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Toyota Prius vs VW Golf TDI

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  • bwilson4webbwilson4web Posts: 80
    edited February 2010
    Well let's start with some facts and data along with with sources:

    "- legroom, you don't show there's more legroom than TDI"

    The specific 'legroom' is rear seat legroom, which you accidently left off:

    "Legroom, rear (in.) 35.4" - Edmunds Insight review of 2009 Jetta TDI
    "Rear Leg Room: 36 in." - Edmunds review Prius 2010

    "- low emissions, you don't show that it's lower than TDI"

    Actually the California Air Resources Board did in their executive report of both the Jetta TDI and 2010 Prius:

    A-014-0657 - Toyota 2010 Prius executive order
    A-007-0271 - Volkswagen Jetta, Jetta Sportwagen diesel, Golf executive order

    "- quiet operation, you don't show that it's quieter than TDI"

    Well there is this Volkwaggen commercial:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXK63kvUi6U

    The title is "Meet the Volkswagens - Jetta TDI Meets Prius". Weird that VW advertises the noise of a Jetta TDI but of course they could be lying.

    "- solar panels in roof to power the AC? Prius does not have such a thing. "

    Actually it has two features:

    1) solar power, cabin air exhaust - an option, it vents the cabin heat on sunny summer days.

    2) remote A/C operation - an option, pressing a remote keyfob turns on the air conditioner to reduce cabin heat as we walk to the car.

    Thank you for posting but the facts and data are different.

    Bob Wilson
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,028
    Even with all your +++ for the Prius it is still a noisy, numb uncomfortable vehicle to drive. Being fun at a smelly gas pump does not count for much in my book. And yes gas is stinkier than diesel. And more carcinogenic. That is why they have the sealed pump handles for gas and not for diesel.

    I am not sure I would like the Golf TDI. I know from experience I would not have a Prius. Did I mention one of the worst cars on the road for blind spots. Not good in a commuter car with people trying to sneak around the Prius driver that is holding up traffic, hypermiling.
  • Ahem, "it is still a noisy" doesn't match the Volkswagen commercial "Meet the Volkswagens - Jetta TDI Meets Prius." As VW claimed, Jetta TDIs are noisy compared to the Prius.

    It really comes down to a question of requirements. The TDI comes up short by metrics important to our buying budget:

    urban mileage
    highway mileage
    quiet operation
    interior space

    I understand "fun car." However, my concept of a fun car is fully electric and spelled TESLA!

    Bob Wilson
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,733
    How much experience do you have behind the wheel of a 2010 Prius? Or is your opinion of the 2010 Prius based on second-hand info or experience with earlier designs?

    I got to check out the 2010 Prius when I stopped by my local dealer yesterday to see how my buddy, the Master Sales Rep there, was doing. He's an engineer by training and experience so I always enjoy talking with him, as he knows how cars work including hybrids. I confirmed the rear seat of the 2010 Prius is indeed very comfortable for adults, at least adults of my height (5'10"), with gobs of legroom--much moreso than my departed 2007 Rabbit. (Maybe VW increased rear leg room a lot in the 2010 Golf?) I didn't go for a drive because I came in right before closing and all the base models, which is what I would get were I to buy a Prius, were in a satellite lot.

    Maybe we could stick with discussion of the CARS, and not on the driving habits of individuals? I am sure there are rude drivers to be found no matter what model of car they happen to drive, and hypermiling behavior is not unique to Prius drivers.

    As for carcinogenic effects of fuel, that is off-topic also, but at least get your facts straight, e.g.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/08/29/health/main520195.shtml

    http://www.osha.gov/dts/chemicalsampling/data/CH_234655.html
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,028
    My experience was with a 2009 Prius as a passenger. He has stock tires and you feel and hear every crack and crevice in the sub standard California streets. The engine noise comes about when it kicks in. I was the one that recommended the Prius. So I did not make any negative comments. He seems to like it and that is all that counts. I was always happy to get back in my Lexus or Sequoia. End of story.

    Your two articles do not compare Unleaded gas to diesel. They make vague evaluations with little substantiating evidence. Fact is Unleaded is much more dangerous than diesel.
    Unleaded Gas
    DANGER!
    Extremely Flammable liquid and vapor
    Harmful if swallowed
    Skin Irritant
    May cause eye and respiratory irritation
    Cancer Hazard – Contains material which can
    cause cancer


    The Prius is stuck with Unleaded Regular. Many people run 100% biodiesel in their VW TDI vehicles. Making them more environmentally safe. Unleaded stinks and burns my eyes. I am thankful CA has forced gas stations to put safety nozzles on gas pumps. Nasty stuff.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,733
    edited February 2010
    So you have no experience at all with the redesigned 2010 Prius? Have you even sat in one? Maybe check it out at your local auto show.

    Did you read the OSHA information I posted, which classifies diesel fuel as a carcinogen? That report did not look like a "vague evaluation" to me. It looked pretty specific. There were many other references I did not post--I could if you insist, or you could easily look them up yourself and we can move on talking about the cars.

    FWIW, diesel fumes stink and burn my eyes.

    Many people run 100% biodiesel in their VW TDI vehicles.

    How many (especially for the 2010 TDI) run on 100% biodiesel, and where is the data from? I have read that VW states that only up to B5 (5% biodiesel) should be used in the 2010 TDI.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,028
    Yes I sat in a 2010 Prius. Same cheap seats. Not at all comfortable.

    The EPA report concludes that uncertainties remain about long-term health effects of exposure to diesel exhausts. It said, however, that studies involving both tests on animals and occupational exposure suggest strong evidence of a cancer risk to humans.

    We know gas fumes are carcinogenic. Not just suspected as in Marine Diesel.

    From OSHA link:
    International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) carcinogenic classification: Group 2B, Possibly carcinogenic to humans (Marine diesel fuel) or Group 3, Not classifiable as to carcinogenicity to humans [Distillate (light) diesel fuels].
    That would be number one and two diesel used on the highways.

    There is entirely too much misinformation spread concerning the health risks of diesel. You don't like the smell of diesel. I don't like the smell of unleaded gas. The truth is you will die sooner from smelling gasoline than diesel.

    Which has nothing to do with why I like diesel engines over a bunch of overly complex hybrids. Drivability is the reason. If you have not tried it you cannot possibly understand. You keep questioning my experience with the Prius. When was the last time you drove a VW TDI. Especially with the new DSG transmission.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,733
    edited February 2010
    I have to question whether you actually sat in a 2010 Prius. The seats have been redesigned. They are not the same as 2004-9, especially in trims with the power lumbar support. For 2010 there's also a driver's height adjustment, which for me at least makes a huge difference in driving position.

    I have not driven a TDI. But I have also not said it's an awful car, without driving it first. I never complained about the ride and handling for example, as I don't have direct experience in those areas. In fact, I think it looks on paper like a very good car. Just not one that meets my needs and driving patterns, based on what I know about it. I don't know why it is that when discussing two cars, one must be hated in order for the other to be liked. :sick:

    As for diesel's impact on health... from what I see in the OSHA report, I would not want to be anywhere close to it. It's no elixir of health, that is for sure.

    Potential symptoms: Irritation of eyes, skin, respiratory tract; dizziness, headache, nausea; chemical pneumonitis (from aspiration of liquid); dry, red skin; irritant contact dermatitis; eye redness, pain.

    Health Effects: Irritation-Eyes---Mild (HE-16); Kidney damage (HE3), Potential lung damage (HE-10); Suspected carcinogen (Marine diesel fuel) (HE2)

    Affected organs: Eyes, skin, kidneys

    Notes:

    1. OSHA does not have a PEL for diesel fuel, but it is designated as an OSHA Select Carcinogen.
    2. Explosive vapor/air mixtures of diesel fuel no. 2 may be formed at temperatures above 52°C.
    3. Some cases of kidney damage from exposure to diesel fuel have been reported.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,028
    edited February 2010
    So you have not driven any VW TDI and I have not ridden in or driven a 2010 Prius. I cannot even test drive a 2010 Prius because they are grounded due to faulty brakes. You don't like diesel which is fine with me. I don't like gas engines for several reasons. When associated with an overly complex hybrid system they are even less appealing to me. Do I hate them. No I have recommended them to friends that have bought them.

    I am not sure why we are having this debate if you are not willing to test drive a VW TDI. And there is no possible way that Toyota has improved the Prius enough in 2010 to interest me. So that leaves us at an impasse. I got a feeling you will not buy a Prius and I will probably not buy a Golf TDI. For one thing it is not really what I want in a new vehicle.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,733
    edited February 2010
    There's a fix for the 2010 Prius brake software, so don't let that stop you from a test drive.

    I am not going to test drive a car that I have little chance of buying. I don't have the time, and I don't want to waste time of the VW salesperson. If my local dealer ever offered an open house to test drive the new Golf, I might take advantage of that. Sometimes dealers do that, e.g. when the Fit and 2008 Accord came out, my local Honda dealer had open houses, and my local Hyundai dealer is having an open house for the 2011 Sonata. Great ways to check out a car even if you're not serious about buying one in the foreseeable future.

    As for my buying/leasing a Prius, I think there is actually a decent chance of that happening in the next 2-3 years, or maybe sooner. My local dealer is offering a really good lease with no money down on the Prius now. (That's why I stopped in to talk to my sales rep buddy the other day.) I have a feeling that kind of deal will be around awhile as Toyota rebuilds its reputation. The lease payment plus gas savings would be about the same money per month as my Sonata... and I could sell that and pocket some cash. If that doesn't work, I will be looking at the Prius when the warranty runs out on the Sonata. But who knows what else will be out there in 2-3 years? The Prius will be pretty much the same then (as will the TDI), but some new, interesting models are due out in that timeframe.

    Kind of funny, though, that you are so passionate about two cars that you have no intention of owning. :)
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,028
    Kind of funny, though, that you are so passionate about two cars that you have no intention of owning

    I like the VW TDI with DSG. If they offer it in the Tiguan or Amarok it will be very tempting. I don't like low slung cars too hard on my back getting out. That is what I hate about the Lexus. Trucks and SUVs are just more comfortable getting in and out of. I did sit in the GTI while at the VW dealer and really liked the seats. Very Comfy. So maybe the Golf TDI will have the same ones. They are up a bit higher than the Jetta which is too low for my liking. I seriously doubt that I will buy another gas vehicle in this life time. I was not going to when I bought the Sequoia. Nothing with diesel was to my liking and I had just sold my 05 GMC. I regret buying it. Though it is not a bad vehicle just a gutless gas hog. Not enough torque to carry the rig up the highway I drive in high gear. I do not like to hear an engine screaming to keep up with traffic. A vehicle that will not pull the Interstate hills in high gear at 70+ MPH is not something I want. Our Passat TDI would do it and our Mercedes Sprinter would do it. The LS400 will not, same as the Sequoia. NO TORQUE, NO WANT.

    My neighbor has a 99 VW Beetle TDI with 150K and has never had any major work done. He does all his own service. His wife does not like to drive their Sienna. She loves that Beetle.
  • Funny you should mention:

    "A vehicle that will not pull the Interstate hills in high gear at 70+ MPH is not something I want."

    The 1.8L Prius climbs a +8% grade very nicely:
    http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/pri_2010_810.jpg

    The 2010 Prius works a little better with 89 octane if hill climbing at +80 mph is going to be part of regular driving.

    Bob Wilson
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,028
    I have heard the scream of the little Prius engine on just a slight slope. No Thanks. You can have it. If it has to go above 2000 RPM at 70 MPH up hill it has too little torque.
  • eliaselias Posts: 1,930
    from my viewpoint VWs are super reliable, but the JD-powers/etc data used for reliability shows that other/non-euro brands have the edge. So that part's old hat.

    Bob W thanks for posting actually detailed comparisons, however slanted towards the darling Prius. Maybe i'll compare highway dB/etc figures for the Prius. Also it seems like it's worth a testdrive/comparison after another 100k on my current TDI.

    Seems like non of us posters are shopping for new cars, so we're all talk and no action - not about to spend $ on any new car!

    It sure would be interesting to read comments from someone who had recently cross-shopped any TDI vs a Prius !
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,733
    You heard the old Prius engine from the Echo, right? You haven't driven the larger and more powerful 2010 Prius on a slope, have you?
  • Funny you should mention:

    "You heard the old Prius engine from the Echo, right? You haven't driven the larger and more powerful 2010 Prius on a slope, have you? "

    We sold our 1.5L 2001 Echo to make room for our 1.8L 2010 Prius. However, I still drive our 1.5L 2003 Prius and I have climb data for both Prius:

    http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/pri_hill_climb.JPG
    http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/pri_2010_810.jpg

    Notice the 2010 Prius weights more yet uses less fuel at the same speeds up until 65 mph. Above 65 mph, the 2003 Prius begins drawing battery power, a false economy because the battery power has to be replaced after the climb.

    Bob Wilson
  • You posted, "Bob W thanks for posting actually detailed comparisons, . . ."

    Thanks are really due to the TDI advocates who post in this Prius area tread. The TDI postings give the leads, the reasons, for posting empirical Prius data. Now when it comes to "likes," I'm good with folks having a personal preference. For example, I like grits but understand some folks prefer hash browns.

    So as long as TDI advocate posts something for which we have empirical Prius data, well it is only fair to share the facts and data. After all, ignorance can be cured.

    Bob Wilson
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,798
    Many of the toxicities associated with diesel fuel are also found with exposure to gasoline. What is worse is that since gasoline has a lower vapor pressure, the toxic effects occur sooner and at lower temps.

    Explosive mixtures of gasoline and air occur at temperatures far below 52 degrees C.

    Gasoline goes through skin more easily than diesel fuel does.

    If you were to read the OSHA report for gasoline, it is just as bad if not worse than diesel.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,733
    edited February 2010
    I don't disagree that gasoline is a hazardous and unhealthy substance. But I don't think diesel fuel is very healthy either. And I don't see that it is pertinent to the discussion of these two cars, since both forms of fuel will exist even if these two vehicles did not exist.
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,798
    On I-70 near Hagerstown there is a place called South Mountain. On either side of the crest there is a long steep climb greater than 8%.

    I have seen multiple Prius with two passengers unable to maintain 60 MPH going up either side of this grade.

    I drive a Jeep Liberty Limited CRD (diesel) and with four passengers plus 300 pounds of cargo have climbed this pass at 60 MPH without a problem or even downshifting and the tach never exceeding 1750 RPM.
  • eliaselias Posts: 1,930
    edited February 2010
    discussion of gas vs diesel seems most appropriate in this forum.

    also, attention K-Mart shoppers:
    New Prius prices have dropped $1000 or $1500 in the last few weeks.
    Meanwhile, TDI prices are holding constant.

    Maybe it's just "supply vs demand" which accounts for the Prius Price Plummet.
    Or maybe the VW TDIs are actually better *vehicles* (in-motion) while the Priuses are better while parked (used as generators or to save fuel in stop n go city traffic.)
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,798
    Toyota prices in general will start falling even further. Toyota is a company run by liars and everything that Toyota promised is not true.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,733
    First, how do you know the Priuses were unable to maintain the grade? Sometimes folks slow down on grades for fuel economy reasons.

    Second, these were all 2010 Priuses with the 1.8L engine, right?

    Third, what does the performance of your Jeep have to do with this discussion of the 2010 Golf TDI and Prius?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,733
    In case you haven't noticed, Toyota is going through some difficult times right now, which obviously affects the pricing of their cars.

    But it does put the Prius at an even bigger price advantage wrt the TDI, for people looking to buy right now.
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,798
    My Jeep is diesel powered so I think it fits.

    The Pruis that I saw were not 2010 but 2008 and 2008 models.
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,798
    Had Toyota not lived on their reputation of building good cars, this forum would not even be here. One can live on past reputation only so long, then when you lie to bury issues, how else do keep selling cars, namely by trying to give them away to a public who does not want them.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,733
    edited February 2010
    My Jeep is diesel powered so I think it fits.

    OK then. I know lots of diesel-powered vehicles that have all kinds of trouble making it up an 8% grade while maintaining speed. They have brand names of Kenworth, Freightliner, Volvo etc. I guess that makes the Prius superior to the Golf TDI in climbing grades--especially with the more powerful 1.8L engine for 2010? :P
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,733
    I suppose then that VW is "giving away" some of their models (Passats, Routans etc.) because they are such liars?

    Can we stay on the topic please?
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,028
    Nice try at deflecting. Until you have driven a VW TDI you are no more qualified to assess their drivability than I am with a 2010 Prius. However I feel have spent more seat time in a 2009 Prius than I wanted to makes me qualified to speak of the Prius and its weaknesses. If a 2010 Prius can pull an 8% grade without going over 2000 RPM I will withdraw my complaint. Not sure when they will have them fixed so they can be test driven.
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,798
    Hmm. Let us hook up the equivalent weight to the 2010 Prius and then see what happens. But then again, I do not know anyone who commutes in a Kenworth, Freightliner or Volvo truck.

    So Toyota gave the gas engine 22 more HP and 23 more lb-ft of torque. They raped the electric side dropping torque by 142 lb-ft to 153 lb-ft versus 295 lb-ft for the 2007 - 2009. I do not think that the larger gas engine will help.

    http://www.toyota.com/prius-hybrid/specs.html
This discussion has been closed.