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Toyota Prius vs VW Golf TDI



  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,676
    Wayne has done amazing things with Gassers and hybrids both. He got close to 40 MPG from a stinking Ford Ranger. I don't think he does the long haul stuff like the Taylors.

    Maybe we could get a Golf TDI against a 2010 Prius in a 24 hour race at say Daytona. That would test speed, handling, mileage and reliability in a 24 hour period. See what both cars are made of. VW had that Jetta TDI series that was very popular. The drivers had to buy the car and qualify for the series. Wonder how well a Prius would hold up at top speed for 24 hours straight? Or even better a Pike's Peak run.
  • We've combined 'mph vs MPG' data from Consumer reports, a TDI owner "Plus 3 Golfer", and the Prius community to get this chart:

    What we find is the 1.5L Prius both have a 'knee in the curve' at 65 mph and this corresponds with an optimum cruise speed. Any higher, and the mileage begins to fall off.

    The 1.3L Honda Insight runs into problems at high speeds and that is what the EPA and 'head to head' tests are showing at highway speeds:
    But at speeds of 60 mph or lower, the Honda Insight is a real fuel sipper.

    For those considering a 2010 Prius, this is what users are reporting at PriusChat:

    Questions? Concerns?

    Bob Wilson
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    The data is very convincing indeed about how good the Prius is.

    This beats the chatter about Corolla cost per mile, road races between a Prius & TDI and all the other silly diversions.

    Data not chatter proves the worth of a Prius.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,487
    The math in the article in msg #272 needs no convincing. However one should know:

    1. how to do the math
    2. understand the ramifications OF the math
    3. figure out if one wants to be convinced by the full court marketing and product positioning of the Prius.

    I would take it that most Prius buyers emphasize #3
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    LOL, I have a 1983 MB 300D survery to show you with 1983 assumption on the merits on driving a 2010 Prius instead. Next time how about providing me with some relevant informattion instead. :P

    Unfortunatelyl that Edmunds post of yours is not math and I am not trying to be personal about your acute math skills.. It is all about assumptions not math. Garbage in-garbage out is the case if the assumptions are not correct and boy that 2004 study of yours is pure garbage.

    A cost comparison cannot be assumed based on 2004 figures (fuel costs) and it cannot assume what kind of driving the driver does. (downtown traffic, highway or rural roads). The 2004 figure does not involve a 2010 Prius. So do you still want to see my 83 MB 300D study done in 1983 with 1983 assumptions?
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,487
    The essential point, does the marketing match the reality?

    You are going backwards and confusing the issue, if you really think the issues have not been about assumptions/measurements. I just gave comparison assumptions and measurements. Math allows you to evaluate assumptions/measurements.

    Perhaps that is the real "curve/screw ball" about the cited article: tt goes against commonly held assumptions !!?? So you are correct garbage in/ out. So not only do most folks not want to hear about it, they obviously have a hard time wrapping their arms/heads around the presented concepts. Math is cited as the problem. So in that sense, the math doesn't help, despite it being a representation of the TRUTH.

    To address your next point, unless you have say 10,000 to 30,000 miles on your 2010 Prius, you are PROJECTING. If you have 10,00 to 30,000 miles on your 2010 you are MEASURING. The obvious questions here are: 1. in 10,000 to 30,000 miles does the projection match the reality? 2. how and what degree did they deviate. ? I know you get this. But if you chose to indicate you do not "get it" I know it will be by choice. Please also understand I am not asking for "agreement".

    So for example, why are you keeping your 83 MB 300 D ? I think it would not be too unlike why I want to keep my TDI for a minimum of 500,000 miles?

    To make a similar point on the counterpoint argument's side; why would you NOT want to keep a 2004 Prius hybrid a minimum of 500,000 miles (in 7 MYs !!! )? There is literally nothing radically different about the 2010 Prius??? (that would warrant spending another 25,000 dollars... my op/ed !!)

    Your (others also such as diesel haters, etc) attitude would probably be radically different towards me if I had ended up with a 2004 Prius and going on 123,000 miles.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    OK so I guess that means you do want to see a 2010 Prius versus 1983 Mercedes Benz 300D comparison that is based both on perfect math and on perfect 1983 assumptions and use this comparison to make a point in the year of 2009 . :blush:
  • Anyone notice how prius guy uses cute little smiley face cars?? Diesel guy doesn't. I'm just saying..
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243

    good comeback.

    Here's my combeback:


    How's that for cute.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,676
    This Edmund's video gives you a peak at what to expect. $5,000 premium you pay for a Prius to get comparable equipment. There is one more strike against the Prius… its manufacturing process pretty much makes your happy little bumper sticker null & void.

    Prius vs Jetta TDI, 8000 miles Portland to Portland. Interesting stories from the drivers.

    For those of you solely fixated on stats, the MPG part of this was that the CBTDI Jetta acheived an average of 41.4 MPG against the Prius 40.96 MPG (corrected).

    Honestly, this isn't great mileage for EITHER vehicle, I usually get a good 44- 48 MPG on my '06 TDI that I drive here in the Northwest (combo city/highway) and I won't even start on the Prius stats I'm sure the good folks over at 'PriusChat' can (and probably will) throw at me. But they are what they are - and we promised transparancy. Remember, we drove these cars HARD like real people - not like a bunch of hyper-milers or MPG gauge watchers. The journey inherently contained a lot of highway mileage - we typically drove at or over the speed limit (like real people do) and while we did switch drivers on a fair and regular interval - we drove both cars with a heavy foot.

    For us, this challenge wasn’t about mileage – as we said, the internet is filled with that stuff – for us the real “test” in our case, was a (Green) Human one. Traveling 8,000 miles in a few short weeks amounting to a lot of driving and gave our testers the chance to really get to know each vehicle. The challenge was about cars and PEOPLE.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Nothing like old news.

    A prior generation Prius? Is this the best you can dig up?

    Nothing like news biased by the tester himself?

    Please note the tester himself is someone who drives a TDI which if you are not aware shows where his bias is.

    This anecdotal stale news is worth nothing compared to the compelling data recently provided by Bob Wilson which consists of a larger population and real data. Not the ramblings of a highly biased and narrow minded TDI owner/tester .

    My cousin in Toronto struggles to get 30 MPG on his 05 VW TDI.
    I am now getting over 50 MPG with similar traffic conditions as what he is faced

    The first few weeks of ownership I got about 45 MPG but now eureka I am above 50 MPG. Not bad for a former lead footed BMW driver.

    That in itself says a lot.

    C'mon Volks you can do better than that? Is this all you do to debate the merits of a VW TDI.

    How it does in a race track? (boy nothing is as exciting as a dull TDI or hybrid econo boxes on a race track) :sick:

    The cost per mile ownership of a econ-Corolla compared to a Camry-platform based Prius. Now ain't that relevant?

    The Honda Fit versus TDI I think would be a better forum because after this discussion I dont think the TDI can even compare to a PRius.

    Good bye Volks
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,487
    I for one am glad you are having more fun in a Prius. It is more than apparent you were horribly mis-matched to a BMW 335 I. Perhaps " the eyes were bigger than the stomach", as the saying goes.

    However diesel's flexibility is one of its neat features, as I am sure you have heard of the BMW 335 D with 265 hp/425 # ft of torque !!This thing can be literally a monster in a compact sized package. 33 to 36 mpg (vs the 335I gassers 20-24 mpg) is pretty trick for this kind of GO (35% better as a minimum) . I for one loved it, but it is first and foremost a ROAD car and the greater % of mileage would have been for commuting.

    The tire replacement costs would match the fuel costs ! Since it is a purposeful commute, my last (4 each) tires replacement on a Honda Civic @ 75,000 miles cost TOTAL as much as one BMW 335 I tire would cost.

    However the thread is stale news in light of the fact the 2010 Golf TDI is not yet out on the market. So in that sense, I have taken pains to compare a 03 TDI to an 03/04 Prius. Over in the real world Prius mpg numbers, John (un abashed Prius promoter trying to masquerade as impartial car nut) almost had a cow when I mentioned my real world 03 TDI mpg numbers. He seems to take great pride in citing the latest Prius MPG and totally ignoring the environmental as well as financial ramifications of buying 3 cars to one. On the other hand, there is NOTHING wrong with buying 3 cars to one. However that might be another discussion.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    The saga of those highly suspicious MPG values went on for months. Here's what was posted before the hastily changed correction:

    "For those of you solely fixated on stats, the MPG part of this was that the CBTDI Jetta achieved an average of 37.4 MPG against the Prius 34.96 MPG."

    Of course, the rush to use a 2009 instead of a 2010 was a dead giveaway to question intent right from the start. MPG was touted as extremely important all along the way, yet numbers were never posted. Then afterward, we got weeks of downplaying that importance. Then when they were finally revealed, they suddenly got "corrected". No detail was ever provided.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,676
    Please note the tester himself is someone who drives a TDI which if you are not aware shows where his bias is.

    That makes my point exactly. Your bias lies with Prius as that is what you drive. I am waiting for Toyota to come to the plate. After their RX400h got whupped in the match-up with the Mercedes diesel they have played it low key. They currently hold the winning hand with a car that sells good. As more diesels start filtering in, such as the Golf TDI and people get to realize that you don't have to drive a frumpy looking, poor handling car to get good mileage, VW will increase their market share. Just as VW did in the Cash for Clunkers program.

    You are making a claim that cannot be confirmed in the platform for the Camry being the basis for the Prius. Probably the closest match in the Toyota lineup would be the Matrix and the Prius. The Jetta Sportswagen offers a lot more room for stuff than the Prius. 35% more storage than a Prius to be exact..
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,487
    Folks like dewey and John1701a probably finds counterpoints absolutely galling !! :lemon: :shades: I am sure they would support the concept of an ANTI diesel CZAR !?

    The piece indicates there might be an app $7,000 premium over the Jetta TDI (certainly there is a range).

    @2.93 (current diesel prices vs RUG @3.07) , that $7k premium would buy 2,389 gals of D2 fuel, or @ 40 mpg, 95,563 miles more.

    Since the (TBD) 2010/2011 Golf is a less pricey variant over the Jetta and the MSRP and invoice pricing are yet to hit the data files, there are probably even more premium differences between Golf 's and 2010 Prius'es.

    Further, you would think that Toyota would engineer ( later gen) Prius'es to have much better handling and durability of wear able parts than it already does.

    But the counterpoint: if the customer base is just fine with lousy sub par handling and low durability performance..., why bother? (and they haven't)

    This might be a tad TOO technical or TMI (too much information) , but Toyo won a portion of the lowest bidder contract to provide so called "lower rolling resistance" tires for the 2010 Prius.

    Upshot: I would be interested in how many miles the oem Toyo Prius tires will do (from real users like...John1701a.)

    Through a lot of research for replacement tires for the TDI, Toyo seems to have done a great job in price/performance parameters and seems to offer great oem replacement tires that are better than.... oem. Time/mileage will tell whether or not it will match or exceed the TDI oem tires's of 112,300 miles or.... NOT. So far , except for new tires break in , I have not experienced a hit in mpg. Indeed the mpg is the best that it has ever been.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    It's blatant misrepresentation like that which causes the problem.

    In short: NON-HYBRID diesel

    There's nothing wrong with diesel when used in a clean & efficient manner.

    But certain people absolutely insist that's not the case. They continue to claim that hybrid supporters only want gas and will argue against anything diesel. That just plain is not true.

    We've seen PZEV prototypes of diesel vehicles. We know how efficient hybrids are. Why some automakers refuse to deliver either is no reason to misrepresent those who endorse the next-generation products.

    Face it, traditional (engine-only) technology cannot deliver both our efficiency & emissions needs. Adding an electric motor is required.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,487
    ..."They continue to claim that hybrid supporters only want gas and will argue against anything diesel. That just plain is not true. "

    Indeed, I am not against hybrids or gassers, but you knew that and ignore that to make false syllogisms..

    In your false syllogism, the facts are still 97% passenger vehicle fleet RUG to PUG and LESS than 1% passenger diesel (75% of 3% diesel are light truck diesels). Of the 97% RUG to PUG app 2% are 100 % gasser/hybrid. There are no E85 ethanol/hybrids. So if you count the 2% hybrid passenger vehicle fleet starting with the 2003 Prius or 5.114 M vehicles (.00333% per year) to get to 12% SUV population) or 30.684 M vehicles , current growth rate will take app 36 years.........This is with a PRO HYBRID attitude. With a less than 1% passenger diesel population it would be hard to conclude the policy and attitude has been PRO diesel. Indeed anti diesel as been the rule.

    Diesels continue to offer a cost effective alternative to the gasser hybrid and to the gassers only.

    This is purely an op/ed, but it would seem that no good deeds go unpunished. For as the population of Prius' grow in places like LA LA land, where by far has the greatest population of hybrids.. the warnings are ever more about the quality of air getting ever worse.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    .You are making a claim that cannot be confirmed in the platform for the Camry being the basis for the Prius. Probably the closest match in the Toyota lineup would be the Matrix and the Prius

    How can you criticize a claim that is posted everywhere and is in itself a fact.

    Why dont you Google" MC platform" which happens to be the platform of the current Toyota Camry and Toyota Prius .

    How can you say this is not confirmed?
    How can you make arguments against a car when you dont even know what it really is.

    The new Prius is essentially the same size as its predecessor, although it is based on the Toyota MC platform, which is used for vehicles including the current Camry.

    link title
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243

    sport package Run Flat 18 inch tires go for about Canadian $800(with taxes in Ontario)

    Sorry but additional tire costs are going to be substantially more than gas savings especially if you a driver who drove as aggressively as I did and who visited more traffic courts than I am willing to admit

    A BMW 335d is a thrill seeking decision not an economic decision based on savings.
    My BMW 335i was a piece of unreliable junk and I am just glad I am not experiencing the same thing any more . The Ultimated Driving Me Crazy Experiences were too hard for me to bear.

    The BMW 335d and BMW X5d are doing lousy in North America. These new introduced vehicles can only be sold with $4500 of incentivized bribe money. The Lexus hybrid RX450h are HOT vehicles without significant incentives while there will be acute shortages of the new hybrid Lexus HS.

    You would expect waiting lists for new BMW diesels but the reality dictates otherwise. Fortunately Lexus is not losing any sleep over BMW diesels.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,487
    A good article on the new 2010 Prius. Year's back I read a few articles in passing saying the Prius needed a lot of major things refined; and I guess this article delineated what things they spent their time on.... refining. One HUGE issue in a few of those articles was (if I remember correctly) cutting the cost of manufacture in half. Since it doesn't really apply to the consumer ethos/pathos, this article said not one word about that.

    While I think it is personally cool, that the mpg went from (2nd gen) 46 combined mpg to 50 mpg combined (3rd gen) , the fuel mileage article shows it to be of lesser consequence in the grand scheme of 12-15 mpg large car conversions to mid sized sedan mpg numbers (20-25 mpg). (aka eco bragging rights) . For me it would be to actually get 50 mpg at the lowest possible costs. Indeed if I stayed with gassers (I have for one commute car) 38-42 mpg in a Honda Civic (Corolla to keep on the Toyota track) makes all the cost per mile driven sense in the world.

    Indeed, here is an easy example with a 15,000 per year commute requirement: I would save 95 gals per year @3.07 per gal= $291.65 yr/12 mo = $24.30 per mo.

    From my .02 cent point of view, to spend 25 to 30k to get a 4 mpg increase (if I had the 2nd gen Prius)(or even the above example) would make NO sense at all; sans the ECO BRAGGING RIGHTS.
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