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Toyota Prius vs VW Golf TDI

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Comments

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,165
    Pretty easy, from a practical point of view.

    I should state my TDI's real world consumption @70 mph, to be in excess of 59 mpg.
    I say in excess (inxs) because I can easily get 59 mpg @ 75 mpg with bursts to 80/85 mpg.

    So at a steady 70 mpg...(I swag) 60-65 mpg. This would be what, 15 mph better than the Prius? Not bad for the aerodynamics of a brick, eh? Of course this probably would be dismissed out of hand by the Prius folks? :blush:
  • I think if you took a prius and a golf tdi and rolled them into a ball you'd have a really fun to drive, super efficient automobile. Call it the Priolf or the Golfius.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,165
    I would say the perceptions of unreliability and unresponsive to dismal customer/repair service are major boat anchors that VW has to shed. :lemon: So for example if you get a statistically average VW and have great independent shop support, those are not real issues anymore. :shades:

    Indeed if what I read is true, good Toyota dealer repair service is about as rare as hens teeth. :lemon:
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > Of course this probably would be dismissed out of hand by the Prius folks?

    Since you can't actually buy it anymore, nor will you be able to in the future, dismissing is easy. It's hard to take the comparison seriously when the vehicle doesn't even meet minimum emission criteria and it forces you to shift gears yourself.

    Show me an automatic shifting diesel-fueled vehicle that is at least as clean as a common new non-hybrid gasser that delivers an average (city & highway combined) of 50 MPG, then reminder yourself that Prius is even cleaner.

    Face it, non-hybrid diesel simply doesn't cut the mustard.
    .
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    Interesting article from WSJ on the impact of C4C on VW and BMW diesel sales, including the Jetta TDI. Also discusses the general barriers to adoption of diesels in the U.S. A couple mentions of the Prius, but mostly it's about diesels:

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203440104574401103200521582.html
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,165
    ..."Face it, non-hybrid diesel simply doesn't cut the mustard. "...

    Face it, a 70 mpg Polo beats 50 mpg hybrid gasser by 40%.

    Interesting that you are of the burning more is actually better than burning less point of view. And you wonder why America actually burns more??? I would not have a clue why........... :lemon:

    Of course 12 to 17 k cheaper drawfs what Toyota asks for the Prius.

    I'd try to keep it out of the country too, if I had the adversarial attitude that EPA, CARBS and seemingly you have also.

    Really in terms of competition ,the Camry hybrid more matches the Jetta in hp (147 hp vs VW TDI 140 hp. Torque (the real motivator) is somewhat mismatched @ 138# ft vs TDI's 236 #ft. Also the EPA is 33c/34h/34 comb vs TDI 29c/40h/33 comb.
    Camry is app $2,800 more MSRP.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    Of course 12 to 17 k cheaper drawfs what Toyota asks for the Prius.

    A Polo diesel for $10,000? Bring it over, I'll buy one!!
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,165
    The article I read was like (swag) 7,725 BPS. So at 1.638 times USD conversion, more like $12,700 ? US or so...............
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    That was for a US-spec model? Since that's about the same price as a strippo Smart ForTwo, I'd be shocked if VW could bring a diesel Polo over here for anything close to that.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 6,067
    I have seen where the Polo pricing will start at around 17K.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,173
    Face it, non-hybrid diesel simply doesn't cut the mustard.

    What you need to face is the FACT that most Americans think the Prius is Butt ugly. I happen to be one along with the majority.. In fact nothing ToyLex offers in a hybrid is pleasing to my eyes. Not to mention ToyLex is still in the dark ages on building fine handling automobiles. So what does that leave if you want great handling and decent mileage. It leaves the few diesel offerings from Germany.

    Not only that Toyota has the WORST NAV on the market. Mine cannot find the best way home no matter how many times I try to show it. Pure wasted money. Unless Toyota improves and offers a diesel option, they will never see another penny of my money. How is that for a fact you cannot spin around? GM should be happy about the Prius, it makes the Aztek look decent. :P
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,165
    On the looks issue, to me it is in the eyes of the beholder. While I am not a fan of its looks, they do post pretty good coefficient of friction numbers. I (personally) see the Prius as a less...ugly... Aztek.

    Also when you talk more apples to apples h power equivalents; Camry hybrid to VW TDI and the $'s premium , with almost negligible comb mpg differences, I do prefer still the Jetta TDI. Indeed the Jetta TDI mpg range has been 39-45 mpg, in break in mode and driven in italian tune mode. I am swagging I would probably have a hard time getting 34 mpg in the Camry hybrid if I drove it like the Jetta TDI. In contrast, if I drove the Jetta TDI like how a Camry hybrid should be driven to get the good mpg figures (34 mpg) I would probably be pushing more like 49-53 mpg in the Jetta TDI.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,165
    "...the Camry hybrid more matches the Jetta in hp (147 hp vs VW TDI 140 hp. Torque (the real motivator) is somewhat mismatched 138# ft vs TDI's 236 #ft. Also the EPA is 33c/34h/34 comb vs TDI 29c/40h/33 comb. "

    If the EPA mpg numbers are to be believed (keep in mind the EPA tests have been skewed to favor hybrids) , there is only a 13.7% advantage for hybrids (33C-29c=4 mpg/29 mpg=)
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,173
    I'm not sure the C4C program really helped sell the Jetta TDI models. They were pretty much sold when they hit the lot. Especially the Sportswagen. Which is 80% diesel sold to date. The JSW is up 648% this year. Jetta sales are up overall this year from last year by 7%, most of which are diesel sales. The dealers know it and are taking all the TDIs they can get their hands on.

    By contrast. Even though Prius had a good month with the C4C program, they are still down in sales by 21% from last year. I think everyone that wants one has it by now. They should be selling at invoice by November.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > Face it, a 70 mpg Polo beats 50 mpg hybrid gasser by 40%

    What is the emission rating?

    Do you have to shift gears yourself?

    How fast can that 1.0 liter engine accelerate?

    What happens to efficiency when you run the A/C?
    .
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    $17k or so seems more reasonable, although still low, given that a base Golf 2 door diesel would run around $19-20k with the typical $2k premium for the diesel engine--if it were offered here that is. There just isn't that much difference in parts costs between the two, and manufacturing costs would be pretty similar. And I wonder how such a Polo would be equipped.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    Consider that for the year, the Prius is Toyota's hottest selling car, with the least percentage reduction in sales of any of their cars. So while sales are slower than last year during this recession, it seems a lot of people still want one. There are just a lot fewer people who want a Toyota, and a car, in general this year. YTD sales for Prius are now close to 100,000 or over. What are YTD sales of the Jetta TDI?
  • Re. Face it, a 70 mpg Polo beats 50 mpg hybrid gasser by 40%...

    This may be true, but there's one HUGE problem... the Polo's not available in the USA, so the comparison is moot from a realistic point-of-view for buyer's here in the States.

    There's really no sense in putting forth intelligent and well researched data on gas hybrids to ruking1, as he's a die hard Diesel aficionado (period).

    Until Diesel's are available across the board here in the States as they are in Europe or other parts of the world, the vast majority of stateside buyers interested in superior fuel economy, will, for better or worse, purchase gas hybrids.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    ULSD is coming!
    ULSD is coming!
    ULSD is coming!

    We had to endure that hype for years.

    It was the promise of great things to come for non-hybrid diesel.

    When ULSD (Ultra Low Surfur Diesel) finally arrived, it was a disappointment. Gas was still cleaner. Diesel sales remained pretty much flat, while hybrid marketshare climbed. And now with the new Prius actually in the top-10 seller list here, trying to stir new attention for non-hybrid diesel poses even more of a challenge... despite ULSD.
    .
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,173
    If you are as concerned about mileage as you say, you would be a VW fan rather than a Toyota fan.

    "We are extremely pleased with our August sales results. The government sponsored Cash for Clunkers program was instrumental at sparking the entire auto industry. The fact that Volkswagen currently has more vehicles that attain 25 miles per gallon or better on the highway than any other brand well positioned us to capitalize on the program," said Mark Barnes, Chief Operating Officer, Volkswagen of America, Inc. "Volkswagen's success in the program is best illustrated by how well our extremely fuel efficient TDI models sold during the program, resulting in virtual sold out situation of our model year 2009 TDI inventory. However, 2010 model year Jetta sedan TDI's are now available in dealer showrooms and Jetta SportWagen TDI's will be available later this month," added Barnes.

    The surge the Prius experienced, as you know, was the new improved model coming out prior to the C4C program being implemented. Toyota probably spends more money at the Congressional trough than does VW. The rush to get the clunker program going in spite of the fact they were not ready to handle the load was a plus for Toyota. VW does not overbuild as Toyota has done here in the USA. VW is profitable and Toyota is losing Billions. VW should pass Toyota as number one in the World next year. The Golf TDI will play a large roll as it increases the sales for VW in the USA. It all has to do with the exchange rate. Same reason Toyota gave for the short supply of Japanese built Prius last year. The sooner VW brings the TN factory on line and expands the already largest auto factory in Mexico, we shall see which company is the greenest of the green.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    In case you (and others) haven't noticed, I am not a "fan" of any particular brand. I OWN A VW. Do you? I've owned Toyotas, and many other brands. I currently own vehicles from four different manufacturers (kids, wife). I buy vehicles that meet my needs. Period. If a Golf TDI would meet my needs best, I would buy one. If a Prius would meet my needs best, I would buy one. (And one "need" is to fit within my budget.) Right now, I think my driving habits are a better fit for a car like the Prius than a car like the Golf TDI.

    BTW, the quote you cited is directly opposed to your previous post, that C4C had little impact on VW diesel sales.

    Also, please spare me your theories on which company spends more at the Congressional trough, unless you have facts to back it up. But even then, it's not pertinent at all to a discussion of two cars. Let's discuss them on their merits, OK?
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,173
    When ULSD (Ultra Low Surfur Diesel) finally arrived, it was a disappointment. Gas was still cleaner.

    Purely conjecture and your opinion. RUG has more sulfur than ULSD. RUG has far more carcinogens than ULSD. The State of CA has much stricter rules on pumping Gasoline as the fumes are very dangerous to human health. The biggest problem with gasoline there is NO direct renewable alternative available as there is with diesel.

    If, Peak Oil is just around the corner those with a Golf TDI will be still cruising while the Prius owner will be limited to about a mile when the battery runs down. :blush:
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 6,067
    Yeah, I figured that 17K figure was probably a base model with no options, etc.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,173
    In case you (and others) haven't noticed, I am not a "fan" of any particular brand.

    Sorry, thought I was responding to John.

    The Prius is not as hot of a seller as the RAV4 which is about the only vehicle that is up in sales this year over last. Of course the Prius is not in the sales league with the Corolla or Camry.

    I do not agree with the VW person's quote on the C4C TDI sales. From my research the TDI models were selling like hot cakes prior to C4C. I would say it did help VW get rid of a bunch of their gassers.

    FYI:
    "It's deeply disappointing that Toyota has joined in the lie-and-threaten game," says Dan Becker, director of the Sierra Club's global-warming program. Speaking to Automotive News [AN, sub], Mr. Becker is referring to Toyota's decision to join The Big 2.8 in lobbying Washington to throttle back on plans for higher Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standards. The effort is sure to tarnish the transplant's green credentials and stoke the fires of domestic partisans

    I don't see any signs of VW paying off Congress to get their way.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    Looks like it's not possible to keep this discussion on topic, and no one really seems to care that there are prospective buyers of these two cars (like me) here to learn more about the cars, not wind through endless debates over which company does more lobbying or which is "greener" or whatnot. That's a shame.

    So anyway... here's another quote from the same article:

    Tim MacCarthy, who retired last year as president of the international automakers association after more than 30 years of Washington lobbying, says he believes Toyota helped end the industry's just-say-no attitude toward increases in fuel economy standards.

    An industry-backed bill nearing a vote in the House still would challenge the companies, MacCarthy and others say. It would require a fuel economy improvement of 30 to 40 percent within 15 years.


    http://www.autoweek.com/article/20070730/FREE/70730006

    And VW does lobby Congress... for example:

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb6674/is_200310/ai_n26620916/

    And they lobby elsewhere, e.g. against proposed standards on vehicle emissions in Europe:

    On 26 January 2007, German companies BMW, Volkswagen and DaimlerChrysler, together with the European units of Ford and General Motors sent a letter to Commission President Barroso. In the letter they asked him to withdraw the proposed new emissions standard, alleging that the proposed measures were “technically unrealisable” and would constitute “a massive industrial political intervention at the expense of the entire European, and especially the German, automobile industry”. They did not hesitate to evoke the spectre of massive industrial desertification: “The direct consequence would be the migration of a large number of jobs from the automobile manufacturers and the supplier industry”.[18] This threat may have looked quite convincing as it came only two months after Volkswagen had announced restructuring plans that could result in the loss of up to 4,000 jobs in the Brussels region.[19]

    http://archive.corporateeurope.org/carlobby.html

    So if you think VW doesn't lobby for their best interests, even if it means working against actions to improve the environment... think again.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,173
    You say it works against improving environment and I say the Golf TDI and other modern diesels work to improve the environment. If the EPA had their head where it belongs we would have matched the EU for automobile standards decades ago and be using a lot less fuel today.

    By the way how much money did they stuff in the envelope with their letter?

    If the Prius was as environmentally friendly as the proponents would have us believe it would be built here. There are many components in the Hybrids that could not be built here with current EPA regulations. NiMH batteries for one.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,165
    ..."When ULSD (Ultra Low Surfur Diesel) finally arrived, it was a disappointment. Gas was still cleaner. "...

    John1709a's quote does not triangulate with the facts. While allrespect his rights to his opinions,his opinion is rooted in pure fantasy. Or to be more PC, not based on the facts.

    RUG to PUG is required by law to be delivered @ 90 ppm sulfur and can be off line mitigated (fees) to 30 ppm sulfur.

    ULSD is required by law to be delivered @ less than 15 ppm and is normally 5 ppm sulfur.

    So RUG to PUG can be up to 18 times DIRTIER than ULSD.

    Standard to standard RUG to PUG is 2 times dirtier than D2. (30 ppm/15 pm)

    The more normal reality: RUG to PUG is 5 times dirtier (30 ppm/5 ppm)

    (However that includes 90 ppm off line mitigated by fees to 30 ppm, so as you can see the reality is inflated ppm sulfur for RUG to PUG.)

    We haven't even talked about bio diesel which is normally ZERO ppm to 2 ppm sulfur. Again we have gone over the hurdles the system has thrown in its way.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    You can "say" all you want. It does not change the fact that both Toyota and VW lobby the world's governments in their own interests. That is what many, many companies do. As for money in envelopes, if you are charging Toyota with bribing US government officials, then where is your proof? And if you have proof, isn't it really more a matter for the Dept of Justice than this forum? (If you contact the US Attorney General's office with your proof, they can follow up on it.)

    You must have heard about the US factory for the Prius in Mississippi, which was put on hold last year when demand for the Prius dropped amid the plunge in gas prices?
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,165
    ..."Consider that for the year, the Prius is Toyota's hottest selling car, with the least percentage reduction in sales of any of their cars. So while sales are slower than last year during this recession, it seems a lot of people still want one. There are just a lot fewer people who want a Toyota, and a car, in general this year. YTD sales for Prius are now close to 100,000 or over. What are YTD sales of the Jetta TDI? "...

    If you put this into context that the fuel efficient (relatively) Prius in effect buys the right to produce less fuel efficient cars (Gagrice probably can add his perspective on this) Tundra, Tacoma, (real) Landcruiser, Landcruiser, Avalon, the luxo Lexus line, etc, it is even a greater factorial failure. Hopefully the cash for clunkers program will at least let Toyota (and others) to post a nominal profit.

    ..."You must have heard about the US factory for the Prius in Mississippi, which was put on hold last year when demand for the Prius dropped amid the plunge in gas prices?"...

    Backys quote is redundant confirmation of what I am trying to say.

    The fact that VW can't open its Chattanooga, TN plant to add to the capacity to produce 40% diesels, is still another. (redundancy)

    So for example if hybrids are not selling why on earth would one (Toyota for example) up the production of... hybrids??????

    You can also substitue VW in that syllogism and discuss from there.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,165
    ..."There's really no sense in putting forth intelligent and well researched data on gas hybrids to ruking1, as he's a die hard Diesel aficionado (period)."

    The (actual) ratios of miles deny your assertions 11 to one in favor of gasser (greater) miles. The miles indicate a die hard gasser bent.

    to correct an above post : ..."The fact that VW can't open its Chattanooga, TN plant " (please insert) FAST enough
This discussion has been closed.