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Toyota Prius vs VW Golf TDI

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Comments

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    Read my post again. I'm not saying anything about the drivability of the TDI. I am trying to keep the discussion on topic, which is a discussion of the 2010 Prius and 2010 Golf TDI. So when folks talk about other cars, including earlier designs of the Prius or TDI, or even Jeeps, I don't see how it's relevant.

    The 2010 Prius has considerably more power and torque than previous generations, so I don't think it's fair to draw a conclusion on how the car takes a grade based on the earlier designs.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    Rather than conjecture about things like seat comfort and hill/mountain climbing and handling, here's a driving report from a 3rd party on the 2010 Prius.

    http://www.motorauthority.com/blog/1032647_first-drive-2010-toyota-prius
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,798
    The story did not mention the brakes. Must have used a grappling hook to stop the car.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    The grappling hook is not included in the package this driver reported on, so he had to use the usual way--brakes.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,020
    The brakes only fail at the worst time. On Icy or slick surfaces. Not likely to happen in Tucson. The reviewer had good things to say about the Prius. Just not that he would want one. I have recommended them. I would not want one.

    I do think a person can get a good deal while Toyota is down and out. Don't expect the resale to be good for at least 5 years after their debacle. Too bad it did not happen to VW, BMW or Audi. I might be buying a new vehicle.
  • I agree with this:

    "The Pruis that I saw were not 2010 but 2008 and 2008 models"

    The 1.5L Prius or at least our 2003 Prius, can maintain 65 mph up an 8% grade but anything over or an extra heavy load and it could dip into and run out of traction battery power. In these cases, I recommend using 55 mph or just follow any semi-trailer truck up the climb lane. It saves fuel and gets there with minimal stress on the car.

    Bob Wilson
  • You mentioned:

    "Let us hook up the equivalent weight to the 2010 Prius and then see what happens. But then again, I do not know anyone who commutes in a Kenworth, Freightliner or Volvo truck."

    The technical term is power-to-weight ratio and that pretty well defines hill climbing performance for any vehicle ... even a diesel.

    You also mentioned:

    "So Toyota gave the gas engine 22 more HP and 23 more lb-ft of torque. They [reduced] the electric side dropping torque by 142 lb-ft to 153 lb-ft versus 295 lb-ft for the 2007 - 2009. I do not think that the larger gas engine will help."

    Whole vehicle performance includes the transmission and the 2010 Prius (ZVW30) transmission has internally geared electric motors. This allows the motors to spin faster and via the gearing produce more torque to the drive train. The gearing also reduced the size of the motors and transmission volume and weight. Like the earlier 2004-09 Prius (NHW20), the absence of shift points means the engine and electric system can operate at peak efficiency points over a very wide range of power and speeds.

    Our family has both a 2003 (NHW11) and ZVW30 Prius. So whole vehicle performance is important for trip planning and efficient driving and my studies include:

    level, mph vs MPG - optimum cruise speeds
    climb, mph vs fuel - optimum climb speeds
    temp vs MPG - dealing with weather

    Now there have been a few snippets of honest, head-to-head vehicle performance. Edmunds did that with some of their reports and collecting sources:
    http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/edmunds_010.jpg
    http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/edmunds_020.jpg

    Bob Wilson
  • schongschong Posts: 7
    edited February 2010
    Amazing how the Prius could be so gosh-darned unreliable yet be one of the top 5 most reliable cars as of spring 2009 per CR's surveys. Also the "most satisfying" car to own per those same surveys. Also the best for used-car reliability.

    I notice how you left out the 2009 MY. Was that because there were only 137 complaints that year? You also left out the first two years of the Gen 2 Prius history; each of those years had fewer than 500 complaints.

    Should we talk about all the Golfs and Rabbits recalled by the NHTSA over the past few years? Looks like it was pretty much ALL of them, from 1999-2008.

    Update: Interesting (and telling?) comment from one of the NHTSA complaints for the 2010 Prius: "I DIDN'T THINK TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THIS BEFORE I BEGAN HEARING THE NEWS."


    Well, having a lot of problems reported for 4 out of 5 most recent Prius models should raise red flags if you're in love with Prius I am not disputing your facts about unreliability of VWs, I am talking about recent years and Prius' unreliability compared to Jetta TDIs. ALso, cars CAN be unreliable even if they were not recalled such as Prius models in 2006, 2007, and 2008 and that's GEN 2 vehicles of Prius. YIPPIE if first 2 years GEN 2 vehicles had less than 500 complaints./ Still does not indicate ANY poor reliablity in GEN 2 vehicles after 2005. According to NHTSA website on Prius complaints, the drivers are more likely to report ACTUAL PROBLEMS than " I DIDN'T THINK TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THIS BEFORE I BEGAN HEARING THE NEWS." Also, your claim that Prius is one of the most reliable cars according to a survey did not take into account who did participated and which years of Prius were involved. They probably did not survey many 2006, 2007 and 2008 Prius owners. That survey was at one point in time. The complaints on NHTSA explains drivers experiences THROUGHOUT their ownership of the vehicle, WELL past the reliability survey you claimed. By the way, 2009 Prius complaits are near 180 as of today and Prius 2010 is reaching 1500.
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,798
    Some years ago when Toyota brought out the Camry Hybrid a car magazine tested the Camry against an E-Class MB diesel. One of the tests consisted of a climb of Pike's Peak. The Camry did not do well as the traction battery pack died before the half way point. The MB also got better FE during the climb too. I remembered this story last night and for the life of me cannot remember the name of the magazine I saw it in.

    During open road driving, highway cruising, the diesel beat the Camry Hybrid but around town in stop and go, the Hybrid did better.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,020
    The famous RX400h vs the ML320 CDI still brings to mind the reality of which technology is best. They went cross country, over 3000 miles and the ML diesel got best overall mileage.

    From Green car congress:

    Average total consumption for the Mercedes over the 5,200-kilometer trip (3,232 miles) was 9.2 l/100km (25.6 mpg), while the Lexus came in at 10.2 l/100km (23 mpg).

    Hopefully a team can do the same with a Golf TDI and a Prius. After they get the brakes working on the Prius.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,020
    Where is the Prius in the Guiness record book?

    Days earlier, Mr. Taylor and his wife, Helen, had completed a 48-state drive averaging 67.9 miles a gallon: 9,505 miles in 19 days, filling up only 13 times and spending a total of $371.03 for diesel fuel. That beat the Guinness record of 58.8 miles a gallon they set a year ago on nearly the same route in an almost identical 2009 Jetta TDI.

    When the Prius makes that course in the same or shorter time using the same or less fuel they get to be in the book. Until then they are just another good mileage commuter car. Getting 70 MPG on the Prius readout over 20 miles is meaningless.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    They (CR) probably did not survey many 2006, 2007 and 2008 Prius owners. That survey was at one point in time.

    It's not a good idea to make statements about things you obviously know nothing about.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    Yes, in a test consisting of driving a car thousands of miles on interstate highways, I have no doubt a TDI will do very well. That is the ideal driving environment for a diesel.

    Change the test to something most drivers experience everyday, where there's a lot of in-town driving, and the diesel won't do nearly as well I suspect.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    So now it's an old comparison of the first Camry hybrid vs. an MB diesel.

    Again I ask, how does that relate at all to a comparison of the 2010 Prius to the 2010 Golf TDI?
  • You mentioned:

    "Getting 70 MPG on the Prius readout over 20 miles is meaningless. "

    Actually it is just one data point on a graph that plots "mph vs MPG," at 47 mph. But there is another collection of mileage records, the EPA web site, www.fueleconomy.gov:

    49.0 (70 vehicles) - 2010 Prius
    40.1 (27 vehicles) - 2009 Jetta TDI

    Does the Guiness Book of Records come with a free fuel card to cover the 22% difference the Prius saves? But on further reflection, it would be great if TDI advocates bought two:
    http://www.amazon.com/Guinness-World-Records-2010/dp/1904994504/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UT- F8&s=books&qid=1266371390&sr=8-2

    Indeed, buy as many as you can afford and show them off at the gas station.

    I prefer to spend as little of my Yankee Greenback dollars at the fuel pump as possible.

    Bob Wilson
  • schongschong Posts: 7
    edited February 2010
    It's not a good idea to make statements about things you obviously know nothing about.

    Well, it's also stupid to IGNORE the problems that are on record.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    Ignore? No. Treat them factually and rationally, yes.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,020
    Nice try but no cigar. Face it in all but stop and go driving on dry smooth streets the Prius is inferior to the Golf TDI. I cannot help you made a big mistake. Better luck next time. Drive a Golf TDI and you will swear at your Prius. That is my challenge. There is no comparison except at the pump. I small part of buying a car. And when you look at the over priced Prius you will really appreciate what you get with a Golf TDI for less money.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,020
    Is that a Prius owner in the picture looking longingly at a Jetta TDI?
    He likely wanted a car that was fun to drive and got a car that was great
    for cruising silently through the mall parking lot. He knew he screwed up
    when he drove it off the dealers lot and the engine rattled to life, and the
    jolt going out the drive jarred his teeth and kidneys. Too bad soo Sad, He
    is stuck with his bad decision till the brakes fail and he totals his Prius.

    PS
    Look at the owners reviews next to your too wide post. I would say there is
    a lot of buyers remorse with the Prius owners. And happy buyers that are
    lucky enough to find a Golf TDI for sale.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    At least the Prius HAS buyers. ;)

    Nearly 9 points on a 10 point scale doesn't seem like much buyer remorse out there, IMO. But since the TDI fans have established here it's OK to evaluate owner satisfaction using just one review, and also it's OK to use cars that are not the Prius or Golf, here's an owner's review from Edmunds.com on the 2009 Jetta TDI:

    Overall rating: 8.3

    Vehicle

    2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI 4dr Sedan (2.0L 4cyl Turbodiesel 6AM)

    Review

    After 16 months, 22,000 miles. Paint is very soft, hood has numerous chips. Idiot dealer response-"do you drive a lot on the freeway?". Rear brakes overheat frequently, 50% worn with front brakes virtually unused. Idiot dealer response-"that's the way the car is designed". Just received notice from Volkswagen of possible premature wear in transmission, along with extension of the transmission warranty to 100,000 miles, but apparently only on the particular part that is wearing out prematurely. Steering requires more effort than I would like. Seats well shaped but hard. Cost of diesel consistently $.30 higher than gasoline. Good points: excellent fuel mileage (38 average, up to 54 On

    Favorite Features

    Fuel mileage, handling, turbo boost, styling, interior quality, satellite radio.

    Suggested Improvements

    Tougher paint, easier steering, softer seats, dealers who don't employ idiots, 100,000 mile powertrain warranty.

    Here's another one, even worse:

    Overall rating: 6.3

    Vehicle

    2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI 4dr Sedan (2.0L 4cyl Turbodiesel 6AM)

    Review

    Water in tank in aug. "flushed" at dealer. Air compressor bad/replaced in sept/20,000 check. Car died on road. Towed. Fuel system needs replacing due to aug problem:$6500 in parts excludes labor. Progressive only replaced parts 1 at a time. "ok" per dealer. No power 1st day used. Turbo now bad/replaced under warranty. Diagnostics done at dealer couldn't be interpreted. Had to call corporate! Fuel sys warranty void now. Dealer wants to replace fuel sys even new parts. Ins. Co. Says no totals car. We are out $2500. Paid cash for new car for 1st time. Car not used from sept 22 to nov 10 (minus 1 day on road) when we received check from progressive. Worst car experience ever. First and last VW.

    Favorite Features

    It was fun to drive.

    Suggested Improvements

    Fuel filter that stops car if contaminants in fuel prior to damage. Give dealers better diagnostics prior to selling a product.


    Looks a lot like "buyer's remorse" to me.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,020
    At least the Prius HAS buyers.

    They do? Last I read they are on the NO SELL list. At least till Toyota figures out their problem with the brakes.

    Over 1300 reports of brake failures in the 2010 Prius to NHTSA. RECALLED FINALLY
    112 reports of dangerous Cruise Control. That after the "Woz" tried to convince the dweebs at Toyota they had a problem. Anyone buying a Prius until they get their act together is just plain foolish.

    Your 6.3 rating on the Jetta TDI did not make much sense. Is he saying he wrecked the car and had problems after that? Over 10% of Prius buyers this year rated the car under 6.3. I won't take up space with all the problems encountered with the new generation Prius. Still cannot find any unhappy Golf TDI owners to parade out??? :blush:
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,020
    Audi diesel has dominated the races they have entered. Maybe there is a chance NASCAR will switch to diesel and save a lot of fossil fuel for the future. I don't think we will see a Prius Cup Race.

    Here is a thought. They could see who could get around the track the most times before a tank of fuel runs out. Sounds real exciting for the fans. Plenty of time to get a beer and take a potty break waiting for your favorite Prius to come back around the track. It would be right up there with watching paint dry.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    quote-
    Sure, Prius owners can get pretty smug about their gas-sipping rides. (We've also noticed that many like to silently cruise around at 10 mph under the speed limit, apparently trying to achieve the best "score" on their MPG display and to share their earth-loving glow with the cars stacking up behind them).
    -end

    Smug Prius owners? Really?

    Honey bees: Putting the Prius (and every other eco-car) to shame
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    Golf Review (sans TDI

    quote-
    The bottom line is that the Golf is an “entry level” car that, in many respects, behaves like a vehicle costing thousands more. While you’ll pay a little extra to get into the Golf in the first place (our sample, which had the sunroof and Cold Weather Package options, stickered for $21,165), the car’s excellent interior, well-sorted drive train, space efficient design, and all-around refinement are gifts that will keep on giving over time. In fact, one Winding Road staff member commented that the Golf provided a day-to-day driving experience, “Not all that different” from a 3-Series BMW, which gives you some idea of just how special this little car really is.
    -end

    Even when equipped with the mediocre 2.5L gas engine the Golf still receives praise. With the TDI it just gets better.

    With the Golf you can choose from manual or automatic transmission, gas or diesel, you can even move up to the GTI. No choice of engine or transmission with Prius.
  • watkinstwatkinst Posts: 122
    True there is no issue with the very simple urea systems. Not really any different than keeping the washer fluid up for your window wipers. But we all know how difficult that is. Any car with washers on the window wipers are just horrid to maintain ;-)

    But hey forums are full of BS and uninformed crapola.
    Take the cost of ownership argument TDI vs Hybrid as an example. Or the tech vs assumed no tech hybrid vs TDI comment. All really lame and uninformed comments worth nothing.

    The hybrid concept is a good one the current application being marketed and sold to us really isn't a very good solution your pairing an inefficient gas engine with a small and limited electric system. A hybrid Bicycle is not a good Road bike (its too heavy) nor is it a good Mt bike (its too light) the hybrid has a very narrow range of use where it excels. Same goes for our current Hybrid cars.

    The low resistance tires are not great tires when it comes to wear - performance or cost yes the Prius has them. (Low Resistance tire sounds important and like it would really make a massive difference in fuel and operational costs - not really)

    The single largest negative impact the Prius has made (it gave people a justifiable excuse to continue living way too far from work and spending way too much time driving period) Not counting all the additional heavy metals that were mined to build the electrical systems for a car thats a "Hybrid" with a very narrow range where it excels.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    True there is no issue with the very simple urea systems

    Also true is that there is no urea required with Golf TDI, Jetta TDI, Audi A3 TDI models as they meet emissions requirements without having to use a Urea SCR system.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    Still cannot find any unhappy Golf TDI owners to parade out???

    It's hard to find Golf TDI buyers PERIOD. Look to the right for example--only a handful of those 12 reviews are for the TDI. Vs. 123 reviews to date for the Prius. Hence my comment re the Prius having buyers at least.

    Transmission problems sound to be like a much bigger problem than a software update that can be applied in a few minutes. Would you say that anyone who buys a Golf or Jetta TDI before those transmission (and fuel system) problems are worked out is "plain foolish"?
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    edited February 2010
    Transmission problems sound to be like a much bigger problem than a software update that can be applied in a few minutes. Would you say that anyone who buys a Golf or Jetta TDI before those transmission (and fuel system) problems are worked out is "plain foolish"?

    There was a problem with specific component in a limited number of DSG transmissions installed in Jetta TDI. VW has recognized the problem and notified the owners of the problem as well as extending the warranty on the transmission to 100,000 miles to owners of affected vehicles. VW also notified owners they would reimburse owners for repair costs completed before the problem was identified.

    This is what VW, Toyota or any other manufacturer should do when there is a problem. VWoA was slow to react to problems with MkIII and MkIV vehicles. VW has demonstrated with it's actions from about 2005 to current time that it intends to improve quality of it's vehicles, the service experience, and the ownership experience. It is a work in progress.

    There are no known issues with the 2010 DSG in the Golf. It is too early to know if there will be problems anyway.

    Toyota seems to be going the other direction during the past 10 years from stellar quality and reputation to heading to the cellar. I expect that Toyota will fix it's problems and take less time to fix them than it took VW.

    Buyers of diesel or hybrids or any device that is on cutting edge of technology or one that has only a small portion of the market and is not well understood are taking a greater risk. Risk when they need a repair or part, risk of unknown future value.

    No risk, no reward.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,020
    Would you say that anyone who buys a Golf or Jetta TDI before those transmission (and fuel system) problems are worked out is "plain foolish"?

    I would not buy one until I knew the bugs were ironed out of the DSG. Though it is not a safety issue, just an inconvenience. I don't see any accidents as a result of the transmission shifting into neutral. I would rather have that happen than runaway acceleration or no brakes.

    According to Toyota they will start sending out letters next week on the Prius brake issue. Meanwhile pray each time you need to use the brakes and keep a quarter mile between yourself and the car in front of you.

    It is clear that VW is getting better at taking care of customers and Toyota is getting worse.
This discussion has been closed.