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Toyota Prius vs VW Golf TDI

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Comments

  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    As battery technology continues to improve, not taking advantage of an electric motor makes even less sense. The new Prius and the upcoming plug-ins will provide the real-world proof of that.

    Non-Hybrid Diesel will simply fade away as the number of those buying hybrids grows.

    Being clean & efficient will include the use of an electric motor, regardless of the fuel used.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    The Prius hybrid automobile is popular for its fuel efficiency, but its electric motor and battery guzzle rare earth metals, a little-known class of elements found in a wide range of gadgets and consumer goods

    As hybrid cars gobble rare metals, shortage looms

    Damage to earth to obtain an ever materials for batter production is expanding at an alarming rate.

    Jack Lifton, an independent commodities consultant and strategic metals expert, calls the Prius "the biggest user of rare earths of any object in the world."

    Prius may be the single most environmentally damaging vehicle.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,678
    While I do like the simplicity of an electric car. Our government is making moves that will negate the advantages of EVs or Plug-in Hybrids. With my current provider SDG&E it is difficult to stay out of the top tier pricing for electricity. When you use more than 445 KWHs in a month the rate jumps to 31 cents per KWH topping out at 35 Cents. SDG&E just applied for another price increase today. So who knows where it will end.

    The Chevy Volt has gotten a lot of press lately as a great solution. They base their very optimistic figures on 5 cent per KWH night rates. We don't have any night rates. It is all the same. According to my calculations the Chevy Volt will cost about 3 times as much per mile on electric only as your Prius or a Golf TDI. I doubt that any plug in will do any better based on miles per KWH.
  • PFFlyer@EdmundsPFFlyer@Edmunds Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 5,808
    We're pretty much off track here and no longer having a comparison discussion of two specific vehicles which is what this discussion is supposed to be about.

    If you will search the discussion lists you will find places to discuss diesels, hybrids, and EV's in general.

    If need be, I'll retire this discussion until someone actually wants to use it to comparison shop the two vehicles in the title. :sick:

    PFFlyer@Edmunds

    Moderator - Hatchbacks & Hybrid Vehicles

  • This issue has been discussed already and it is SO old it ain't funny. There is absolutely NO truth to this whatsoever. I can't believe some of the stuff people believe. Hey Mopar... the world is indeed flat. LOL :P
  • As usual with GM their projections are way off. I can only dream of 5 cents PKH. There is no such thing as low off peak rates in the NE. The Volt will definitely be a failure. No one is gonna spend 40 grand on a car that can only go 40 miles. What happens after forty miles? I don't want to go into that issue as I am sure there is a thread for that. We certainly don't want to annoy the moderator as she/he would like us to stay on track.
  • f that article is correct, at current prices, a Prius uses about $120 of rare earths.

    Per the article, a Prius has 1 kg of neodymium in the magnets. Current price looks like $20/kg.

    Neodymium metal prices

    Plus 10 kg of lanthanum in the battery. Current price of about $10/kg.

    Lanthanum metal prices

    Whereas nickel is about $8/lb, which works out to about $18/kg. So the 30 lbs of nickel in the battery currently costs maybe $250.

    Kitco - Spot Nickel Historical Charts and Graphs - Nickel charts - Industrial metals

    If you want rare, the platinum for the catalytic converter is three orders of magnitude more expensive, at about $33,000 a kg (about $1250 per troy ounce these days, roughly 12 troy ounces in your standard pound.)

    A typical catalytic converter might use 5(?) grams of platinum. If I did the arithmetic right, I come up with about $165 worth of platinum in the catalytic converter.

    So at current prices the rank ordering is:
    Nickel in the battery: $250.
    Platinum in the catalytic converter: $165.
    Rare earths: $120.

    Let's not get started on the cell phone batteries in landfills as well as old hard drives.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    f that article is correct, at current prices, a Prius uses about $120 of rare earths.

    And the damage to the environment as a consequence of obtaining resources and manufacturing batteries for the Prius, what is that worth?
  • You're kidding right? What about the environmental impact of drilling for oil? What about the precious metals that go into conventional vehicles. There is an abundant amount of some of these elements and eventually technology will evolve that will enable us to harvest more. In the meantime, there is a bounty on hybrid batteries and they are all being recycled when the time comes necessary. Your argument makes no sense whatsoever.

    I guess you forgot to read this article.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN28385099

    When the price is right, things magically appear. Hybrids and Turbines.. Gotta love em!!!

    Oh well... I gotta glide down to Starbucks for my late evening latte. Usually a bunch of Prius folks are in the parking lot chit chatting. I feel so good to be a part of that group. Makes me all tingly inside!!! :shades:
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    jpeters1970 I have had a few VWs (late 90's). Seats were HORRIBLE. I'll take my Prius any day over a VW.

    Have you driven the current VW Golf and Jetta models? Or are you comparing a 2010 Prius to 1990 VW's?

    VW TDI Great Seats

    VW has better seats than Toyota, and superior interiors too.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,678
    I have sat in both and the Edmund's article is spot on. The VW seats are superior. I am hoping the 2010 Golf TDI has the same seats as the 2009 GTI. They are wonderful.
  • ctlctl Posts: 123
    It is true that Jetta and Golf have had a long history and loyal cult followers, mostly young folks. They are German (the magic word), solid, fun to drive. But they are also small, unreliable and relatively expensive to buy and keep, especially after the fun wear off. Knowing that, the majority of people under budgets now choose the japanese counter parts (civic/corolla...).

    What's putting them back to the main radar screen then? diesel, MPG, price for fuel. Would TDI be as sexy if it is only a more efficent gas engine that give you the same MPG?? diesel is nothing but a variety of gas.

    The small cult of followers now finally have something to brag about and cheer outloud about it. But does that make a difference? They are and will still only be a very small %, after the fun wear off...
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,678
    I can tell you one thing the dealers in San Diego are thrilled with the response to the Jetta TDI sales. Half of the sedans and 80% of the Sportwagens sold are diesel. You could not be more wrong about regular unleaded and diesel as fuel. Diesel offers a lot more energy per gallon than RUG. And the crap gas we get in CA with ethanol kills the mileage on my 3 gas vehicles. I will never buy another gas engine unless they eliminate the ethanol.

    PS
    According to Edmund's inventory. There is not a Sportswagen TDI available in San Diego County.
  • I couldn't agree with you more. If all the VW crowd has to crow about are good seats then the laugh is sure on them. All I know is that the German cars in general have very firm seats. The litmus test for me is if my butt does not ache when I get out of the car, then the seat is fine. In the VW I had back pains and actually traded the car in and lost money due to the fact it was relatively new. (Volvo has the best seats, like living room furniture)

    VW, Audi has the best interiors in the business but on the opposite side of the spectrum has the worst electronic gremlins I've ever seen. What is the benefit of a nice interior if the car is in the shop half the time? LOL :confuse:

    I would imagine the TDI has special seats to absorb all the vibrations from the diesel engine. I still find it amazing how a diesel engine stays together with such high compression. Unfortunately way too much buzzy feelings transmit through the steering wheel and gear shifter making for a very uncomfortable city car. The Prius OTOH is smooth/silent as silk. Love it!!!
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    Toyota has the best hybrids in the business but on the opposite side of the spectrum has the most boring cars I've ever driven. What is the benefit driving a hybrid "look at me, I'm green" boring appliance if it is in the garage half the time and you have to buy a Camaro to have and driving enjoyment? LOL.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,621
    Some people get a smile of enjoyment cruising along at 50 mpg. There are different ways to find enjoyment. Personally, I'm past the Camaro days. Driving a big barge like that isn't my idea of fun, even if it does have a big V8 in it. I find smaller, more nimble cars more fun. And easier on the pocketbook.
  • Toyota does make the best CARS in the business, however each vehicle serves its own purpose. I absolutely ADORE my Prius for the fuel economy, the gadgets, the proven reliability and its versatility. However, if I want to autocross, carve mountain roads I certainly won't do it in a Prius. That is not its function. I absolutely fell in love with the looks of the Camaro and based on early reviews I'm really looking forward to getting it. I opted for the six cylinder as that is enough power for me. I look forward to going out to the beach towns and exploring some unhidden treasures along the Hudson Valley. It's nice to be able to afford the best of both worlds. I'm sure those two will just get fine together in my garage. Gotta love it. LOL!!
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,678
    Better get em while they are still legal in the USA.

    Toyota Hybrids Blocked From U.S. Due to Patent Issues?

    Toyota faces patent infringement claims from a company called Paice LLC. Paice filed an official complaint with the U.S. International Trade Commission on Thursday in Washington, D.C. The fling, not immediately available for public viewing, claims that Toyota has infringed upon several of the patents awarded to Paice in regards to drive trains for hybrid vehicles. Paice's filing seeks a complete ban on several Toyota models from out market including the Prius, Highlander Hybrid, Camry Hybrid, and several Lexus hybrid models.

    http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1034920_toyota-hybrids-blocked-from-u-s-due-- to-patent-issues

    The VW TDIs may soon pass Toyota hybrid sales. VW sold same percentage Jetta models as the Prius in the Cash 4 Clunkers program. We have to assume most were diesel as they have the best mileage advantage for trades with 18 MPG clunkers

    http://www.autoobserver.com/2009/09/new-math-cash-for-clunkers-numbers-dont-add-- up.html.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,621
    That's an unlikely outcome. Hybrids mean too much to Toyota to have them blocked from the U.S. It's more likely Toyota would settle out of court with Paice if Toyota thinks there's a good chance Paice will prevail in the suit.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,678
    I thought Toyota settled that long time ago. Seems like they are just trying to outlast them. Typical big corporate tactic. Hire more lawyers and hope the other guy runs out of money. Toyota is losing money right now from overbuilding in the US. How much will they spend to keep a marginal product on the market? I doubt they make as much on a Prius built in Japan as a Camry built here.
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