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Toyota Prius vs VW Golf TDI

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  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,746
    You ARE a funny guy! First you talk about the poor performance of the Prius, then you assert that it can travel 1/4 mile in one second. I don't think Toyota put FTL drive into the 2010 Prius. Maybe Gen 4? :D
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,746
    A factual and reasonable post. I agree it will probably take Toyota less time to fix its problems than VW, now that its executives have had their "wake up call." They shouldn't have pressed "sleep" on the alarm clock so much though.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,043
    The loss of brakes is on ice and or rough roads. So give an extra long distance. You have to accept that the brakes on the Prius are not top of the heap to start with. And UA is still a reported failure with Prius, though yet to join the ranks of recalled Toyota vehicles for that malady.

    Unsafe at any speed should be the Prius mantra. Where is Ralph Nader when you really need him:

    ON THURSDAY, JANUARY 28TH MY WIFE DROVE OUR 2010 TOYOTA PRIUS TO WORK. THE WAS A SLIGHT COATING OF SNOW ON THE GROUND. LESS THAT ONE BLOCK FROM OUR HOUSE, DRIVING AT NO MORE THAN 10-15 MPH SHE APPLIED THE BRAKES TO STOP AT A STOP SIGN. SHE REPORTED THAT THE BRAKES SEEMED TO LOCK (NOT THE NORMAL ABS FEEL) AND SHE LOST CONTROL OF THE CAR, WHICH THEN SLID/SKIDDED INTO A CURB WHICH PUNCTURED THE FRONT PASSENGER TIRE. THE CAR APPEARED TO HAVE ONLY A PUNCTURED TIRE WHICH WAS CHANGED BY A AAA SERVICE TRUCK. AFTER THE TIRE WAS CHANGED AND THE SERVICE TRUCK LEFT, I ATTEMPTED TO DRIVE THE VEHICLE TO A NEARBY TIRE DEALER. AS I TRIED TO DRIVE THE CAR, I HEARD AND FELT A LOUD SCRAPING NOISE THAT SOUND AND FELT LIKE THE BRAKES WERE STILL ENGAGED. EVEN THOUGH I WAS NOW ON CLEAR PAVEMENT IF I AT ALL TRIED TO APPLY THE BRAKES,THE ABS WENT ON, BUT IN AN AGGRESSIVE MANNER. THE ABS ALSO WENT ON A COUPLE OF TIMES EVEN WITHOUT ME PUTTING MY FOOT ON THE BRAKES. THE TIRE DEALER SAID HE THOUGHT WE MIGHT HAVE BEEN THE FRAME AND TOLD US NOT TO DRIVE THE CAR. THE CAR WAS TOWED TO A NEARBY BODY SHOP TO BE INSPECTED BY OUR INSURANCE COMPANY, STATE FARM. AS OF FEBRUARY 2, 2010 NO INSPECTION HAS TAKEN PLACE. IT IS OUR CONTENTION THAT SOMETHING MALFUNCTIONED WITH THE BRAKES WHICH CAUSED THE ACCIDENT.

    And this:

    I HAVE A 2010 PRIUS. EVERYONE IN THE MEDIA IS TALKING ABOUT BRAKE ISSUES BUT THE REAL PROBLEM IS THAT THE CAR ACCELERATES AFTER IT HITS BUMPS IN THE ROAD. IT FEELS LIKE AN ELECTRONIC PROBLEM. THE BRAKES AREN'T THE ISSUE.

    This is the arrogance that starts at the top of Toyota corporate and extends to the worshipers at the bottom of the heap.

    I OWN A TOYOTA 2010 PRIUS. I COMPLAINED TO THE DEALERSHIP WHERE I BOUGHT MY CAR IN JULY AT MY FIRST SERVICE/OIL CHANGE ABOUT A SUDDEN SURGE IN SPEED WHILE DRIIVING OVER BUMPY SURFACES. I PRESENTED THEM WITH INTERNET INFORMATION I HAD COPIED FROM COMSUMERS HAVING THE SAME PROBLEM BUT THEY WOULD NOT TAKE THEM FROM ME. THEY SERVICED THE CAR, DROVE IT AND RETURNED IT TO ME SAYING THEY FOUND NO PROBLEMS AND THAT I WAS THE ONLY PERSON WHO HAD EVER COMPLAINED ABOUT IT. THEY SAID THEY KNEW OF NO OTHER SIMILAR COMPALINTS. I ASKED THEM TO PUT ON MY BILL THE FACT THAT THIS WAS HAPPENING TO MY CAR SO THAT IT WOULD BE DOCUMENTED FOR THE FUTURE. THEY DID NOT SEEM AT ALL CONCERNED AT THE TIME. IT REMAINS AN ONGOING PROBLEM WHEN I DRIVE.

    I will repeat. Anyone that reads the 1000 plus complaints with the 2010 Prius and still buys one deserves whatever happens.
  • You wrote:

    "Is that a Prius owner in the picture looking longingly at a Jetta TDI?"

    Actually that image came from a U-tube video and the happy, approving
    advocate of the smoke emitting, tire spinning, "clean diesel" is one of the authors
    of the video:
    image

    Like the Jetta users reporting their actual milage at the EPA web site, the truth is:

    - TDIs get ~40 MPG versus ~49 MPG for the 2010 Prius
    - TDI advertisements brag about the noise they make
    - TDI advocates post videos showing tires being wastefully worn down
    - TDI advocates take pride in the smoke and noise from spinning tires
    - even you tried to falsely ask if a Prius owner would aprove of such waste

    Seriously, your problem is not with the Prius but your own TDI advocates.
    They make lie of your claims. For every brick you put up, one of your TDI
    friends is ready to take it back down. Sorry my friend, but with friends
    like them, you have a rough row to hoe.

    You know we are going to take your claims, go to the source, and present the facts
    and data that your fellow TDI advocates brag about. We're going to post the
    VW commercials that contradict your claims. We don't care because you set it
    up and we only have to know it down with the facts and data.

    Prius owners have had to put up with a decade of skeptics, many with greater
    skills and sophistication than your claims. We soon learned that going to the
    source often revealed facts and data 180 degrees from what was
    claimed. It is pattern as familar as a clockwork and Kabuki rigid.

    Please continue to post because wiffle-ball pitches give us a reason to post the
    facts and data. We're not tired and certainly not lazy. Give us another one.

    Bob Wilson
  • bwilson4webbwilson4web Posts: 80
    edited February 2010
    You wrote:

    "Where is Ralph Nader when you really need him."

    The answer is found at this analysis of Prius fatal accidents 2001-2007:

    http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_Fatal_Accidents/

    Now I understand that TDI advocates believe the handling is very important:
    image
    The ability to spin wheels, generating clouds of smoke, noise and disabling
    traction control seems an important 'feature' of TDI vehicles. Regardless,
    you seem interested in the 2010 Prius brake recall, A0B.

    This is what the Prius brake pause looked like before the fix:
    image

    This is what it looked like afterwards:
    image
    You'll notice the brake was quite effective after the speed bump.
    Toyota's fix works and deployment is such that you can't buy a
    2010 Prius from a dealer today without A0B, the patch.

    But since you mentioned test driving a TDI, I think I'll wait for the next
    drizzle day and using the same accelerometer, go looking for some speed
    bumps. Yes indeed, it is time to measure TDI braking performance. As you
    might guess, I have no problem filing an NHTSA report on defective
    TDI braking ... now that we know what to look for.

    Bob Wilson
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,746
    Thanks for presenting the facts. I presented them earlier, without the technical detail, but that was ignored. Constant mis-statements about the braking software problem on the Prius don't serve any useful purpose. It would be like you or me making post after post about the transmissions in TDIs blowing up on the road, causing a menace both to the driver and to anyone in the vicinity (as the parts are ejected from the transmission at fatal velocities).

    Of course, that is totally untrue. As is what some people are posting here about the Prius' braking problem.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,043
    All the made up statistics in the World do NOT change the facts. If you want a safe handling and stopping car. The Golf will outperform ANY Prius on the road. And the IIHS a respected testing source rates the Golf in the top five in it class which includes the Prius. The Prius did not even make the top ten. In fact NO Toyotas in the top 10. So gloat and be smug. You are not as safe in a Prius as a Golf. And neither is even close to the Sequoia. If a few pennies worth of gas saved is more important than your family. It is your choice.

    http://www.iihs.org/ratings/summary.aspx?class=40

    By the way your deaths per 100 million miles study is reminiscent of the recent AGW IPCC reports. Take an agenda and adjust the data to give the desired end result. Far from scientific. Funny when it comes to NHTSA data that is negative toward the Prius it is not useful or is flawed. I guess it kept you busy for a couple hours making graphs and adjusting figures. Very laughable. :P
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,746
    More mis-information. The only reason the 2010 Prius is not rated amongst the IIHS "top picks" is because the car has not yet been tested for rollover. That is as of this year part of the criterion for being a "top pick". Why not wait until the IIHS has completed its tests on the Prius before you start laughing?
  • bwilson4webbwilson4web Posts: 80
    edited February 2010
    You wrote:

    "And the IIHS a respected testing source rates ... "

    Their result is available here:
    http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=566

    They state for the 2010 Prius,
    "Frontal offset test results - Good"
    "Side impact test results - Good"
    "Rear protection - Good"

    "Good" is the highest rating they give in their testing. It is impossible to exceed the IIS "Good" rating.

    You also mentioned:

    ". . . a few pennies worth of gas saved . . . "

    The EPA site shows:
    $1217 - Jetta TDI 2010 expected fuel costs
    $0783 - Prius 2010 expected fuel costs
    - - - - -
    $ 434 -- is a little more than "a few pennies" but closer to a car payment

    You mentioned, "IIHS" Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. So I went to Progressive and entered a 2010 Prius and 2010 Golf. They quoted online:

    $18 - $27 - Comprehensive Coverage
    $123 - $140 - Collision Coverage
    $22 - $22 - Rental Car
    $0 - $0 - Roadside Assistance
    $6 - $7 - Loan/Lease Payoff

    The 2010 Prius came in cheaper than the 2010 Golf. It is interesting how this insurance company provides a lower price to the Prius. I listed both the 2010 Prius and 2010 Golf in the same request for a quote.

    Bob Wilson
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,043
    edited February 2010
    Better get some roadside coverage for your Prius. One poster found out the hard way that Toyota does not provide roadside assistance on the 2010 Prius. Too many to tow in I would guess.

    So lets see how they stack up for insurance:
    Prius insurance = $228 with AAA roadside $59
    Golf Insurance = $196 VW will tow in the unlikely chance you need it.

    We will take your skewed economy numbers just for chuckles. So you save $434 a year in fuel cost with the Prius. A comparable Prius to the Golf TDI comparing amenities would be about $2900 more for the Prius and it does not include a sun roof. Add a sun roof and you are at about $4000 more for the Prius than a Golf TDI. Take off for the extra interest on the additional $4000 and the additional Insurance for towing and it leaves you with about $100 to the good on fuel. Of course that gets more than eaten up by the $4000 premium you paid for the Prius so there is no way with the short "end of life" you projected for the Prius in your study to ever be a better deal than the Golf TDI. Add to that living with a numb handling, poor braking, uncomfortable, noisy car for 5 or 6 years and you are going to be swearing at Mr Toyoda like millions of other folks are right now.

    PS
    Thanks for offering me the opportunity to shoot holes in your incomplete facts.
  • eliaselias Posts: 1,934
    We remain "all talk no action!"
    WIth all the time to post on the web, at least one TDI fan must have time to go testdrive a 2010 Prius and then file 14 NHTSA complaints.
    And Bob W you seem to have a bunch of time - live a little and get out there and flog a TDI during a testdrive, and then call ABC news & LA times and file the NHTSA complaints!
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    How does the cost of maintenance on the Prius compare to Golf TDI?

    Maintenance is included for 3 years 36,000 miles on the Golf TDI.
  • bwilson4webbwilson4web Posts: 80
    edited February 2010
    You mentioned:

    ". . . your skewed economy numbers . . . "

    The source is the EPA web site, www.fueleconomy.gov. But since you
    seem interested in my numbers, let's start with the Edmunds mileage
    numbers for urban travel.

    Most of my travel is in Huntsville and though I'm getting closer to
    52 MPG, I don't have any TDI numbers. So we'll borrow the Edmunds
    numbers:
    image

    48 MPG - NHW20 Prius urban
    32 MPG - Jetta TDI

    We typically drive 20,000 miles per year, mostly urban, but we cruise
    on the highway at speeds that typically provide similar mileage.

    20000 / 48 ~= 417 gallons
    20000 / 32 ~= 625 gallons
    - - - -
    208 gallons, extra diesel bought

    Using $2.50/gallon for diesel:
    $520 per year - more than one car payment per year

    You wrote:

    ". . . you are going to be swearing . . . "

    We bought our first Prius in 2005. Four years later, we bought our second one. Repeat customers, we are quite happy. Gawd d*mn happy.

    Bob Wilson
  • bwilson4webbwilson4web Posts: 80
    edited February 2010
    You mentioned:

    ". . . TDI during a testdrive"

    Actually I want to rent a TDI for 2-3 days. Know of anyone?
    They need to be within say 150 miles of Huntsville AL and I would have no
    problem with driving over and renting one for a weekend.

    I've already visited the local VW dealer and sat in a Jetta TDI. That is how
    I found out about the driver side door jam blocking my view to the left lane.

    Seriously, I'll rent a TDI if we can find one for rent ... anywhere within a two
    hour drive. Perhaps you know a TDI owners in Huntsville AL who would
    agree to a vehicle swap, after handling the insurance issues, for a weekend?

    Bob Wilson
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,043
    I think you have posted those over sized charts before.

    I found out about the driver side door jam blocking my view to the left lane.

    That is the funniest thing you have posted yet. A Prius driver worried about blind spots. The biggest complaint from owners of the 2010 Prius is the horrible blind spots. That and numb steering and uncomfortable seats.

    Knock yourself out, scrolling past repeat posts is easy.

    VW does not need to sell their vehicles to the rental agencies. They sell all they can get to the dealers. No discounts on the TDI models yet. Big discounts on the Prius when they are removed from the no sell list.
  • eliaselias Posts: 1,934
    hey there BW.
    I've never of any VW for rent in USA, either gas or dieseI.
    A PriusTDI weekend-vehicle-swap between pals is a neat idea.
    I think there wouldn't be any insurance issues, as long as both parties had their own insurance.
    I do have a close friend locally who has a pre-2010 Prius, the one in which I rode a couple times. Hmm... If we make it happen, I will surely post afterwards!
    cheers...
  • You wrote:

    ". . . you have posted those over sized charts before."

    They show the source material, the original data with
    the back-up facts and data. I'm really posting for visitors
    who may not have ready access to empirical, hard, data.
    They wouldn't be necessary if misleading and inaccurate
    posting weren't slow-pitched in this thread.

    Bob Wilson
  • bwilson4webbwilson4web Posts: 80
    edited February 2010
    Hi,

    I have a 2010 Prius and am looking for a Huntsville Alabama area,
    TDI owner to swap with for a weekend or whatever makes sense. I still
    want to make sure both insurance companies are 'cool' with a short
    term rider.

    Bob Wilson
  • You wrote:

    "According to Toyota they will start sending out letters next week . . ."

    Fri. 2010/02/05 - Announcement comes out about voluntary Prius brake recall

    Mon-Wed. - Saw posting about A0B fix working

    Wed 2010/02/10 - Called and schedule brake fix along with oil change and tire rotation.

    Thu. 2010/02/11 - Dealer called and left message about recall.

    Fri. 2010/02/12 - Dealer called a second time and left message about recall.
    Found e-mail from dealer about recall.

    Sat. 2010/02/13 - Car at dealer for schedule maintenance and brake fix.

    The reason I bring this up is Toyota is using the telephone and e-mail to contact
    Prius owners. I've not seen the letter but it won't have any effect ... I've
    already got the A0B software.

    Bob Wilson
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,043
    Another case where you cannot believe a word Toyota says. Hopefully you did get a fix for your brakes.

    TORRANCE, Calif., February 8, 2010 – Toyota Motor Sales (TMS), U.S.A., Inc, today announced it will conduct a voluntary safety recall on approximately 133,000 2010 Model Year Prius vehicles to update software in the vehicle’s antilock brake system (ABS). No other Toyota vehicles are involved in this recall.

    The recall will allow Toyota dealers to perform the software update on 2010 Prius vehicles sold prior to this running production change. Only Prius vehicles produced since May 2009 are subject to this recall. First- and second-generation Prius vehicles use a different ABS system and are not involved in this campaign.

    Toyota will begin mailing letters to Prius owners included in this recall next week to let them know when to bring their vehicles into a dealership. Owners will only receive a letter if their vehicle is involved in the recall.


    http://www.toyota.com/recall/abs.html
  • You wrote:

    "Hopefully you did get a fix for your brakes."

    I did. I had test data documenting the brake pause before the fix. Afterwards,
    I repeated the earlier tests and the A0B fix is quite effective. I have graphs
    showing the before and after results ... if you are interested.

    Bob Wilson
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 5,911
    This is starting to snowball and we've been down this "diesel vs hybrid" road before.

    BEFORE it gets personal and out of hand, let's all pull back a bit and realize that changing the other guy's mind isn't very likely. I like a good debate as much as anyone, so lets keep it at that level and avoid going after each other... thanks!

    MODERATOR
    Need help navigating? pf_flyer@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • bwilson4webbwilson4web Posts: 80
    edited February 2010
    Is there any possibility of relocating the thread to a TDI forum?

    After all, those pushy Prius advocates will no doubt head right over there ... NOT!

    Bob Wilson
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,043
    edited February 2010
    It is linked to the diesel forum and the Golf links. We have had Prius people beating us down in those threads since the Prius was first announced 10 years ago. You are a mild diesel hater debater compared to John1701. Its all fun.

    PS
    This has been around a while:

    http://vlane.com/comparison/2118
  • You suggested:

    "It is linked to the diesel forum and the Golf links. We have had Prius people beating us down in those threads since the Prius was first announced 10 years ago."

    I went to those forums and didn't see the same title for a thread.

    You metioned:

    "You are a mild diesel hater debater compared to John1701."

    I've met John1701 in person and other forums and he is a nice guy. The funny thing is I came here to make sure folks had the latest facts and data about A0B, the brake pause. I typically don't go looking for TDI forums to 'spin them up.'

    Bob Wilson
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,746
    edited February 2010
    Big discounts on the Prius when they are removed from the no sell list.

    First, they are available for sale or lease NOW. As Bob mentioned, it takes very little time to apply the software fix for the brakes.

    Second, I don't understand something. A few posts ago you talked about how much more expensive the Prius is compared to the Golf TDI. But now you talk about "big discounts" on the Prius. How big are they? $1000? $2000? More?

    Golf TDI 5-door with AT: $24,610 MSRP including destination.

    You noted that VW dealers are not discounting the Golf TDI, so let's assume that is the price.

    Prius 5-door with "AT" (more like CVT): $23,550 MSRP

    So for comparable base models, the Prius is more than $1000 less than the TDI looking at MSRPs. But after applying the "big discounts" you mentioned, now the base Prius is thousands less than the base TDI.

    As for adding a moonroof, the Prius III with moonroof is $28,380 MSRP. But that car includes navigation and Bluetooth. A comparably equipped 5-door Golf TDI lists at $27,559. Since there are no discounts, that is the price. Now apply the "big discounts" available on the Prius, and it will cost less than the Golf. Plus the Prius will have that nifty solar-powered moonroof with the ventilator fan and remote AC control. :)
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,043
    Prius 5-door with "AT" (more like CVT): $23,550 MSRP

    Try to find a stripped Prius. Not many in CA. Even with discounts the price average is $27k to $32k. Plus TTL which is over $3000. Add $3000 more for the NAV moonroof option. You will have a hard time getting out of a Toyota dealer in CA with a Prius for less than $30k cash. It will be easier with the current debacle going on at Toyota. Should I say it is a buyers market for the risk takers. :shades:

    Finding a Prius is easy. First dealer in San Diego I pulled up has 60 in stock. If you want a Golf TDI you will have to wait and pay MSRP. That is against all my principles. So I will keep what I have till I find what I want at the price I want to pay.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,043
    I've met John1701 in person and other forums and he is a nice guy.

    No one says he is not a nice guy. He just loves hybrids and hates diesel cars. So we have been debating in the diesel forums for at least 7 years. I have come to really enjoy driving diesel vehicles and am frustrated with the obstacles put up by the regulators that are beholden to the oil companies. My experience with hybrids having owned one is far from positive.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    Golf TDI MSRP starts at $23,104. And that is before the tax credit is considered.

    $24,610 is with optional DSG and is for the 4 door.

    Unfortunately, Prius is not available in a 2 door.

    Unfortunately, Prius is not available with a manual transmission.

    Unfortunately, maintenance is not included with Prius.

    I did a search on Autotrader and found several new 2010 Prius for sale for $21,802.
    Prius is less cost than Golf TDI.

    Sometimes, cheaper is not better.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,746
    Try to find a stripped Prius.

    The closest dealer to me had eight as of last Saturday. But MN is not CA... thankfully.

    Add $3000 more for the NAV moonroof option.


    I did. As I explained, Prius is less expensive than the Golf TDI even with those options, after we apply the "big discounts" you say are available on the Prius now.

    BTW, I just did a search of new Priuses within 100 miles of 90210 and there were 651. Nearly 100 of those were base models, under $24k. Nearly 150 were under $25k. So it appears there's quite a few of "stripped" Prius available in CA, at least in SoCal.
This discussion has been closed.