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Toyota Prius vs VW Golf TDI

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  • July 2009 sales are in:

    24,295 Toyota hybrids, up 19.3%
    VW all sales, 20,590, up 0.7%, and 6,320 diesels
    Ford sales are up 1.6%

    Prius is in the top 10 model sales for July. The free market whispered in July, "Prius," which thundered through the halls of VW. Even Ford got a taste thanks to their hybrids.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    30% of ALL of VW's sales are diesel for July.
    Are 30% of all of Toyota's sales hybrids?
  • bhill2bhill2 Posts: 1,404
    Since there isn't stringent regulation with respect to bio-diesel

    I think that you have the secret there. To be fair, I can't blame manufacturers for not wanting to warrant an engine that has been run on biodiesel of unknown quality. We have to set some standards for the actual content of the fuel (limitations on impurities, minimum cetane rating and so on), put a certification process in place, and then require manufacturers to honor warranties if the car is run on fuel from a certified source.

    2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv, 2001 Jaguar XK cnv, 1985 MB 380SE (the best of the lot)

  • Prius vs. the world !!! - Cagematch Live on PPV Saturday night!!

    The first responder in this thread gave a very unbiased, excellent post on the positives of each choice. Extremely well spoken and helpful. Then Prius guy shows up with his brass knuckles on and nearly ruins the thread.

    Relax Prius guy, all diesel guy is trying to do is get an efficient car - just like you have. Support a guy trying to be environmentally friendly just like yourself instead of having the mindset of "Well if you don't own a Prius like I do, you are inferior and less intellegent". Wow this country would be awful boring with nothing but Prius's driving down the street. Bad thought there.

    If Prius guy makes it a point to knock diesel or electric guy, he is being detrimental to the overall cause of our country poluting less and become less reliant on foreign oil. Go ahead and rip Hummer H2 owner in flat terrain Miami getting 9mpg. But support a guy trying to buy a compact diesel that is good for the planet - just like your beloved hybrid.
  • VW sales are miniscule compared to Toyota's so it is not a good comparison. The Prius seems to be doing quite well. I'm so happy I can scream!!!!!!!!
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,158
    How do you figure? VW sold 3.1 million vehicles first half. Toyota 3.5 million. VW sold over 50% diesel. What percentage of Toyota sales world wide are hybrids? The only reason VW does not have a large footprint in the US is very well placed lobby money by the other automakers, environmental groups and the oil companies that support those groups. Oil Companies do not want to sacrifice gas sales to diesel cars. Follow the money. The Prius is an ok choice, when you have no other high mileage choice. The Jetta Sportswagen TDI beats the Prius in all but two points of the dozen I can think of. As was pointed out, it would be nice if we could all appreciate the advantages offered by any vehicle that is environmentally friendly. The only thing the Golf TDI will give up to the Prius will be cargo space.

    Highway mileage cruising speed limit 70 MPH = VW TDI
    City mileage = Prius
    Cargo space = Sportswagen
    Acceleration = VW TDI
    cornering = VW TDI
    emissions = Prius?
    braking = VW TDI
    Comfort = VW TDI
    Ride = VW TDI
    Cabin Noise level = VW TDI
    Crosswind handling = VW TDI
    Interior quality = VW TDI
  • I am referring to VW sales in the US. Toyota demolishes them in this regard. As to reliability. VW reliability sucks but has been improving lately. As to mileage. well the Prius wins on all counts. Many independent tests have been conducted and where the Prius really shines is in city mileage as compared to the TDI. The way things seem to be headed it appears that electric cars or hybrids are where manufacturers seem to be investing their R & D. I just read about the Nissan Leaf that looks very promising!! Americans will not embrace diesels. There are a few die hards but their numbers are small. WItness the success of the Prius. Heck, they can't even keep up with the demand for the 2010. The TDI is an also ran. Sorry to burst your bubble.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,158
    Not sure how close you follow these trends. Toyota reliability started slipping in 2007 and VW keeps getting better. There are many aspects of a vehicle that are more important than reliability for me. Handling & braking being way out in front.

    They are not keeping up with the demand for the Jetta TDI which outsells the Prius world wide. The only reason the Prius is successful in the US and Japan is the limited choices. They cannot give a Prius away in the EU. Toyota builds diesels for all other countries except the USA. You like the Prius that is great. My experience is mostly negative with the 09 Prius I have ridden in.

    I am sure there will be a waiting list for the Golf TDI when it arrives next month. Problem is the US dollar being nearly worthless is not able to draw quality cars. So we get the dregs from Japan, Korea and Germany.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    As to reliability. VW reliability sucks but has been improving lately

    Does your statement have any meaning in terms of real world data? Quantify the difference in reliability between a VW TDI and a Toyota Prius.
  • There may be a waiting list but the limited quantities available will not be anything comparable to the highly successful Prius. It seems GM is trying to take some headlines now releasing information on their Volt's mileage claim of 230 MPG. Interesting how they claim it will cost 40 cents a day to charge. They base their claim on 5 cents per KW. Not sure when/where electric is that cheap. Typical GM showmanship. Getting back to Toyota. Their quality did slip but no where near the basement that VW is in with respect to their quality. Just do a search on VW reliability and you'll see what I mean.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    I did a search jpeters and all I found was opinion and anecdotal whining.

    Looking forward to reading about some real data. Or perhaps there is no basis for the "suck" comments.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,158
    I do agree the Volt is likely to be a flop. Then so is the new Honda Insight & the Toy/Lex hybrids other than the Prius. Prius hit a segment like myself looking for high mileage in a usable vehicle. I myself came close to buying the original Prius the month they hit the market. If you remember the last shortage of Prius in the USA when gas came close to $5. Our resident Toyota Salesman pointed out that the dollar made it less profitable to sell the Prius here vs Japan or other world markets. The same thing goes for VW TDIs that are built in Europe and not here or Mexico. I believe all the diesel engines are still built in Europe. With 50-70% of all VW sales being diesel it makes it tough to supply our country that has yet to accept diesel as they have everywhere else.

    Keep in mind that VW still made a profit the first half of the year. They have not had a loss as Toyota did with their poor calculation of the market. I would rather buy from a profitable company than one that is losing money.

    GM's crazy claims for the Volt are so out of touch with reality. If I owned one it would cost me about 35 cents per KWH. So charging a 16 KWH battery would be about $5.60 per night. If I owned a Golf TDI or as you a Prius I could go about 98 miles at the current price of gas or diesel. The Volt has a 40 mile range on battery only. So when gas gets to $6 per gallon the Volt will be a break even deal. That does not take into consideration the electric keeps going higher as you use more. So during the AC months it could go even higher.
  • morey000morey000 Posts: 357
    Wow. 35 cents per KWhr? I gather you don't live in the US. That's a very high rate. The average in the US is below 10 cents per KWhr. Places like CA and New England are ~12 cents. Wyoming is under 6 cents.

    If you're paying 35 cents per KWhr, then a plug in electric car isn't for you.

    however, for the average american, they'll be paying $ 1.60 to charge that 16KWh battery (is that what it is?). That's equivalent to getting about 70mpg.
  • You must be using a lousy search engine. Try starting with consumer reports. Ahh but no.. if it isn't in your favor then it MUST be wrong. I've owned 4 VW products in the last five years. To me, that is proof enough. I've had the Prius for six years (almost) and NO un scheduled trips to the dealer. I love it.

    Gagrice:
    Sad to say you're right. The Volt will be a flop. Honda's Insight is too much like a Prius in looks. I sat in one and saw how cheap it was. It still has IMA and is NOT a full hybrid. One the 2010 Prius came out the Insight sales took a nose dive. The 2010 Prius puts mine to shame in terms of content. I love gadgets and when you load that sucker up you never will get tired of the gizmos. I absolutely LOVE the Ford Fusion Hybrid and am very tempted to put that on my shopping list in the next few years.

    Lastly, if VW had Honda reliability I'd be very tempted. Nothing against diesels at all. I just have had it with VW. I LOVE the BWM 330D but it is out of my price range. That is probably the best of both worlds. Great power, fantastic handling and last but not least, phenomenal mileage. Sorry to say, I have not seen ONE on the road yet. Doesn't seem like diesels are making any inroads. Sad.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,158
    Better look close at your bill. I have mine in my hand. In CA the rate is a little over 12 cents for the first 342 KWHs per month. Then it goes crazy. When you get to 586 KWHs the rate is just under 35 cents per hour plus applicable taxes. So an EV will be added on to the rest of your usage. Making it in California about $5.60 to charge fully. That is about 20 MPG. When Cap n Trade is added expect that to go up another 25-50%.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,158
    I agree the Ford Fusion hybrid is tempting. My choice for BMW is the X5 35D. I loved driving that rig. I know I would get tickets. It was so much faster than my Sequoia. Handles like a sports car. I am sorry to hear you had so much trouble with VW. That will turn a person off for sure. I would feel the same way.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    I've owned 4 VW products in the last five years. To me, that is proof enough. I've had the Prius for six years (almost) and NO un scheduled trips to the dealer. I love it.

    All anecdote and no data. Hearsay is untrustworthy. The truth finally is provided that you own a Prius and have an chip on your shoulder against VW.

    Please share the data from your "search engine".

    What is the quantifiable difference in reliability between VW TDI and Prius?
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Quantifiable?

    Is there a way to quantify obnoxious because if there is you win the prize based on your recent posts poohpoohing every fact presented by a forum member here. Untrustworthy, hearsay? Have you ever heard of JD Powers and Consumers Report and did you ever notice the stellar rankings of most VWs? Naah, I didn't think so!

    Long term reliabilty VW TDI rankings is non-existent because it is a recent vehicle. To claim that the existing VW Jetta TDI is as reliable as a Prius (backed with over a decade of survey results) because there is not enough survey results for the Jetta is just plain DUMB and I think you are smart enough to know that :confuse: .

    By the way have you noticed how stellar the VW TDI reliability rankings are for their prior generation models. Naah, I didn't think so too!

    Based on the consistently lousy results of most VWs in almost every reliability sruvery there is a very good likelihood that the VW Jetta TDI is one humungous :lemon:

    A chip on my shoulder? I guess that is exactly what you would say. ;)
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    LOVE the BWM 330D but it is out of my price range.


    I just sold my 07 BMW 335i and I am glad I got rid of that piece of #!%!%&&@!!!!!

    After 32 months of BMW 335i ownership I went 32 times to the dealership for various malfunctions and problems some of them recurring. I had a lousy sales experience. Lousy service experiences. A lousy car and even when I tried to sell my car to the dealership I got a shoddy reception (fortunately I sold my BMW335 privately and got a good resale value)

    If I was offered a diesel BMW 335d with a 80 percent price discount I would still say no.

    That is not to say every single BMW is a lemon but for me it was a bit too close and personal and I will never get a BMW ever again. Life is too short for aggravations.

    If you are happy with the dependability of Toyotas and Hondas then stick to them .I took a risk and I truly regret it. In my humble opinion German cars were once the best in the world--I still own a 83 MB 300 Diesel . Today that is a different story and I would only buy a German car if it was top ranked in long term reliability statistics as the 83 MB 300D once was.

    Currently I love my 2010 Prius and cant think of any other car I would rather drive. This car is the best of the best engineering available today. What more can a driver want? The driving dynamics of a BMW 335i? Thanks but no thanks. ;)
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    Is there a way to quantify obnoxious because if there is you win the prize based on your recent posts poohpoohing every fact presented by a forum member here. Untrustworthy, hearsay? Have you ever heard of JD Powers and Consumers Report and did you ever notice the stellar rankings of most VWs? Naah, I didn't think so!

    Obnoxious is anecdotal postings of "my BMW is crap and all BMW's are crap because I had a problem with a BMW, stay away from BMW lemons" type of material that you and others post without any type of objectivity.

    You have not posted one relevant quantifiable fact about reliability of Prius or TDI.

    JD Power data has shown that the difference between Toyota reliability and VW is 1.3 problems per vehicle.

    Consumer Reports has listed both Jetta and Golf TDI as recommended and same with Prius. CR has listed reliability of Jetta TDI as better than average.

    Using "suck" and "lemon" and "humungous" (LOL, y'all use sophisticated words) is colorful though completely lacking any value other than entertainment.

    If someone is considering a purchase of a vehicle and they are concerned about reliability, they want to know how many and what type of problems would be expected.

    For example, a 2001 Golf TDI had known problems with window regulators and MAF sensors, both of which are corrected with revised components and both of which were covered by VW even after warranty as they recognized the problem.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,913
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  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    From the Fuel Sipper Smackdown
    The Conclusion
    The big news is that the 2010 Toyota Prius (base price $22,000) secures a straight sweep by achieving essentially the same fuel economy regardless of driving environment. Conventional wisdom used to be that the Prius was good for city dwellers and that frequent road trippers should look elsewhere. These results would prove otherwise, and the new Prius proved to be a better long-distance car than before, with a bit more power and a more comfortable cabin.

    The 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI ($22,270) proved the promise of clean diesel technology. While not delivering the best gas mileage or the lowest price, the Jetta is better equipped than the hybrids' base models and feels the most like a normal car. With fewer costly technologies onboard, there are also fewer costly technologies to fix or replace in the long term. Of course, the fluctuating cost of diesel fuel is something to consider


    This was the Jetta that was tested, the Golf TDI will arrive on your shores in the near future and it is next generation platform compared to 2009 Jetta.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Ok I will spare you my colorful language about cars but at least my colorful language is not directed towards people.

    I never said all BMWs were unreliable? Those were my own personal experiences with my very own car I guess you were a bit confused. :confuse:

    So here's the colorless facts:

    The Prius has stronger reliability ratings than a VW TDI. "Better than average VW TDI results" does not equate to Prius reliability. In fact there is not a single VW that has the reliability of a Prius. Not one! Overall VWs are ranked among the last in most reliability surveys.Those are the facts.

    Oh and by the way if you find everybody's experiences with their own cars useless than why are you here? My suggestion is that you focus on CR and JD Power surveys and then who knows by next week you will have a Prius in your garage. :P

    Anyways you do sound like a very happy person and I salute you for your love of diesels. My car love is directed towards my amazing 2010 Prius and I am incredibly ecstatic(pardon my colorful language).

    At least we are two happy people. What's there to argue about. ;)

    And please pardon those colorful icons above.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    When you state that Prius has better reliability than TDI, what is the difference in reliability?

    Will the Prius have 1 problem per 100 vehicles and the TDI have 1.00000000000001 problem per 100 vehicles?

    I'm not a CR subscriber and circles that are half full or half empty don't mean much to me in terms of data.

    Buick (Buick and Jaguar tied for No. 1 in 2009 JD Power vehicle dependability) is rated higher in reliability than Toyota, yet that would not be sufficient reason to buy a Buick or Jaguar.

    My point is this, the gap between 1st and last for reliability has diminished so greatly in recent years that there is a statistically small difference in reliability. Buy the vehicle that meets your needs and makes you happy.

    VW has higher predicted residual value than Toyota as a brand. Both TDI and Prius are among the highest predicted retained values as individual models.

    Prius obtains better mpg than TDI. That is understood.

    TDI is much more comfortable and fun to drive than Prius IMO.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,154
    I for one am looking forward to the roll out of the GTD either the 2010/2011. Initial indications are @ $18,000. Till that time the only thing that is close and might be off topic is the 2009 Jetta TDI. While we get 39-45 mpg, that has been in break in mode .

    In some respects the engines (Prius/TDI) are not in the ball park. As such, the reality is more like comparing mpg. That being true a more apples to apples comparison is a Camry/Accord V6 # ft @ 254 19/29/22 against the 2009 Jetta TDI 2.0, # ft of torque @ 236 29/40/ 37.

    When I got the 2003 Jetta TDI, I actually looked at both the 2003 Prius and 2004 Civic hybrid. Fuel mileage was better @35/44/42 03 TDI, although my ranges have been 48-52 vs 03 Prius of 42/41/41. I got neither hybrid as they would NOT deal at all. In fact in terms of price the real competition is the Toyota Corolla/Honda Civic.

    Looking forward the anomalies continue to exist in the the 2010/2010 Golf TDI will be the sports version (GTI) vs the 2010 Prius which is not even in the same league as the Camry V6.

    I am glad to see however that Prius after many years of good advertising about 50 mpg is actually getting 50 mpg. Seems there were a fair number of very dissatisfied Prius owners. But with the new "cooked" EPA numbers which favor the Prius and improvements to the current model Prius there is less rancor within the Prius ranks.

    Incidently the 2009 (less than 9k) , 2003 (121k) Jetta TDI's have been literally flawless as has been the 2004 (90k) Honda Civic, we got in lieu of either the Prius, Civic hybrid. However I am guessing that will not go unvilified. ;)
  • Well... I for one do not have a "chip" on my shoulder because of the issues if had with VWs and Audis. It is a shame the such a nicely made vehicle (their interiors are among the best in the business) can have so many issues. I certainly would consider one down the road when I have seen that their reliability has improved. For now, I'll keep away.

    On a lighter note, I just passed the 70,000 mile mark on my 2004 Prius and I just averaged 51.3 on the most recent tankful of gas. I can't think too far ahead but it looks as though a new Prius (2015 model) may be in my driveway :confuse:

    Dewey.. so sorry to hear that you've had problems with your Bimmer. I know they can be quite expensive to repair. That is why you can get a 3 yr old 7 series for less than half of what it was priced when new. My friend recently sold his six year old 3 series because of the thousands in maintenance he was spending on a low mileage out of warranty vehicle. He ended up buying a Camry. :surprise:

    I still love the fact that I can glide in traffic without my engine idling. These days I seem to be doing lots of city driving and the TDI would never get the type of mileage I get in the city. Oh.. anyone hear that there is only a 13 day supply of the new 2010 Prius? They can't keep 'em on the ground... talk about selling like hotcakes!!! Whew!!
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,158
    anyone hear that there is only a 13 day supply of the new 2010 Prius? They can't keep 'em on the ground... talk about selling like hotcakes!!! Whew!!

    Seems like a lot to me with the C4C program emptying the Ford lots of Escapes, Focus and Fusions. There are a lot more 2010 Prius available in San Diego than VW TDIs. The TDIs pretty much sell off of the truck. Can't wait to test drive the Golf TDI. If there is any clunker cash left I may trade in my Ranger on one. Only car I would consider at this time. Don't need it, just be handy for running errands. Diesel still cheaper here than RUG. RUG $2.99 D2 $2.89.
  • Get back to me in the winter when diesel will be going up again. Last year the price difference was quite large (almost 80cents more per gallon). OUCH!!! There are so few TDIs that it is no surprise that they're being snatched up quickly. They are a very rare thing to see on this side of the country (right coast). I wonder if that's because they're on the lifts in the repair department :P

    RE: Running errands in a brand new diesel? Makes no sense. Keep the Ranger or buy a Ford Focus. Cheaper in the long run.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,158
    There is no car with a 4 cylinder gas engine I would consider. I hate driving up our long Interstate grade with the engine screaming to keep up with the 75 MPH traffic. I love taking drives in the country on back winding roads. That is where diesel engines really shine. That low end torque makes driving a pleasure. You have to experience it to understand. The only reason I am considering getting rid of the Ranger is the V6 is so under powered. I would have traded it on a new V6 Ranger if the CARS allowed it.

    The reliability failures of the VW does not ring true to me. I owned a VW Passat Wagon TDI for over a year and the only warranty work was a broken gas cover. That was done by a gas station attendant in Oregon the day I bought it. And the San Diego VW dealer replaced it under warranty. In 13 months the only other trips to the dealer was for oil change. That was less on the TDI than for my Toyota. I really liked driving that Passat. If it had a couple more inches of ground clearance I would have kept it. Of course it helped that I made $3000 over what I paid the year before selling it. I could have sold a dozen of them at that price.

    I am glad you like your Prius. It is probably ok for in town driving. Just not what I would enjoy. And the Focus even less. If you ever get a chance to drive a Golf TDI out in the country on a winding road, you will understand what I am saying. Cars should be more than just an appliance. Sadly that is about all I see on the dealers lots anymore.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    I wonder if that's because they're on the lifts in the repair department :P

    First service is at 10,000 miles and maintenance is free for 3/36.

    TDI vs. Prius
    quote- While the hybrid won the fuel efficiency stakes, the diesel was the drivers' favorite for its abundant torque and sportier handling. The Prius has never been remotely sporty, whereas the Jetta is known as a sort of junior BMW 3-Series.

    The Jetta zipped up twisty hills that the Prius's Hybrid Synergy Drive struggled with, while drivers behind the Prius seethed as its pilot struggled to keep her car out of "Power Mode," which sucks more fuel.

    So there you have it: Sometimes higher fuel economy comes at the expense of driving quality-end quote

    I prefer a "drivers favorite" TDI and will let someone else drive the "never been remotely sporty" Prius.

    Golf TDI is evern more fun to drive than the Jetta. Very excited for it to arrive.
This discussion has been closed.