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Toyota Prius vs VW Golf TDI

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  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,631
    So for example if hybrids are not selling why on earth would one (Toyota for example) up the production of... hybrids??????

    They are selling, for the Prius at over 100,000 YTD. They are not selling as briskly as they did when gas was over $4 a gallon. How "hot" were diesels when diesel fuel was selling for a considerable premium over gas? Not very.

    Let's apply this reasoning to the Golf TDI. If the TDI is not selling, why would VW want to up the production of them, e.g. produce them here (which is what gagrice was wondering about)?

    The Golf TDI has been described by some here as a "niche" car, to explain its low sales volume and the fact that VW apparently has no interest in shipping more here or making some here. The same could be said for the Prius. It is a four-door hatchback (not the most popular car style), it has a distinctive shape (which I bet you'll agree is not to everyone's taste), and it comes at a price premium compared to other compact/midsized cars. Those factors don't drive big sales numbers, in this recession. But when the price of gas goes up, the value equation changes and the Prius becomes more popular.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,495
    "They are selling, for the Prius at over 100,000 YTD."

    I think most of us heard you the first time. For the record, I hear you the second time....

    Diesels were not "hot" simply because the policy has not been for diesel (anti). They actually went through a banning.

    So to gasser owning folks, that is the system signalling its ... distemper. What do you think that would do to Prius sales , if it went through such a ban?

    This is in marked contrast to hybrid cheer leading. For all the hybrid cheer leading and special dispensations, you would think the hybrid populations (sales) would be much higher than the diesels. Where as diesel passenger cars have received banning, to limited to be sold (in the US) as niche vehicles, such as diesel light (heavy) trucks.

    I have read in passing the diesel population is @ 3% and the hybrid population is @ 2%. I will however grant you the (anti) diesel policies have been wildly successful in keeping the passenger diesel population down.

    ..."The Golf TDI has been described by some here as a "niche" car, to explain its low sales volume and the fact that VW apparently has no interest in shipping more here or making some here."...

    Evidently despite the internet, you either did not read, ignored or comprehend my post on the effect of VW making/assembling diesels in Chattanooga, TN.

    This is interesting in light of the fact that Prius is still made in two locations in Japan and one in China link title aka not North America. Toyota acknowledges ( I have read several articles in passing so you can google it yourself) that outside of Japan itself the US is one of the bigger markets for its (Prius) hybrid product. Golfs are made in Wolfsburg, Germany. So if VW can sell all it makes on the world market, and at more of a profit.... ??? (anyone can connect the dots here?)

    The (indefinite) suspension of the MISS plant might indicate the same might not be true for the world market for (Prius) hybrids. This would be troubling in that the US is one of the bigger markets.

    Secondarily, Toyota has closed a US (Fremont CA) plant making: the Corolla (second best economy car) , Tacoma, Pontiac Vibe (1/2 GM Pontiac Vibe uses a Toyota drive train) .

    So if I understand correctly because they have more "foreign" content that.... not, both Prius/Golf are subjected to the 25% tariffs.

    Jetta TDI being a defacto "American" car (NAFTA treaties) are not subjected to the 25% tariffs. Jetta's are assembled in North America (Mexico) ( our 51 state ;) )

    I would defer to an expert's explanations on the issue.

    Despite all the bru ha ha about massive increases in Prius sales (or so some would try to lead folks to believe) why the almost indefinite suspension of the Prius plant in Miss? This is also problematic because US built Prius would NOT be subject to the 25% tarriffs over Toyota's costs. Obviously Toyota could keep the prices the same and pocket the profits (25% over its cost of manufacture) or drop the price massively to ever (projection on my part) increased volumes of Prius sales!!!!!!!

    Indeed for VW, they can modulate the US currency devaluations better and build profits that way AND not "qualify" for the US over seas made vehicle 25% tariffs for ALL domestic sales of its (TN) US build products. They can manufacture solely for the US markets or help in the US balance of trade by exporting VW (American made) diesels and gassers, etc. !!!
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,495
    There are two upshots for me

    1. A good reason to buy a Prius for it is still made in Japan
    2. Golf (GTD) engineered and (STILL) made in Germany
    2. hot rod turbo diesel :shades:
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,631
    Evidently despite the internet, you either did not read, ignored or comprehend my post on the effect of VW making/assembling diesels in Chattanooga, TN.

    Well, I do know you haven't been reading my posts because I've mentioned that factory at least twice. But from what I've read, it won't be producing Golfs, just the new mid-sized sedan. Where did you see it will produce Golfs?

    As for Toyota closing its NUMMI plant after GM pulled out of the partnership... what does that have to do with the Prius vs.Golf? Toyota plans to start production of the Prius in Mississippi about the same time the new VW plant opens in TN.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,495
    ..."Where did you see it will produce Golfs? "...

    Let's see, I tell you Golf's are made in Wolfsburg Germany and have no economic reason to be made in TN and out of left field, you are asking where I see Golf's will be made in TN??? Ah,... no !!??

    ..."As for Toyota closing its NUMMI plant after GM pulled out of the partnership... what does that have to do with the Prius vs.Golf? Toyota plans to start production of the Prius in Mississippi about the same time the new VW plant opens in TN."...

    First off it is cutting off its productive capacity by app min 400,000 units (per year). and that is only with 2 shifts. If they figured 3 shifts.......... more like 600,000 units.. Once they close the plant, it will be literally a TOTAL uphill battle to put another plant (any) in the area EVEN in the same LOCATION !!! Less PC, it will be IMPOSSIBLE !!!!

    They are also cutting the capacity for building the Tundra. This is by it self, HUGE !!! I had read to the figure 150,000 units. Tell me the latest figures, if I read an old article.

    Toyota will be lucky not to experience ANOTHER massive $ loss. It will in effect pull off a miracle to not lose as much Prius sales. (-30% by Bloomberg news)

    Now tell me why it makes sense to you that TO MO CO will open its already 90% built Miss plant to up its Prius capacity??????? It is already OVER CAPACITY @ its 2 Japan and 1 China locations.

    Peripherally that even might be a good question , in the context that the Golf has never been a real competitor of the Prius and vice versa. Indeed as I have said in a prior post, power, mpg figures, etc. put the TDI more in competition with the Camry hybrid and Camry.

    In my own selection process for a purposeful daily commute in mind, the Prius was more in competition with the Corolla/Civic . After giving all of them long test drives 24 hr each, I chose the Civic. I also detailed how the Civic has proved to be app 23.6% cheaper than the Prius (per mile driven depreciation and fuel) . When I had to select with a purposeful daily commute with the additional road car duties , the VW TDI was selected. Again the VW TDI is app 23.5% cheaper than the Prius.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,690
    As for Toyota closing its NUMMI plant after GM pulled out of the partnership... what does that have to do with the Prius vs.Golf?

    More than once Ahnold begged Toyota to build the Prius in CA the largest buyer of the model in the USA. The new Tupelo plant will not likely see the Prius.

    Jun 13th 2009 at 2:01PM

    Steve St. Angelo, senior vice president of Toyota Motor Engineering & Manufacturing North America Inc. said:

    We're very committed to that plant. But we're looking at our whole portfolio and asking which products it makes sense to build or not build in North America.

    In other words, it's becoming increasingly unlikely that the new 2010 Prius will be built in the U.S. any time soon. Construction of the plant was halted after the exterior shell was completed back in December of 2008 and work won't begin again until Toyota has a solid plan in place on how best to utilize the facility. For what it's worth, Toyota officials tell our friends at Prius Chat that there's no truth to rumors that the plant's workers have been relocated and that the Prius will indeed be the first vehicle to roll down the assembly line in Tupelo.


    Mississippi is still wasting money and Toyota is on hold.

    By Associated Press

    7:59 AM CDT, August 25, 2009
    BLUE SPRINGS, Miss. (AP) — Infrastructure projects are continuing nearly on schedule around Toyota's Mississippi plant, but the manufacturing facility is still on hold.

    Mississippi Department of Transportation officials activated the traffic light on a new frontage road Monday for Toyota Motor Manufacturing Mississippi.

    The three-mile road connects Mississippi Highway 9 near the Sherman exit off U.S. Highway 78.

    Bill Jamieson, an MDOT engineer, said construction was completed a few days after the Aug. 12 deadline.

    It's the most recent update in a $43 million road project that started after Toyota announced in February 2007 it would build a facility near Blue Springs.

    Toyota in December put the plant on hold indefinitely because of the weak economy.


    Meanwhile VW is full blast on their new TN plant.

    Volkswagen
    is opening a plant in Chattanooga Tennessee in early 2011. This will be VW’s first vehicle production unit in the US. The Supervisory Board of Volkswagen AG, Germany have agreed to the establishment and approved an investment of up to 620 million Euros the equivalent of $1 billion USD.

    The first car to roll off the line will be a vehicle designed and built specifically for the U.S. market. In the medium term, Volkswagen will aim for some 2,000 employees working directly for the company, in addition to large numbers of outside jobs, for example, in supply and logistics. According to Prof. Martin Winterkorn, CEO of Volkswagen AG, the growth strategy for VW will be 800,000 cars a year by 2018 in the ‘United States’, giving rise to the thought that this may not be VW’s only American plant.

    The company’s last US plant closed 20 years ago. The company’s current strategy is to sell 800,000 cars in the US by 2018. Audi is also considering opening its own plant in the United States.
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla MarylandPosts: 698
    Volkswagen doesn't currently sell a Golf TDI in the US.

    (They will start up the sales when the Mk. 6 Golf comes to the states for the 2010 model year, though.)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,631
    Yep, I think most of us in here know that. Thanks for the reminder.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,631
    Let's see, I tell you Golf's are made in Wolfsburg Germany and have no economic reason to be made in TN and out of left field, you are asking where I see Golf's will be made in TN??? Ah,... no !!??

    Call me crazy, but I was just thinking that, this being a Golf vs. Prius discussion and all, that your comments about the TN plant might have something to do with the Golf. Obviously they don't.

    Nor do your comment about the Tundra, putting another plant in the Fremont, CA, area, and Toyota's potential for financial losses.

    But tell me... why is it OK with you for VW to decide not build Golfs in its TN plant to meet the strong demand (gagrice keeps reminding us that they are selling so fast there's none to be found in his area), when it's a big problem for you that Toyota has decided to delay completion of its Tupelo plant until 2011--which btw is the same time the VW plant in TN is scheduled to start making cars (but not Golfs)? You say VW has "no economic reason" to build Golfs in TN. Don't you suppose the reason Toyota is delaying building Priuses in Tupelo is because they have no economic reason to do it earlier?

    This incredible bias in favor of VW and against Toyota is so blatant, it's actually funny.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,495
    Whether you realize it or not you are coming closer to realizing what I am trying to say. You either do not see it yet or are still in denial.

    Again you are the one claiming the Prius sales are good at a quoted MINUS-21% !!??? It is not I. I am also saying that TO MO CO is greatly scaling back its Prius capacity (by not loading its MS plant) as well as many other product lines with less mpg. Indeed if it LOADED its MS plant it would need to manufacture a minimum of 80% of the plants capacity to B/E. So using 400,000 units (of the closing NUMMI plant) 80% of that would be 320,000 units. Now you were saying Prius sales is at the lofty MY sales of 100,000 units? They decided to close the Toyota/GM Numm plant because it was operating at 65%.Right now without the GM portion it is operating at 50% and BLEEDING $'s hand over fist. And you think 25% capacity is...viable and the slam dunk indicator I am BIASED !!??? :confuse:

    Again Golf's are not direct competitor's of Prius's. In case you did not get it , the VW TN plant at full capacity will be 800,000 units, while TOMOCO has CUT @ least 500,000 units !!? If this is confusing, it is another reason why I left off the expansion of the VW Mexico plant, which among other things makes the Jetta.

    So is it bias? Ah no !!! Funny? When you start to see the TOMOCO ripple effects, it is close to devasting and sad :lemon:

    But CA's business policies are so toxic, that even world class manufacturing corporations like TOMOCO can't afford to do business here !!??
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,690
    I think you are trying to play verbal games which is fine. But I don't see any data that says Toyota will build anything in their Tupelo plant in 2011. All I see is it is on hold.

    June 10, 2009
    Toyota broke ground on the $1.3 billion Tupelo plant in 2006 to produce Highlander crossovers. Last summer the automaker delayed the project and then later changed plans to produce the Prius there instead. But last December, Toyota halted the project indefinitely, opting to finish construction of the building shell and wait for market conditions to improve.


    Why should it make any difference where the Golf is built? VW has much bigger plans for the US market than just the Golf. Hopefully all models will be offered with diesel engines.

    If Toyota was truly optimistic about the Prius sales they should have made room in one of their many plants that are running far below capacity. Such as San Antonio. Their 250k Tundra sales will be lucky to hit 50% of projection. That leaves a lot of room to build a lot more Prius. I think they cut the Prius too close to make a profit building them in the USA. Much the same as the D3's failure to be competitive with small cars built here. VW is wise to build the bigger stuff here and bring the small ones from Mexico.
  • Got the options and a trade in for about 29700.
    I just left a credit card deposit.
    It was a Prius 111 and i was given a sticker which showed MSRP base 25800 and the nav pkg with a few mats etc type accessories 2289

    Edmunds shows base as 23500.

    Dont sticker prices have to reflect the accurate Toyota base price?
    Then added my 95 honda for allegedly a 1000 dollars tradein.
    And they 'let me have it for 29000,

    I didnt sign any buyer's agreement yet though as it was to be done Monday. If it was a ripoff can i still back out?

    thanks
    W
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,690
    I would email all the dealers for a direct quote. Some dealers are computer literate others are not. That seems pretty high for a model 3 Prius. They are flying high right now with the sales boom they had with C4C. You may want to wait until they get hungry around November. For me anything over invoice is a rip-off. I would wait till the market is in favor of the buyers again.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,631
    Thank you. Thank you very much. I enjoyed that a lot. Great way to end the day.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,631
    According to Japan’s Nikkei, Toyota has put its U.S. Prius production plans on hold. The most popular hybrid in the world was slated to begin production in Mississippi in 2010, but those plans have now been pushed back to 2011 at the earliest.

    http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-delays-us-prius-production-plans.html

    Why should it make any difference where the Golf is built?

    It doesn't in general. The only thing about where the Golf is built that is relevant is, the level of quality of the plant. Otherwise, who cares except people who have a thing about buying a car not "made in the USA". Since only one of my cars was, and that's a Mazda, it doesn't matter to me. But it seemed there was a LOT of emphasis placed by some folks here on Priuses not made in the USA, Corolla factories closing, etc.

    If Toyota was truly optimistic about the Prius sales they should have made room in one of their many plants that are running far below capacity.

    The way I see it, if Toyota were truly optimistic about Prius sales, they would built a new plant for them. Which was the plan, before the auto market collapsed late last year. So they now have a partially-completed plant in MS that can still build Priuses when sales support it.

    Anyway, since it doesn't make any difference where the Golf is built, it doesn't make any difference where the Prius is built, does it now?
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,690
    Anyway, since it doesn't make any difference where the Golf is built, it doesn't make any difference where the Prius is built, does it now?

    Not to me it doesn't. I am thinking the Golf will be built in the EU for a while anyway. My point has always been that the Prius cannot be built in the USA due to pollution in manufacturing certain components. Many Prius drivers only care about tailpipe emissions. That is a small part of an automobiles pollution on the planet. Just because the batteries and motors are built in a third world country does not release them from guilt in my mind. The NoX, SoX and PM produced by the Prius in MFG far exceeds the non hybrid counterpart according to Toyota. The emissions only equals out at near end of life of the vehicles. On Particulate Matter the Golf will never be as polluting as the Prius.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,495
    .."Thank you. Thank you very much. I enjoyed that a lot. Great way to end the day. "...

    I am no automotive pundit, but a consumer like you and most other interested car "nuts". ;)

    If I were to try to do a "lessons" learned on the Prius hybrid /Golf TDI comparo, it would be to quantify and qualify what a buyer's needs/wants/desires are.

    The good news is that you can compare almost dissimilar products for a host of reasons. The bad news is you can compare almost dissimilar products for a host of reasons. The easiest would be to do comparos on similar products. I would also submit the oems do not make that an easy job most times.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,631
    My point has always been that the Prius cannot be built in the USA due to pollution in manufacturing certain components.

    Then that was a really stupid thing Toyota did, planning and even starting that plant in Tupelo, MS, USA to build Priuses, wasn't it? To construct a factory to build cars that cannot be built there--that seems really strange, don't you think?

    As for environmental impact, here's some data from the EPA. Feel free to provide your own data from an independent source comparing the 2010 Prius and 2010 Golf TDI:

    Stat: Prius / Golf

    Fuel Economy Combined: 50 / 34
    Real-world Average FE: 51.7 / NA
    Annual fuel cost: $774 / $1160
    Annual petroleum consumption: 6.9 barrels / 11.9 barrels
    Annual CO2 (tons): 3.7 / 6.2
    EPA size class: midsized / compact

    These figures are based on the defaults on www.fueleconomy.gov. It's possible to adjust things like fuel costs and miles driven to get numbers that reflect individual cases.

    Do you have figures for particulate emissions for the 2010 Prius and 2010 Golf TDI? Also, do you happen to have a link to the report that shows the manufacture of the Prius generates more NoX, SoX, and PM far exceeds that of the Golf TDI?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,631
    The easiest would be to do comparos on similar products.

    Here we are comparing the Prius to the Golf TDI. Two hatchbacks with high fuel economy and roughly the same starting price. The Golf is a little shorter than the Prius, hence has less cargo space, but interior volume is pretty close. Very different powertrains of course. But if the cars were too similar, any kind of comparison would be pretty boring, wouldn't it?
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,690
    Then that was a really stupid thing Toyota did, planning and even starting that plant in Tupelo, MS, USA to build Priuses, wasn't it?

    Assembling parts made in third world hell holes is not the same as manufacturing a complete vehicle. Last I read the F150 is the highest American content vehicle at 85%. I am sure you are aware that the Camry hybrids are only assembled here. The San Antonio Tundra plant is proof Toyota makes mistakes in their planning. So the answer to your quip is, Yes Toyota does Stupid things. In this case it is an empty shell that has not created the jobs Toyota promised the people of Tupelo. And the tax payers in that state are stuck with big promises and no revenue.

    You will get to poke me back if VW does not live up to their promises in TN.
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