic Type R.
    FIRST OPINION
    With sales of the CR-Z tipped to start in less than 18 months’ time, it’s clear coupé drivers face some hard decisions about how they spend their money in a hotly contested market. Honda’s hybrid expertise means the newcomer is sure to excite on the road. More than that, though, it will set a fresh benchmark for hybrid vehicles – proving these engines can offer much more than refinement and fuel economy.

    AT A GLANCE
    Engine: 1.6-litre hybrid
    Power: 200bhp (est)
    0-60mph: 7.0 seconds (est)
    Standard equipment:
    Petrol-electric hybrid engine, electric windows, automatic cruise control, collision mitigation braking system, air-conditioning
    Economy: 45mpg (est)
    Price: £21,000 (est)
  • here is more for you to paw over from infosoldier . com
    Production Honda CR-Z hybrid coupe to hit Europe first

    Filed under: Coupes, Hybrids/Alternative, Euro, Green, HondaClick above to view high-res gallery of the Honda CR-Z ConceptMore news from the front lines of Honda's hybrid offensive. Honda CEO Takeo Fukui revealed in January that a production hybrid based on the CR-Z Concept shown in Tokyo last year was on its way. Looks like Europeans will be the first to partake of the spiritual successor to the much missed CR-X when it goes on sale there first around the end of the decade. The original CR-X was a small, lightweight hatchback that by virtue of its size was a fun car despite its small, efficient engine. Likewise, we expect the production CR-Z coupe to be small, fun and efficient, but this time utilize Honda's updated Integrated Motor Assist hybrid system to make it happen. Honda UK manager of product planning Mark Turner told Automotive News Europe that the production CR-Z hybrid would be priced around €25,000, with a high-end model cresting €28,000. Since Europe will be the car's most important market, Honda UK will have a voice in the car's development, including its design. Engineering for the car is also being carried out at Honda's R&D facility in Germany. Turner added that a gasoline version of the CR-Z would be considered if there were demand for it. The CR-Z will join Honda's upcoming ground-up global hybrid, as well as a new Civic Hybrid, in late 2009 or early 2010. If Honda hopes to sell half a million hybrids by 2011 like it claims, expect all three to also be available in the United States.Gallery: Honda CR-Z Concept[Source: Automotive News Europe, sub. req'd, Photo by Koichi Kamoshida/Getty] Permalink | Email this | Comments
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,695
    Well if we end up with a CRZ that looks a lot like the OSM concept, I will be quite pleased. :-)

    When it comes to engine offerings, I suspect that the info we get from Europe won't have a lot of bearing on what we get in the States. American Honda has a lot to do with that, and they won't be pushing very hard for manuals or diesels, I'm sure.

    If we are really lucky we will get a hybrid and a non-hybrid for engines, and a manual option at least on the sportiest trim. At least that would be my guess.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • Well time will tell, hope that Honda pulls all the stops out on this one, I would like the 2.2 Diesel with a 6 speed manual box or the 2lt R type both should go like hell.
    Will post more when i have more to tell.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Posts: 4,341
    According to Automotive News, Honda has cancelled plans for a drop top version of the CR-Z.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,695
    Yes, and apparently they are still very gung-ho for hybrids, even as practically everything else in the pipeline gets cancelled. My hopes are fading that there will be anything but a hybrid, automatic CRZ offered. :-(

    Give us a gas version, Honda! Give it the 1.5 from the Fit with a 6-speed manual, geared for gas savings if you must. But don't make it auto-only, whatever you do.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Posts: 4,341
    I prefer a 5-speed manual to a 6-speed. Five speeds are sufficient if the gears are properly spaced. For my driving, I don't need close ratios, making the sixth gear superfluous.

    Six speeds is okay for an automatic.

    I, too, would like to see a gasoline only version of the CR-Z, and if the convertible has been nixed, then how about a coupe?
  • Mr. Honda weather it be UK or US is playing this close to the chest, clever marketing or maybe they don’t know, Will they give their customers what they want or will they give us what they think we would like that’s the question.
    At the end of the day it’s a Japanese decision and some times they do strange things.
    There is no fun in a car that has the most unresponsive gearbox (like in the presant Civic Hybrid and will be in the new Insight) even with the best engine in the world.
    If this is to be a hybrid then I think this type of gearbox will be part of it, that way the engine revs are at the optimal revs for acceleration and de-acceleration for the hybrid drive (discharging and recharging).
    Would you design a sporty body like the CRZ then take away? By then making the transmission un-sporty? I hope not.
    If the CRZ is on the Civic chassis as must be the Insight then there are options for different engines and transmissions.
    Hope some thing will come to light when the Insight goes on sale in May till then I don’t think we will hear much.
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