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Toyota Prius vs VW Golf TDI

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Comments

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,916
    Well I think your BMW experiences say it all. 20-24 mpg would be insult to injury for me. I have friends who do commutes in BMW's and literally every time I talk to them about it (I have gotten wiser, I don't ask anymore) they are buying, just bought or thinking about... buying tires !!?? Indeed I was sort of telling one friend ( BMW owner) about how fast my Honda Civic tires wore out (75,000 miles) and she looked at me quizically. The subject got around to the price (264) and SHE said that is about what I pay for 1. Mileage for her ranged from 15,000 miles to 30,000 miles if she was lucky!!?? I consider myself far harder on cars than her. But that might be a false perception based on the results.

    Again to be fair, the 3,500/4,500 cash for clunkers was actually needed to sell even the most popular of cars Corolla, Civic, Prius.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,035
    Now you have confirmed it. The Prius and Camry are all built on the same MC platform that will be used for the Sienna mini van. The Prius is still 15 inches shorter than the Camry and much closer in size to the Corolla. Has 33% less space for stuff than the VW Jetta Sportwagen. It is great you are happy with your Prius. Hating a car you are driving is not a good way to live. You must understand what my feelings would be each time I went into the garage and a Prius was there. I would feel like I had been sold a studio prop from a 1950s Buck Rogers show. You can get 200 MPG on a Moped. It is still a Moped, just that same as a Prius is still a Prius whether it is 2004 or 2010. It did not improve its looks with the new improved version. It appeals to a narrow band of people that like to look green whether they are or not. Driving a Prius to the Oscars then leaving it in the garage while you drive your Porsche or Bentley does not make you green. It was all a publicity gimmick by Toyota that worked. It sucked you and John into the fold. Buy a Prius and pick up chicks like DeCaprio. :P
  • How it does in a race track? (boy nothing is as exciting as a dull TDI or hybrid econo boxes on a race track)

    Some of us have to drive a "dull econbox" out of economic necessity, as opposed to a lifestyle choice or fashion statement. Some of those same people enjoy driving a similar set of driving characteristics to those that have more enthusiast oriented vehicles.

    VW Jetta TDI Cup racing series

    I didn't see this for a Prius because it's counter to its goal. The TDI seeks to make driving economical where as the Prius makes you just not want to drive.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,737
    That's what this discussion reminds me of--"Point/Counterpoint" from the classic SNL shows. Just a lot of insults being hurled back and forth. Except Point/Counterpoint was trying to be funny (and was), not a discussion about cars.

    The TDI handles better than the Prius. Those who prefer the TDI are superior to people who prefer the Prius because the TDI drivers love to drive, and the Prius owners hate to drive, and the only reason they own one is so they can shout to the world, "I'm GREEN!". I get it.

    The Prius gets better fuel economy than the TDI. Those who prefer the Prius are superior to those who prefer the TDI because the Prius drivers are saving more of our precious petroleum, while the TDI drivers are miserable in their cramped, unreliable, noisy, smelly cars. I get it.

    Any chance we can move past this poor imitation of "Point/Counterpoint"? :sick:
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,916
    Sure! What's your point? ;) CHOICE is one of mine.

    The answers are pretty easy, allow diesels in for the model lines the oems dont have to jump through extraordinary hoops to bring over. Real English? Allow strict diesel European bin standard cars into the US market.

    A perfect example is the JSW(Jetta Station Wagon gasser that gets app 25 mpg C. vs JSW TDI that gets app 36% better mpg. Both versions are wildly popular. Overall however, the TDI JSW sold 81% !!! US regulators fear the diesel becoming wildly popular. So while not clearly said, there has been an adversarial (anti) diesel policy. This is clearly reflected in the less than 1% passenger diesel populations !!!

    Don't forget in Europe, (on a CHOICE basis) the diesels are upwards of 50% of the passenger vehicle fleet with 70% of new car sales being diesel. With a 20-40% diesel mpg advantage you would think the WHY, might be obvious.

    Hybrids are fighting for just a toe hold share (much less than the US hybrid population @ 2%). And that is with NO ANTI hybrid policy !!!

    Indeed what is wrong with a diesel Prius? (if not for the anti diesel policies?) 35% better (than 50 mpg) isn't hard to take eh? (68 mpg)

    Personally, I think the Japanese have been told, "Don't go there.". Of course they also got the stick translation: these are the possible.... DIRE consequences if you do.....
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla MarylandPosts: 701
    The TDI seeks to make driving economical where as the Prius makes you just not want to drive.

    That just about sums it up in a nutshell. The Prius is for those that find driving a chore while the TDI is for those that like to drive.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,035
    Cars have always brought out the emotions in debaters. I remember my uncles debating GM vs Ford in the 1950s, with much animation. There were diesel haters around here before any hybrids hit our shores. After 11 long years of wanting to see some diesel choices in this country, we are finally getting a dribbling of them. Only to have someone in a goofy looking hybrid tell us we are worthless pieces of crap if we buy one. It is not confined to this forum either. There are hybrid zealots that threaten you by email for the views expressed. Most of the posters here just have different ideas and want to make sure we all understand their point of view. There will not be any real life experience with the USA model of the Golf TDI until they are offered for sale. So most of the rhetoric is speculation.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    OK financial considerations aside I love my dull econobox called a Prius.

    Dont believe it? Then dont believe it.

    Dont believe the 5 years in the row of NUMBER ONE CUSTOMER SATISFACTION figures among Prius owners . Then dont believe it. (Consumers Report)

    Do you believe highest customer satisfaction translates into hating your car. It's your right to believe that too.

    Putting financial considerations at the centre of everything as an auto buff still means there are tons of interesting used performance cars to consider that are far more interesting to drive than both a Golf TDI and God forbid a Prius.

    If I ever drive a car on a race track you wont see me in my Prius. But that does not mean I hate my car. I've never loved a car more than this geeky high tech car that every major auto maker is trying to duplicate even the premium European marques (except for those type of new cars finacial considerations will play a huge role)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,737
    There are hybrid zealots that threaten you by email for the views expressed.

    Maybe if the views were expressed respectfully (on both sides), there would be fewer (or no) threatening emails.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,737
    What is stopping VW and other automakers from importing all the diesel vehicles they want? How are those "US regulators" stopping VW from selling more TDIs here? How are "US regulators" stopping car buyers from buying a TDI if that is what they want?

    Automakers are in business to make a profit. If they see enough demand in a particular market, they'll fill it to increase their profits. VW has done that (but apparently not enough). MB has done that. BMW has done that. There is nothing stopping other automakers from attacking the diesel market in the U.S. if they choose to do so.

    Who has told the Japanese (and might as well include the Korean) automakers not to "go there"? And what would those "DIRE consequences" be if these automakers introduced diesels here, as have other automakers? Why aren't there "DIRE consequences" for VW for selling diesels here?

    Maybe if more energy were focused by fans of diesels on the automakers to provide more of them here, the automakers would respond.

    Consider that a more plausible reason for the less than 1% diesel population in the U.S. is simply that not many buyers want diesels, or the diesels currently available don't fit their needs. That is a lot more realistic to me than some sort of X-Files conspiracy that includes the federal government. And maybe if automakers offered more choices with diesels here, including cars less costly than those currently available, adoption would increase.
  • OK financial considerations aside I love my dull econobox called a Prius.

    Dont believe it? Then dont believe it.

    Dont believe the 5 years in the row of NUMBER ONE CUSTOMER SATISFACTION figures among Prius owners . Then dont believe it. (Consumers Report)

    Do you believe highest customer satisfaction translates into hating your car. It's your right to believe that too.


    I think its totally awesome that you bought something that meets your needs, wants and desires. If it does everything you want it to do, that is fantastic and as Toyota used to say, "who could ask for anything more?"

    But that does not mean I hate my car. I've never loved a car more than this geeky high tech car

    With the heated seat switch on the floor under the center console? Aren't you from somewhere it gets cold?

    That aside, I am glad its a good solution for you. When I see the vehicles on the road I am thankful to those people for the sacrifice they are making in the name of consumption reduction, political statement, or whatever. I have spent quite a bit of time with each generation of Prius and Dewy for that you are a far better man than I. I would rather ride the Cannondale.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    With the heated seat switch on the floor under the center console? Aren't you from somewhere it gets cold?

    I am about the only Canadian who hates heated seats. Cant stand them. For over the last two decades I had heated seats and never used them once. I have layers and layers of clothing over my rump during winter. I dont need to roast my rump no matter how cold it is.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,737
    I've had heated seats in only one car, a 328Ci (with leather, of course). I have to admit I really learned to like those bun warmers, especially on those cold leather seats. On cloth seats, which I prefer to leather, I don't see much value in seat heaters. But if I ever bought another car with leather (I own two of those now, neither with seat heaters), I'd go for the heaters. As for where the switch is located, I don't see that as a big deal as I would only use it when the car is parked.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,035
    I think you have missed several points.

    First most Americans would not know a diesel Golf from a gasser. The TDI means nothing to them. For VW to flood the market with diesels would be a waste of money when they are selling all they have capacity for in the rest of the World. When you add the costly additional hoops that CARB has forced onto the diesel car makers it is further reason to not even bother. Americans likes using more fuel per capita than any other country. Remember Honda tried and failed to bring their very fine diesel to the USA. Again that was the roadblocks put there by CARB. The EPA has become a puppet to CARB if you had not noticed. What California says the rest of the USA has to fall in line with. Which brings me to who controls America? The Oil companies have a fairly strong voice in Washington DC. The whole business is a balancing act. Many products are produced from a barrel of oil. One which will always be there is gasoline. When diesel (heating oil) was all that was used from the process the gasoline was dumped. The EU uses more diesel than gas so they have a glut of gas. We buy that as we are not as educated in this country as to what is the most efficient fuel. Toyota took advantage of that ignorance and built the Prius. So people can still burn less efficient gasoline and get good mileage. Will diesel ever get a foothold here. I doubt it. Would I ever buy a gas vehicle? Not likely. I have seen the light.

    You want to know the real reason Toyota sells the Prius in the USA. CAFE makes it a good deal for them. For every Prius they sell they can sell 4 gas guzzlers that get 20 MPG without any penalties. So "lose a little to make a lot". Should be their ad campaign.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,737
    Well, I guess I am missing several points you stated.

    First most Americans would not know a diesel Golf from a gasser. The TDI means nothing to them.

    I recall earlier posts where it was stated that there was such strong demand for TDIs that dealers can't keep them in stock. Obviously those Americans can tell a TDI from a gasser.

    For VW to flood the market with diesels would be a waste of money when they are selling all they have capacity for in the rest of the World.

    See comment above. Why wouldn't VW want to send more TDIs here to address the big demand for diesels, which has been brought up here? The scarcity of TDIs at dealerships is a sure sign that demand outstrips suppy, right? As for capacity, when an automaker has more demand for its cars than it can satisfy, the natural action is to add more capacity, e.g. build TDIs alongside the new mid-sized VWs in the U.S. as I suggested earlier, with engines sourced from its factory in Mexico or even a U.S. plant (and no, I really don't think VW or any other automaker is scared of the UAW these days).

    When you add the costly additional hoops that CARB has forced onto the diesel car makers it is further reason to not even bother.

    Obviously it didn't stop VW from "bothering". They are able to provide a very-well-equipped TDI here for the low 20s. If they wanted, they could provide a smaller or less-equipped car for well under $20k--very price competitive with ICE compacts like the Corolla and Civic, and undercutting all hybrids except maybe the base Insight.

    Americans likes using more fuel per capita than any other country.

    I don't know that Americans in general like using more fuel per capita than any other country, as they realize there's a bill to be paid for that. And the popularity of fuel-saving vehicles as fuel prices have climbed has shown that Americans really don't like paying for that fuel,

    Remember Honda tried and failed to bring their very fine diesel to the USA. Again that was the roadblocks put there by CARB.

    So you are saying Honda does not have the engineering prowess to build a diesel that meets US regulations, as VW, MB, and BMW have done? I find that hard to believe. Did these CARB regulations include the ones that make diesels much cleaner than they were before? If so, do you see that as a bad thing?

    Many products are produced from a barrel of oil.

    And one of those is diesel fuel.

    So people can still burn less efficient gasoline and get good mileage.

    Since not all of our transportation needs can be sourced from diesel, is that a bad thing? Or are you advocating that the US immediately ban gas-powered vehicles?

    Will diesel ever get a foothold here. I doubt it.

    What do you call the TDI, the 335d, etc.?

    CAFE makes it a good deal for them.

    So you are saying that VW and other automakers that sell diesels here don't benefit under current regulations for selling diesels? If so, that is not right and must be corrected. But I think your attack on Toyota in this regard is unfounded. They sell more fuel-efficient vehicles here than does VW, for example: Yaris, Corolla, Matrix, Camry, as well as their hybrids.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,916
    Backy:

    Again, the "real english:"

    ..."You want to know the real reason Toyota sells the Prius in the USA. CAFE makes it a good deal for them. For every Prius they sell they can sell 4 gas guzzlers that get 20 MPG without any penalties. So "lose a little to make a lot". Should be their ad campaign. "...

    So in effect one whatever (i.e., Prius 45-50 mpg) buys multiple GAS GUZZLERS !!!!! It is a RATIO THANG !!!! Most folks truly do NOT understand this !!! If it were not so, how can upwards of 75% of the passenger vehicle fleet fall below the current "STANDARD" of 27 mpg??????

    Anybody can google this claim (and get the specific wording), but even the EPA has done calculations and put it into "American speak" that a higher percentage of diesel passenger cars will significantly decrease the (imported) demand for oil. What folks really don't realize, even as the MIGHT know, but it is a true mathmatical certainty. So for example of one barrel of oil (42 gals) (for conversational purposes) yields 46% gasoline and 23.4% diesel. the EIA.gov saysSource: EIA March 2004 Data

    So a min of 23% passenger diesel population would drop the demand enormously !! Another kicker: a .50 surcharge is tacked onto the price of gasoline ( RUG to PUG) for the fact that we EXPORT up to 22% of the diesel we refine that should be for cars. (but isn't obviously as the passenger diesel fleet is less than 1%). The other .50 cent surcharge is put on diesel to make it now "COMPETITIVE" with gasoline !!?? How perverse is that????

    Ok, you are the government agencies. Do you want that .50 cent per gal tax from the Prius driver (50 miles./.50 cents or .01 cents a mile) or .50 cents per gal tax from the Tundra driver (15 miles/.50 cents or .0333 cents a mile) Even plainer english, do you want three.(dot) three times more taxes per mile driven?.... OR LESS? So do you want the good news? This is only one line of taxation on D2, RUG to PUG !!!!!
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,737
    Amazing this report wasn't buried by the anti-diesel conspirators in Washington, eh? ;)

    Edit (since ruking1 edited his post after I entered mine): I am wondering if there is sufficient refinery capacity to support 23% of US cars being diesel. Perhaps we export diesel to support the diesel appetites in Europe? Do you suppose they will use more gas compared to diesel as we increase our use of diesel by 23 times what it is today? I doubt it. Unless capacity can increase to meet this new demand, we either won't have enough diesel fuel or prices will skyrocket to the point where it will be economically a tough sell vs. gas.

    One thing that mystifies me about this whole debate is the lack of understanding that having both gas/electric hybrid options and diesel options is a good thing. It should not be an either/or proposition.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,916
    Or they might be correct in figuring the American public will not figure out the ramifications of something hidden in plain site. Let alone demand the removal of the .50 cent extra per gal of gasoline and diesel.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,035
    Why wouldn't VW want to send more TDIs here to address the big demand for diesels, which has been brought up here?

    Simple answer. The American public is fickle. VW did not want a glut of diesels when the price of diesel exceeds RUG or when fuel prices are low. They watched Toyota sit on lots full of Prius when the price of gas dropped. Dribbling them in keeps the price up and supply low. VW did make money while Toyota lost $billions. Trying to anticipate the American buyer can be disastrous. Look at the D3.

    So you are saying Honda does not have the engineering prowess to build a diesel that meets US regulations, as VW, MB, and BMW have done?

    Evidently not. They were all press releases about the Honda diesels coming to the USA. They failed the EPA test with the automatic transmission and gave up. They are still trying to break into the EU market with their diesel. Maybe someday. They do need a competitor for the Camry hybrid.

    So you are saying that VW and other automakers that sell diesels here don't benefit under current regulations for selling diesels? If so, that is not right and must be corrected. But I think your attack on Toyota in this regard is unfounded.

    VW and Honda sell very few guzzlers compared to the D3 and Toyota. You may get a better understanding reading this WSJ article. Toyota does not build the Prius because they are looking out for the environment. In fact many studies show the Prius to be more damaging in the manufacturing than non hybrid cars.

    Fuel Standards Are Killing GM
    Sales of Toyota's Prius, Yaris, Corolla and Scion, for example, allow and encourage Toyota to market more Lexus 460s, Sequoia SUVs and Tundra pickups in the U.S. without incurring fines. Hyundai's success selling Accent and Elantra compacts allows it to sell 368-horsepower Genesis sedans.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124649332091983175.html

    What do you call the TDI, the 335d, etc.?

    They are niche vehicles just as the hybrids are. With the exception of the Prius.
  • Man - I had no idea what I was getting into by following this thread.

    You guys literally pull each sentence out of a post and over analyze it. Crazy not to mention time consuming.

    TDI's are cool. Hybrids are pretty darn cool too - but they aren't fun to drive nor are they attractive to look at so the cons outway the pros FOR ME. MPG top priority? Prius baby - all the way. MPG and some fun driving, with a normal looking exterior? TDI baby - all the way.

    The funny thing is no one, and I mean NO ONE, is going to cross the fence because of something someone says in this thread - so sometimes I wonder why we waste our time, figureatively speaking.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,916
    ..."is going to cross the fence "....

    Well at one time, US TDI owners drove gassers? MOST still do drive gassers!? Same with hybrid owners? For shame, some even drive TDI's and hybrids?
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,916
    The manual Honda Accord DID meet the so called 50 state diesel US regulations. But true to form, the US market requires mandates the overwhelming number of products that consume more fuel like... automatic transmissions. Since there were probably no advantages and incentives, etc., for Honda to sell their very fine 6 spd manual diesels here in the US market, they decided the potential gain was not worth the time, effort and logistics allocations, etc, etc., to certify the package (6 speed manual AND 6 speed automatic) Now there are some pretty interesting policy options that can be creatively set and implemented, but I don't want to be accused of rambling, if nobody is interested.

    Incidently, Honda is having "challenging times" selling its cTDI products in European markets. European diesels are considered to be and have been demonstrated to be much better than Asian oems. Hybrids in that market are almost "like Edsels." The sidebar "near" disaster story: since new car sales in Europe are 70% diesel with the passenger diesel population over 50%, Honda's (for example but Japanese oem's as a category" lack of @ least ONE (1) sophisticated diesel was/is devastating. Most European car models have MULTIPLE diesel options to chose from !!!

    So if the(Honda) gassers options are a strong suit, they are of course selling to a minority gasser / (slash) minority (everybody else sells gassers too) market. So in effect, the Japanese oems in Europe are like the D3 here; but probably worse off. They flat didn't and for the large part still do not make cars the majority of folks wanted to.... buy !!!??

    So as a philosophical side bar macro comment: Europe despite having the reputation as being a "LESS than free market" (socialistic on one side of the argument) unlike America's reputation as having some of the MOST FREE markets, actually has much more competition and car product offerings(actual FREER markets) that the so call "FREE American markets"

    It almost seems to be a state secret here, but I am curious what the Prius mpg is at autobahn speeds of say 100-125 mph.

    In comparison, I have run a TDI for 6.25 hours, going 584 miles and taking on 12.1 gal of fuel for 48.26 mpg. I have done this @ altitude (6,500 ft, 2,200 ft, sea level , etc.).
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,933
    Dewey, I'm taking all the credit for convincing you to change from BMW to Toyota. I guess those years of arguing finally paid off, eh? :)

    I am looking forward to seeing how you like the Prius over the coming winter months. At this point I would probably opt for a small diesel over a hybrid but I have never been sold on VW.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,916
    ..."but I have never been sold on VW"...

    Another reason why I have been an advocate of... more choice....
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,035
    The diesel Honda Accord for USA was suppose to lack the urea bladder that exists in German models.

    So far only the 6 cylinder diesels from Germany are using urea to meet the NoX requirements. The 4 cylinders from VW and Audi have a different means of passing the emissions test. It was assumed that Honda would pass with flying colors. They assumed too much it would seem. So now all they have are a couple poor selling hybrids. The new Prius is kicking butt on the new Honda Insight. What was Honda thinking? To gain market share on the Prius it should have a combined 60 MPG EPA rating.

    I think the Golf GTD ran into the same emissions obstacle as Honda. Those that want GTD performance will have to add mods to get the added HP.
  • I'm a driving enthusiast. When I get in a car I want to enjoy actually driving it. I'd rather it handle well then go fast. (anything under 8.5 seconds is fine) Gimme a good 35-70 time over 0-60 any day.

    I've owned both German and Japanese cars, the German cars were more fun to drive, and the Asian cars were more reliable. Right now there are 2 things stopping me from trading my reliable but sleep inducing Camry for a Jetta/Golf TDI. The biggest is I can’t afford ant new car at the moment. The second is VW's hit or miss reliability. If the reliability were close to that of Toyota/Honda/Hyundai, I’d buy one In a heartbeat- but VW you either get a well built tank or a lemon, there is no consistency.

    Gimme a dependable TDI and you’ve earned a customer for life. (Hey Detroit, Munich and Tokyo are you listening?)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,737
    Why single out Toyota and Honda for selling small, fuel efficient cars so they can also sell larger vehicles that Americans want to buy without incurring fines? That is exactly what every full-line auto manufacturer does, or would like to do if they could. You are pointing fingers at some automakers for offering a full line of vehicles to the public. Other automakers offer vehicles like the LS, Sequoia, Tundra, and Genesis. VW sells the Routan (which gets the same fuel economy as the Genesis) and the Tiguan 2 (14/20 mpg, not much better than the Sequoia and worse than the LS), also the Passat, which has much lower FE numbers than mid-sizers from Toyoyta, Hyundai, and several other automakers. Just because VW isn't very successful in selling these vehicles doesn't make them saintlike compared to Toyota and Hyundai, IMO.

    But that does help me understand why you seem to hate the Prius so much. As I said before, automakers (including Toyota and VW) are in business to make a profit. Making cars and producing the fuel for them has an impact on the environment. If you want to choose a mode of transportation that has least impact on the environment, it's called "your feet." Otherwise, you and me are damaging the environment every time we cause another car to be made, and every time we drive that car. So maybe you can spare us the sanctimonious stuff about which vehicle pollutes more through its manufacture. First, the important impact is not manufacture, but the impact during the lifetime of the vehicle. Second, someone who owns and has owned as many vehicles as you (and I) have, have no business bringing up the environmental impact of manufacturing a car.

    As for the TDI and 335d being niche vehicles... niche vehicles should be sufficient to build a "foothold" for diesels in the US, I think. Maybe when VW and other automakers who have diesels to bring here figure out the tastes of the American buying public, which they have to do if they intend to continue doing business here, they'll build diesels that more Americans want to drive and offer them here.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    but I am curious what the Prius mpg is at autobahn speeds of say 100-125 mph.

    I am not curious at all. If I drove regularly on the Autobahn I would not be driving a Prius to begin with.

    But here in Toronto with the nastiest and strictest traffic laws of all North America I am quite satisfled with my Prius.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Houdini disappears for many years.

    And poof! All of a sudden he re-appears. Now I know why you are called Houdini. ;)

    So what cars are you driving now? The Lexus LX? The Acura RL?

    Sorry but it was not you that dissuaded me about BMW. It was my BMW 335i with its recurring problems that convinced me to go to Consumers Report/JD Powers in order to pick a car that is ranked consistently highest in terms of reliability.

    My wild days are over. I knew that the first day I traded in my BMW for a Prius. The first 20 minutes of driving my Prius I had a bus driver who gave me the finger because I was driving too slow. Within 20 minutes I magically changed from a BMW drivier with tons of speeding tickets to one of the slowest driving Prius owners on this planet.. Talk about magic.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,035
    Why single out Toyota and Honda

    It has nothing to do with which company is better or worse. It has to do with those that would deify Toyota for building the Prius. Honda did in fact beat Toyota to the market with the first hybrid Insight that never really sold well. As the article from WSJ pointed out Toyota beat GM by building cars like the Prius and to a lesser extent the Yaris and Scion. None of which makes Toyota green except in the wallet. I am sure you are kidding about VW and the Routan. An over priced Chrysler Town and Country does not make any difference in the VW scheme of things. I am sure they lost a lot of money over that dumb decision. The TDI may be a real plus for VW now that they own Porsche. Porsche always paid big fines like BMW. So the more Golf TDIs they sell the more Turbo Porsche Carreras can be sold without fines to CAFE. It has nothing to do with being green or environmentally astute. It is all about beating our ignorant government at their little games.

    First, the important impact is not manufacture, but the impact during the lifetime of the vehicle.

    On that you are wrong. I will let you do your own research. I have posted it enough times that most are aware of the truth. You are right that I have bought more than my fair share of new vehicles. So I need to plant more trees to atone for those sins. I have never reached the US average per year for mileage. Still have not broken 100k miles on our 20 year old LS400.

    I think. Maybe when VW and other automakers who have diesels to bring here figure out the tastes of the American buying public

    Now that is a moving target. I think Toyota has probably had more hits than any other over the last 20 years. They have also made some big mistakes. Think Tundra... Diesels like hybrids will sell good when fuel prices rise. They will sit on the lots with incentives when fuel is cheap. I don't ever expect to see a rise in big SUVs like the 1990s. But they still sell better than I would expect in this economy.
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