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Toyota Prius vs VW Golf TDI

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  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,727
    i dont mind the way the prius look, i'm just saying that the prius would probably not be as successful as it is if it didn't wear its 'greeness' on its sleeve.

    And maybe the Golf would not be as successful if it didn't wear it's Germanic influence on its sleeve? ;)

    How does the solidity of your (former) Rabbit's cabin compare to that of the 2010 Prius?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,727
    Well I am glad you caught the effect of the 193 # ft electrical motor in the Camry Hybrid zero to 60 second time of 8.4 seconds vs the TDI Zero to 60 time of 8.9 seconds !!

    Uh... yes. I mentioned the effect of the Prius' electric motors many posts ago and tried multiple times to have you acknowledge that they impact the performance of the car. As I said, I'm glad we can move past that little speedbump now. I'm not sure we can, though, 'cause you keep making statements like, "I can't even imagine what the E/T would be (probably much LONGER) without that massive electric motor that is good from 0-1500 rpms." So while you acknowledge now the contribution to overall performance of the electric motors, you keep treating them as if they are something separate from the car. You would probably laugh if I said something like, "I can't even imagine what the E/T for the TDI would be (probably much LONGER) without that turbocharger that is good only under some driving situations."
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,896
    It started with your post #465 where YOU separated it out ! In effect you tried to say you add the torque together through the band width 138# ft with 193 # ft or 331 # ft. So it is pretty obvious when the electric motor kicks in is the time the gasser engine is off which helps to give the higher mpg ratings. The percentage difference is easy to see by looking up the Camry mpg figures (sans hybrid) I finally had to give you the real world Zero to 60 times to get you to focus. So let's move on.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,727
    You have a short memory. Go back to your post #401 (emphasis mine):

    Really in terms of competition ,the Camry hybrid more matches the Jetta in hp (147 hp vs VW TDI 140 hp. Torque (the real motivator) is somewhat mismatched 138# ft vs TDI's 236 #ft.

    There, and in several posts after that, you separated out the electric motor components of the Hybrid Synergy Drive and compared the output of the TDI to the output (hp and torque) of ONLY the ICE portion of the HSD. You completely ignored a major part of the HSD system. And I was clear in my earlier post that the 199 lb-ft of torque from the electric motors in the TCH was from 0-1500 RPM. So you are misquoting me when you say "in effect you tried to say you add the torque together through the band width".

    If you can prove that the only time the electric motors "kick in" for the Prius is when the gas engine is off, as you stated, please do. But I don't think you can because that's not how HSD works. Under hard acceleration, for example, both the gas engine and electric motors will contribute. Just like on a TDI, under hard acceleration the motor will be churning and the turbo will be spinning fast.

    Now that I have corrected your misstatements, let's move on.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,896
    ..."Really in terms of competition ,the Camry hybrid more matches the Jetta in hp (147 hp vs VW TDI 140 hp. Torque (the real motivator) is somewhat mismatched 138# ft vs TDI's 236 #ft. "...

    Sorry guy, the above quote is still true about the Camry Hybrid, However lets do move on. And yes, I do know how the hybrid intergrates. The real world measures such as mpgs and zero to 60's times are the arbiters. The hybrid system really dont do much in the band width that is most important to me: 45 mph to 100 + mph (above 1,500 rpms) .

    Since the Prius fits your needs, that is what you care about anyway.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,727
    Sorry guy, the above quote is still true about the Camry Hybrid,

    With one little change: The above quote is still true about the Camry Hybrid if you ignore the fact that it is a gas/electric hybrid.

    45 to 100+ mph, eh? Well, I see you and I are in a TOTALLY different world.

    "Through Truth to Freedom"
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,896
    "45 to 100+ mph, eh? Well, I see you and I are in a TOTALLY different world. "

    It would appear so. However starting @ 45 mph is pretty much the real world in this area. I notice Prius'es in that envelope. It is a tad bit hard to get mpg figures from Prius folks that operate in that envelope, as it appears a sizeable majority want to claim (king/queen of the hill dibs) 50 mpg or more, whether they do or not. I just really want an honest discusssion. To follow the "Toyota Prius Real World Numbers" mpg discussion, it would appear the majority is driving 55 mph or less to try to fight for the dibs and taking up hyper miling up as a serious hobby. It seems a few that report less than that are seen as less than worthy. WAY too much mental energy for not much gain.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,018
    Since you haven't driven the Gen 3 Prius yet, nor the Golf TDI, how do you know that the Golf beats the Prius in wind, snow, ice, and mountains? I can see the mountains. But wind, snow, and ice? A lot of that has to do with tire grip and effectiveness of brakes and ESC.

    There are numerous complaints by Prius owners getting stuck because of the traction control on the Prius. As far as I know Toyota has not put a switch to disable that feature for driving in snow or on ice. The VWs have a switch to disable all the electronic gadgetry that takes control of the vehicle away from the driver. I prefer it that way.

    Toyota is unable to modify the troublesome Prius traction control system without placing the vehicle's sophisticated hybrid drive system in jeopardy, according to a Toyota service technician familiar with the Prius problem.

    In a mountainous or snowy areas, the little car can be more than just difficult, Prius owners complain.

    "I live in the mountains, up steep hills and dirt roads. I consider the slippage problem with the shutting down of power to the wheels just when you need more not less traction to be a very serious problem and a potentially life-threatening design flaw," a New England Prius owner told ConsumerAffairs.com.


    Again, the Prius is fine as a flat city car. Anything beyond that the Golf TDI will outshine the Prius.
  • And maybe the Golf would not be as successful if it didn't wear it's Germanic influence on its sleeve?

    How does the solidity of your (former) Rabbit's cabin compare to that of the 2010 Prius


    lol! true i guess. granted its probably difficult to 'wear' something as understated than that, but thanks for the laugh. :)

    while i didnt absolutely HATE the new priuses interior, the quality of the swithchgear, surface textures and driving position all felt below that of my rabbit. def. better than the least gen prius, but still nothing to write home about. it looks cooler than it feels.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,727
    There is another point of view also. See for example:

    I think I can understand both points of view. I just experienced my first real snow fall with the Prius. Portland just received 10 inches of snowfall overnight. Unfortunately, the city does not aggressively plow/salt the roads here. The local DOT posted a chains required warning for the entire city. As I do have to report to work tomorrow, I decided to test the conditions in the neighborhood. After shoveling out my driveway, the Prius(2007 touring) hit the streets. I was very impressed. The VSC system is very aggressive. I found that it under a great majority of conditions, it kept the car moving with exceptional stability. All of my previous cars(front wheel drive) tended to pull to one side. The VSC system(yellow light blinking constantly) kept it very steady. I did run into the power cut off phenomenon several times. Essentially, if the car has no traction it will not spin the wheels. This happened when I ran the car in 6-8 inches of unplowed snow. It was somewhat disconcerting, but I do believe that any other(similarly sized, fwd) car would have just been stuck spinning the wheels. Both times this happened, I was able to quickly remedy the problem by gently reversing and approaching from a slightly different angle. It actually is quite adept and doing the most with the least traction available. ( As some of you have pointed out, the Prius probably has less weight over the front wheels than most cars.)
    The Prius does not give you the traction of four wheel drive and you should probably put chains on in severe conditions. If I had the option of driving a 4x4 Duramax in really bad weather, I would. (Sadly I don't) However, I am very impressed with the VSC system. Having experienced midwest and east coast winters all my life, I think this system makes you look good. For example, I am used to building up some speed to make turns with heavy snow buildup. In my older cars, this maneuver would give me some serious "fishtailing". This is essentially eliminated with the Prius. This is without a doubt, the best car I have ever owned for snow driving. (Previous contenders SAAB 900(92-98), VW GTI(99-07))


    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f1212ea/39#MSG39

    Would I want to own a Prius if I lived in an area with steep hills or mountains, with snow/ice? No. I wouldn't own any 2WD vehicle in that kind of environment. I'd go with an AWD vehicle. And probably put winter tires on it in winter.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,727
    Regarding envelopes... what's your FE at 100 mph in your VW turbodiesel? I thought you'd track that because you have reported your FE here and in other sites.

    As for me, my goal is to do 45 to 100 also--but in mpg. I know 100 mpg is not achievable now under normal circumstances, even in a Prius, but I am confident I could average well over 50 in a Prius, with a big bias towards in-town driving. And maybe by the time I am ready to buy my next car, the plug-in Prius with lithium ion batteries will be available, and that 100 mpg will be closer to reality.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,018
    I would not hold my breath for Toyota to offer a Plug-in hybrid. Having followed your posts for many years you do a lot of looking and testing before buying. You end up getting the most bang for your buck. I don't think the Prius will ever be the most bang for the buck. I really doubt the Golf TDI will be either. Too many options from Hyundai and Mazda. Every vehicle is a compromise. I have NEVER owned a vehicle that I was totally satisfied with. Well maybe my 1984 full sized Bronco. I loved that vehicle and hated to sell it.
  • Other than me, Is everyone in here employed by either Toyota or Volkswagen? You all are amazingly resiliant with your opinions. There hasn't been a single day in the past 2 months that this thread wasn't full with new posts. Entertaining if nothing else. Time consuming is another word that comes to mind...
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,018
    Just got an email with the pricing on the 2010 Golf.
    Trim Engine Transmission MSRP**
    Golf 2-door 2.5L 170 hp Five-speed manual $ 17,490
    Golf 2-door 2.5L 170 hp Six-speed automatic with Tiptronic® $ 18,590
    Golf 4-door 2.5L 170 hp Six-speed automatic with Tiptronic® $ 19,190
    Golf 2-door TDI 2.0L 140 hp Six-speed manual $ 22,189
    Golf 2-door TDI 2.0L 140 hp Six-speed automatic DSG® with Tiptronic® $ 23,289
    Golf 4-door TDI 2.0L 140 hp Six-speed manual $ 22,789
    Golf 4-door TDI 2.0L 140 hp Six-speed automatic DSG® with Tiptronic® $ 23,889
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,727
    Plus $700 destination on those prices, correct? If so, that puts the 4-door automatic TDI at $24,589. Even the base Golf 2.5 is now over $18k. I am even more glad I got my Certified 2007 Rabbit 6AT this spring for $11k + T&L. With prices like those, my car might actually go up in value. :)
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,018
    Sounds like you made a good buy. The Golf TDI price is about what people were getting a loaded Sportwagen TDI for a few months back. As a comparison, the largest inventory of 2010 Prius in San Diego are priced from $25,980 to $33,400. Most of the inventory is over $31k. Makes the Golf TDI a better buy. Yes you have to add $700 Destination charge on the VW. If they bring in a decent supply the prices will drop.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,727
    I'd wait for the lower-priced Prius before I'd pay $26k plus for one. I don't need all the extra equipment, and I'm not in any hurry. Maybe selection will be better in MN than in Prius-crazy CA.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,727
    I would not hold my breath for Toyota to offer a Plug-in hybrid.

    No need to...

    Toyota will unveil its long anticipated plug-in hybrid Prius at the Frankfurt Motor Show. In early 2010, over 500 Prius PHEVs will be leased to fleet customers in Japan, the United States, and Europe. These pre-production cars will let Toyota evaluate their performance in a real-world environment before full-scale production starts. Retail sales are planned for 2012.


    http://www.greencar.com/articles/toyota-unveil-lithium-ion-powered-prius-plug-hy- brid.php

    And here's the report from Frankfurt:
    http://www.autoblog.com/2009/09/21/frankfurt-2009-2010-toyota-prius-plug-in-hybr- id-cant-get-any-g/

    Since I will be buying my next car in late 2012, then replace our minivan in 2013, this is great timing for me. I'll probably wait for the minivan replacement to go for the Prius. Maybe a Golf in 2012, depending on how my Rabbit holds up before then. :)
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,018
    Seeing is believing. The PHEV Prius were supposed to be out in late 2008 on the market. They had test models in 2006. I don't think Li-Ion is ready for mainstream yet.

    Just how new is Toyota's plug-in Prius? Maybe older than we think
    This Friday, Toyota will deliver two plug-in Priuses to UC Davis for testing purposes. We've known about Toyota's PHEV Prius plan for a while now (the official announcement came back in July), but one of our clever readers, Joseph, submitted a tip that explains that perhaps the plug-in Prius has been in the works for six months, maybe even a year, before the July public acknowledgment. I'll let him explain:

    The PHEV Prius prototypes from Toyota were revealed on July 25, 2007.


    http://green.autoblog.com/2007/11/07/just-how-new-is-toyotas-plug-in-prius-maybe- -older-than-we-thin/
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,018
    Another thing to think about. The Tax credit for EV or PHEV is based on the capacity of the battery. Volt was designed to get the maximum credit or maybe the other way around. The Prius PHEV will have less than a third the capacity of the Volt making the tax credit much less. Of course the batteries will also be less.

    The PHEV Prius can operate in electric-only mode for about 12 miles at speeds up to 60 mph or so. This is about seven miles more than the current non-PHEV Prius. Apparently, this battery capacity was sized for European rather than American commuting habits. According to Toyota’s research, in the UK about 80 percent of trips are less than 6 miles and in France this number is 15 miles. For American commuters, the typically used all-electric commuting number is a much more demanding 40 miles, which is the all-electric capability of the Chevrolet Volt.

    The Senate bill would give buyers a base-line credit of $2,500 for buying a vehicle powered by a 4-kilowatt hour battery. An additional $417 would be added for each KWh of battery power beyond that up to a total limit of $7,500.

    http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/24/autos/plug-in_tax_credit/index.htm?section=money- _autos
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,727
    I don't think Li-Ion is ready for mainstream yet.

    Obviously neither does Toyota. That's why they're doing field testing of 500 cars before they ramp up for production in 2012. What's your rush? Can't wait to buy one of those PHEV Priuses? ;)

    One of the best attributes of the Prius is its reliability. Why would Toyota want to jeopardize that by rushing new technology to market?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,727
    How big is the traction battery on the Golf TDI, and what is its tax credit? In other words... why is this an issue?

    A lot of trips in our household are less than 12 miles roundtrip, at city speeds (much less than 60 mph), so that will compute to, what kind of mpg do you think? Pretty high I'd say. :)
  • "Golf 4-door TDI 2.0L 140 hp Six-speed automatic DSG® with Tiptronic® $ 23,889"
    34 mpg EPA composite rating

    Prius 4-door 1.8L 134 hp CVT automatic $22,000 - www.toyota.com
    50 mpg EPA composite rating

    Consumer Reports defined a $/mpg as a way to rate the cost for any given mileage. So this allows us to use the listed prices by both VW and Toyota along with the EPA mileage to calculate the $/mpg:

    $23,889 / 34 mpg = $702.62 / MPG - Golf dollars per mpg
    $22,000 / 50 mpg = $440.00 / MPG - Prius dollars per mpg

    Ok, what would be the price of an equivalent Prius using the Golf dollars per mpg:

    $702.62 * 50 mpg = $35,131 - Prius priced at the same Golf dollars per mpg

    So we have this range of Prius prices, $22,000 to $35,131, to compare the 4-door, automatic transmissions and similar displacement engines.

    Bob Wilson
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,018
    I am not sure where you live. In CA the average 2010 Prius is over $29k. The dealer with the largest inventory only had 3 Prius out of 14 under $29k. Making your calculation more like $580 per MPG. Again the Prius may be the mileage champ and have a bit more storage space than the Golf. When you look at the list I do the Prius still comes up short on what is most important to me.
    VW Golf ahead in the following list:
    Handling
    braking
    safety
    wind bucking
    ride
    ergonomics
    quality of materials

    Not to mention the fact that Toyota uses insulation in the Prius wiring that seems to attract rats and mice. Another dirty little secret.

    Rats love Prius wiring
  • "I am not sure where you live," doesn't matter as the car market place is larger than just the nearest car dealership. We both have access to the same manufacturer's list prices and another, nation wide, public market place, Ebay:

    Price - Ebay item - vehicle
    $22,950 - 350251239669 - 2010 Prius
    $25,297 - 360191062085 - 2010 Jetta TDI

    I bought our first Prius in 2005 through Ebay and flew to Fort Worth Texas to drive it back. A used, 2003 Prius, I got it for $1,000 under Kelly Blue Book value and added 70,000 miles at over 52 MPG.

    When I bought my wife's new 2010 Prius, it was a special offer and I was able to select my dealership. I choose the highest ranked dealership in North Alabama even though it is 45 miles away and I have been pleased with their service.

    Costco has a car buying service and it includes the Prius. This means we can actually shop ... we have options. Heck, even Edmunds, our host, has a car location service.

    Bob Wilson
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,727
    The 2010 Prius is an IIHS Top Safety Pick. The 2010 Golf hasn't been tested by the IIHS yet, or at least the results were not announced. But the 2009 Jetta was a Top Safety Pick so it's likely the 2010 Golf will be also.

    Have you driven the 2010 Golf and Prius back-to-back to compare the ride, wind bucking, ergonomics etc.? I haven't, so I haven't made any conclusions yet on how the two cars compare in those areas.

    As for rats chewing wiring in a Prius... rats and mice chew wires, and lots of other stuff. That behavior is not restricted to the Prius. I suppose next you are going to try to make some link between the Prius and H1N1. :sick:

    http://askville.amazon.com/mice-chew-electrical-wires/DiscussionBoard.do?request- Id=8003348&page=1
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    No Base Model Prius for consumers

    qutoe-
    The Prius gets a $400 price increase, starting October 18. The base model of the popular hybrid will now be sold in limited quantities to fleet buyers only. The lowest-end Prius available to the general public will cost $23,150. The top model will be priced at $28,420. -end
  • So the Prius sale ends Oct. 18 ... time to get one now.

    Bob Wilson
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,890
    If you are a parent and drive a ’08-’10 Jetta TDI, please email pr@edmunds.com to be interviewed.

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  • It's almost winter in New England, just drove to Vermont from CT and diesel prices are running slightly higher than premium prices. There's about a 10-20% gap between RUG and diesel, for some reason the spread gets bigger the further north you go (maybe because of heating oil demand?).
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