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Toyota Prius vs VW Golf TDI

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Comments

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    I have advised several people that put a lot of miles in mostly urban and stop & go freeway driving to check out the Prius.

    That describes my wife and me pretty well. I get to cruise around the back country maybe once a year if that, and then it's pretty flat back country. The Golf TDI looks like a good choice for your needs. Or, you could tell your wife, "Honey, I've worked hard and I deserve a Porsche. Then get her a Beetle TDI, when it's available (women seem to love those), and enjoy the Porsche. Maybe a used one. :)
  • I just checked the user reports from the EPA web site: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/

    51.6 MPG - 46 vehicles - 2010 Prius
    40.3 MPG - 24 vehicles - 2009 Jetta TDI auto
    40.2 MPG - 16 vehicles - 2009 Jetta TDI manual
    37.3 MPG - 13 vehicles - 2009 Jetta SportWagon TDI auto

    Lowest / Highest user reports:

    38/63 - 2010 Prius
    34/50 - Jetta TDI auto
    33/57 - Jetta TDI manual
    28/46 - Jetta SportWagon TDI auto

    Weird, even the owners of these vehicles are showing a strange MPG bias towards the 2010 Prius. As for pollution, I guess I don't care since my car is at home in Huntsville AL. I don't live in Japan, China, Korea, Mexico, Europe, Canada or any other foreign place. I'd recommend asking those folks if they care about manufacturing pollution ... any of them around this forum today?

    Bob Wilson
  • Bob Wilson has a news flash for everyone - the Prius gets better combined mileage than a Golf. Stop the presses.

    All Prius guys listen up for just a second as I break it down for you:

    The Prius DOES get better gas mileage than the tdi.
    The Prius DOES release fewer harmful emissions than the tdi.

    BUT............the tdi is still better than 98% of cars on the road today at both of these key issues ---------AND it is a blast to drive. Can you all admit that this is a good combination of attributes? Can you understand why a person would find this car a really great all-around automobile worthy of one's hard earned coin? Shock me and do it.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,166
    I am glad you went to all that trouble. You have pointed out the fallacy of the EPA fuel economy ratings. Many of US including VW corporate have complained that the new calculations are very accurate for the hybrids and out in left field for the diesel cars. As your little exercise graphically points out. The average VW Jetta TDI owner gets about 19% better overall mileage than the EPA estimates. While the Prius is within 3% of the EPA rating. Which gives Toyota a leg up on sales of the Prius to buyers that would cross shop. As they will believe the EPA estimates. Hopefully the EPA gets it right someday. Not holding my breath.

    PS
    I would give up more than 10 MPG for the added braking, safety and handling the VW TDIs offer.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,160
    The Toyota closer to the 2009 Jetta TDI is really the 2009 Camry hybrid (and the Camry hp and performance wise Jetta TDI's torque drawfs the hybrids by 71%, 236# ft to 138 # ft).

    www.fueleconomy.gov

    2009 Jetta TDI EPA 29 C / 40 H / 37 mpg comb

    2009 Camry Hybrid EPA 33 C / 34 H/ 34 mpg comb

    "MPG Est For Drivers Like You"

    is more like:

    2009 Jetta TDI 34 C / 50 H / comb 40.3 mpg

    2009 Camry Hybrid 31 C / 41 H / comb 36.7 mpg

    So Jetta TDI has 9.8% combined better mpg.

    If one drives primarily H, Jetta is 22% better than Camry Hybrid

    If one drives primarily C (surprise surprise) Jetta TDI is 9.6 % better

    The Jetta TDI costs $2,390 less MSRP and $1,327 INVOICE less than the Camry Hybrid.The Hybrid's T or typical option package adds $1,150 MSRP/ $989 INVOICE
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,160
    I have read the 2010 Golf TDI will start to hit the show rooms anywhere from Dec 2009 to Jan 2010. Edmunds.com does not yet list the pricing.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    First, this is a discussion about two hatchbacks: the Golf TDI and Prius. Not the Jetta. Not the Camry.

    Second, the Camry is a mid-sized car in every sense of the word, especially in length and interior room. The Jetta is a compact car in length and interior room.

    Third, why do you (and others) continually forget about a major part of the Prius' and TCH's powertrain: the electric motors? You only talk about the power and torque of the ICE part of their powertrains. That is like talking about the power and torque of the TDI, but only the diesel part--forget about the turbo and forget about DI.

    If you want to compare the Jetta TDI to the TCH (maybe because a comparison to the Prius is less favorable to the Jetta?), it's easy to create a discussion for that if there isn't one already.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,160
    NO, as I said before, the reality is the hp power match ups for the TDI and Camry Hybrid are closer. Indeed if you want to compare engine size and mpg the 2010/2011 VW TDI Polo are more matched. However the mpg is 71 vs 50 for the Prius. So the last real year of comparison would be the 2003 model year. Again the www.fueleconomy.gov shows them to be neck and neck mpg wise.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    If you insist...

    TCH Hybrid System Net Power: 187 hp
    TCH Hybrid System Net Torque: 138 lb-ft + 199 lb-ft from 0-1500 RPM

    So power between TDI and Camry isn't even close, and on starting from rest (when you really need max torque), the torque isn't close either.

    But they are pretty close on the TDI vs. Prius:

    Prius Hybrid System Net Power: 134 hp
    Prius Hybrid System Torque: 105 lb-ft + 153 lb-ft
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,166
    So power between TDI and Camry isn't even close, and on starting from rest (when you really need max torque), the torque isn't close either.

    That is true only if you are a stop light drag racer. I need the torque when I have to kick it from 50 to 75 going up a long grade to pass a slow truck or Prius. That is when you really fall in love with diesel engines. You have to experience it to understand.

    You should test drive one sometime and you will be a believer. The Rabbit gasser is no match for the TDI out on the road.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,160
    You really owe it to yourself to test drive the 2009/2010 TDI. I think you may just have much different perspective.

    "TCH Hybrid System Net Torque: 138 lb-ft + 199 lb-ft from 0-1500 RPM"

    So if you are saying the electric motors torque functions past 1500 RPMS AND delivers 199# ft of torque past 1500 rpms and is added to the gas engine torque past 1500 rpms then yes 337 # ft of torque is greater than 236# ft of torque.

    Is that what you are saying?

    Keep in mind the Camry Hybrid does the 0-60 in 8.4 seconds :sick:
    and the

    TDI does it in 8.9 seconds. :shades:
  • dchevdchev Posts: 38
    You guys compare Prius and WV TDI. Well, it is true that TDI is powerfull if you want to go from 50 to 70 mph; however, the new Prius engine is also POWERFULL.
    Many people (including myself) like it a lot. You have to remember that this is 1.8l engine, not the old 1.5l. It is not as fast as TDI, but is a very capable engine. Test and see for yourself!
    Also, WV Polo CANNOT compare to the Prius! You have to compare it to Toyota Yaris in size. The reason Polo has such a good gas millage is that its size is maybe 60% the size on the Prius. On the top of that, it is very slow........ ;)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    Is that what you are saying?

    No. Please re-read my post.

    Question: What are the horsepower and torque of the engine in the Golf TDI without the turbocharger? And without DI? Those are the numbers we should use for future comparisons to the Prius, since according to you the output from those add-on components shouldn't count, and also any additional power/torque from those add-on components must be available at all RPMs.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,166
    Golf TDI without the turbocharger?

    You are grasping at straws with that argument. We should compare the Prius without the two electric motors then. Think it would make it to 60 MPH without a tailwind? The electric motors are the key to the Prius success. Not that anemic gas engine. Just as the turbo makes a small diesel engine practical.

    I think the two are a good comparo as they are. They have exactly the same passenger capacity, with the Prius an advantage in cargo capacity. No way the Prius will beat the Golf TDI to 60 MPH or any other speed contest. City mileage will be in the Prius column. Bucking the elements such as wind, snow, ice and mountains all in the Golf column. The Taylors have proven the VW TDI can top the Prius on a long haul mileage run. So all that is left is for VW to get them in the showrooms. I have the cash set aside if I really like the Golf TDI.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,160
    ..."No. Please re-read my post. "...

    No need to re-read your post , but....

    Good. Because the context in which you put the electric motors is/can be VERY misleading. So my original post stands. This is not written to upset anybody, but Camry Hybrid 8.4 second 0-60 sec are "slug" numbers (ok, frisky slug) So by default 8.9 sec 0-60 TDI numbers... are similarily SLUGGISH. However the performance part important to me are the 45 to 100 + mph ranges.

    "Use able" torque in the TDI dwarfs the Prius and even the heads up competitor, Camry Hybrid. The (USE ABLE) torque in the TDI is 71% greater than the Camry Hybrid.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    We should compare the Prius without the two electric motors then.

    That is exactly what is going on now. Thus I suggested we should consider the power/torque of the TDI without the turbo and TDI. Seems fair to me.

    Or we could be fair to both cars and compare their powertrains in their entirely, without omitting key components such as the electric motors (Prius) or turbo (TDI).

    They have exactly the same passenger capacity

    Their passenger volume is about the same. But passenger room/comfort is considerably different, e.g. much greater rear leg room in the Prius.

    City mileage will be in the Prius column.

    And highway mileage also, although with a smaller difference.

    Since you haven't driven the Gen 3 Prius yet, nor the Golf TDI, how do you know that the Golf beats the Prius in wind, snow, ice, and mountains? I can see the mountains. But wind, snow, and ice? A lot of that has to do with tire grip and effectiveness of brakes and ESC.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    Please define "USABLE" torque.

    How about "usable" horsepower? Certainly the 187 net hp in the Camry dwarfs that of the Golf TDI, and even the 134 net hp of the Prius is very close to that of the TDI.

    Again, I see no point of comparing a real mid-sized sedan like the Camry to a compact hatchback like the Golf. Especially in a discussion that has nothing to do with the Camry.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,160
    ..."Please define "USABLE" torque.

    How about "usable" horsepower? Certainly the 187 net hp in the Camry dwarfs that of the Golf TDI, and even the 134 net hp of the Prius is very close to that of the TDI."...

    This is an all too common misunderstanding that the majority of (gasser) folks who have not driven diesels have.At the risk of not being PC, most gasser drivers are clueless how it even works in the gassers THEY drive.

    I could define it, but I think most folks STILL would not get it. Indeed you are in (written) denial when I say ask you which is more useable 236# ft of torque or 138# ft of torque and by a WHOPPING 71% !!??

    Horsepower

    Torque

    link title
  • interesting comments here. comparing one car without the electric motor, one without the turbo and DI...hilarious.

    since both the cars are sold with said things, you cant do anything BUT compare what they feature.

    and even though the prius does technically make more torque from its electric motor, guys it craps out under 2000 rpm. thats not usable in the least. hence why even the new prius is virtually slower than a tdi from a stop a roll, or whatever.

    a powerful prius! lol! this is hilarious.

    honestly, while the prius may do better from a mpg standpoint, it:

    1. cant hold a candle to the interior of the VW golf tdi (few cars, if any, in that class or aclass above can.)

    2. will never match the acceleration or driving dynamics

    3. and will never take an understated stance towards its fuel economy abilities like the golf tdi does. (unless you are looking for a badge, its hard to tell the regular golf and tdi apart.)

    and while the new prius is a 'nice' car (in the same way a camry is a 'nice' car) you will never have that solid hewn from metal tuetonic feeling only possible in a german branded car. if that matters not to you thats cool, but to those who know what i'm talking about it makes all the world of difference.

    i cant wait to take the new golf tdi for a spin. its defintely on my short list.

    2 different cars, similar mission, and one does it in the style that i prefer, with as little consequence to the driving experience as possible.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,160
    ..."comparing one car without the electric motor"...

    Ah.... no. The Zero to 60 times for the Camry Hybrid of 8.4 seconds was with the electric motors fully functioning !!?? The scenario was a "fire for effect" to see if the one doing the communicating really meant what was implied. Thank fully he corrected or better stated himself.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    Indeed you are in (written) denial when I say ask you which is more useable 236# ft of torque or 138# ft of torque and by a WHOPPING 71% !!?

    Since you refuse to consider the total output of the Prius' powertrain, I would say it is you who is in denial, written and otherwise.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    Great. I am glad you are in agreement that it is silly to compare specs on these cars (Golf TDI and Prius) while considering only a portion of their powertrains. So from now on, please mention total system output when referring to both cars' horsepower and torque.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    and even though the prius does technically make more torque from its electric motor, guys it craps out under 2000 rpm. thats not usable in the least.

    Almost all of my driving is done under 2000 rpms on my Rabbit.

    and will never take an understated stance towards its fuel economy abilities like the golf tdi does.


    Since the Prius clearly tops the Golf TDI in fuel economy (see earlier posts with graphs), what "stance" the Prius takes to FE is irrelevant. The FACT is the Prius has higher FE, and especially in the city, which is important to city dwellers like me.

    you will never have that solid hewn from metal tuetonic feeling only possible in a german branded car.


    Yep, pretty solid. I do hope however that VW has done a better job in the new Golf in the squeaks/rattles/wind whistles department. I did get two rattles finally fixed in my Rabbit, but a loud wind whistle from the passenger door has defied repair up to now. I have to take it in soon and see if the dealer can fix it for good this time.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,160
    "...Since you refuse to consider the total output of the Prius' powertrain, I would say it is you who is in denial, written and otherwise. "...

    No it would appear you are still clueless after me posting the linked articles on hp/torque and the "inter related ness". Very simply ,I know what it means when the electric motor is good from 0 to 1,500 rpms and with up to 193 # ft of torque in the hybrid motivation context. I perceive you want it to appear to be something it is not, never designed to do, etc. But really that is ok. Just as long as you are happy with your choice of vehicle. I certainly remain so.

    On the other hand there is the Tesla with the Zero to 60 in what 5 seconds? This of course is a WAY different design and the range is WAY low.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 6,068
    Let's steer away from the personal edge that continually crops up here. Please restrict your comments to the vehicles and not each other please

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  • Almost all of my driving is done under 2000 rpms on my Rabbit

    really? you can never appreciate that meaty torque peak! at any rate, you could also argue that the tdi's super low torque output is just as effective. the torque curve on the prius is so narrow, that its ability to rocket you forward means nothing to someone who drives in the city slowly under 2000 rpms .(or at least shifts before then?)

    at any rate, regardless of torque, the tdi flat out accelrates faster to 30, to 60, to anything, than a prius does. there is no refuting that.

    Since the Prius clearly tops the Golf TDI in fuel economy (see earlier posts with graphs), what "stance" the Prius takes to FE is irrelevant. The FACT is the Prius has higher FE, and especially in the city, which is important to city dwellers like me.

    i dont mind the way the prius look, i'm just saying that the prius would probably not be as successful as it is if it didn't wear its 'greeness' on its sleeve. i think choosing a car that says i car about the environment/saving gas/what have you etc in a very subtle way is far classier than one that says 'look at me i'm green!'. how many hybrid badges are on the prius anyway? lol. at any rate, that part of the german car appeal, understated elegance. the prius doesn't have any. the tdi does.

    i'm a bigger highway driver than you backy, and diesels, while they do fine in the city, seem to make more sense for highway cruisers. and i also care about driving dynamics, and most hybrids are withouthem. the prius is totally devoid of steering feel, has poor body roll control, and is less involving than a lexus to drive.

    sure hybrid owners may not care about vehicle dynamics, but VW realizes that saving gas and getting good fuel economy doesn't mean you have to sacrifice being a car enthusiast.

    Yep, pretty solid. I do hope however that VW has done a better job in the new Golf in the squeaks/rattles/wind whistles department. I did get two rattles finally fixed in my Rabbit, but a loud wind whistle from the passenger door has defied repair up to now. I have to take it in soon and see if the dealer can fix it for good this time

    my bunny kinda had some squeaks now and then, but all subsided/were not that bad to merit a trip to the dealer. i'd take the solidity and quietness of that cabin over my fit anyday.

    from what i have read, the new mkVi is even quiter, with an even greater attention to detail.
  • "You have pointed out the fallacy of the EPA fuel economy ratings. Many of US including VW corporate have complained that the new calculations are very accurate for the hybrids and out in left field for the diesel cars. As your little exercise graphically points out. The average VW Jetta TDI owner gets about 19% better overall mileage than the EPA estimates. While the Prius is within 3% of the EPA rating."

    I agree and actually I don't care for these "two number" tests whether EPA, Euro or anyone else. In fact, I cited the user reported MPG.

    Personally, I prefer to see "mph vs MPG" charts because they let us choose the best cruise speeds versus just banging our wallets against the fuel pumps:
    image

    You'll notice the 1.5L Prius have a distinct 'knee in the curve' at 65 mph. Anything faster and their mileage soon drops off. Also, the 1.3L Honda Insight has a pretty steep slope. They really need to stay on the low side of 65 mph or their mileage tanks.

    This is the type of performance data that should be in the owner's handbook for every car. For example, manual transmission cars often have distinct upper and lower speed ranges but unless someone spends a lot of time taking measurements, this is invisible to the owner ... yet I suspect the manufacturers have this data already.

    BTW, if someone likes the creature comforts and non-fuel economy features of their ride and they can afford it ... more power to them. By the same token, folks need to realize that my "green" need is the money I keep instead of burning up. To each their own and that is the beauty of freedom.

    Bob Wilson
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,160
    "Great. I am glad you are in agreement that it is silly to compare specs on these cars (Golf TDI and Prius) while considering only a portion of their powertrains. So from now on, please mention total system output when referring to both cars' horsepower and torque. "...

    Well I am glad you caught the effect of the 193 # ft electrical motor in the Camry Hybrid zero to 60 second time of 8.4 seconds vs the TDI Zero to 60 time of 8.9 seconds !! I can't even imagine what the E/T would be (probably much LONGER) without that massive electric motor that is good from 0-1500 rpms. In addition, the Camry Hybrid sports a 2.4 L motor vs the TDI's smaller 2.0 L.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,160
    Has anybody hit a local VW dealer for the scuttle butt on when the new GTD will hit the show rooms?
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla MarylandPosts: 703
    The last I heard was that the GTD wasn't coming to the US because it didn't meet US emission standards.
This discussion has been closed.