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Toyota Prius vs VW Golf TDI

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Comments

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    The 2010 Prius already embarrassed the Jetta TDI in the run from LA to LV and back. Is it common in the diesel diehard community to be such a masochist that you want to see another beating?

    http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2009/08/2009-edmunds-fuel-sipper-smackd- own-hybrids-versus-diesel-and-mini.html

    "The Back Roads
    The champ: 2010 Toyota Prius with 47.2 mpg
    2nd Place: 2010 Honda Insight with 44.1 mpg
    3rd Place: 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI with 41.2 mpg
    4th Place: 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid with 39.6 mpg
    5th Place: 2009 Mini Cooper with 38.5 mpg

    This was the diesel Jetta's domain last year, but the all-new 2009 model falls back in the pack to a still-impressive 41.2 mpg due to a more powerful turbodiesel engine that did a better job tackling the extended grades through the Mojave and Death Valley. The all-new Prius, on the other hand, maintains its pace to take the first victory. As expected, the Insight came close to the Prius, but its mild-hybrid technology couldn't match the Toyota's full-hybrid setup, which features more battery power and a more highly developed ability to run on electricity only."

    "The City
    The champ: 2010 Toyota Prius with 48.7 mpg
    2nd Place: 2010 Honda Insight with 43.4 mpg
    3rd Place: 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid with 35.1 mpg
    4th Place: 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI with 31.6 mpg
    5th Place: 2009 Mini Cooper with 30.1 mpg

    As expected, the 2010 Fusion Hybrid moved up in the rankings and the Jetta TDI took a dive during the 200-mile city driving loop through suburban Las Vegas."

    "The Highway
    The champ: 2010 Toyota Prius with 47.4 mpg
    2nd Place: 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI with 40.6 mpg
    3rd Place: 2010 Honda Insight with 38.6 mpg
    4th Place: 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid with 36 mpg
    5th Place: 2009 Mini Cooper with 33.3 mpg"

    Oh, wait a sec.. you actually referred to the comparo of the old Gen 2 Prius to the current Gen TDI....Buwahahahahaha!!!! Ahhh, now I see..... You need to grasp at the slightest breath of positive fresh air, sort of like being alone at sea with no help in sight, ehhh? Here I'll throw you another gasp of fresh air. The current gen TDI is better than the Gen 1 Prius....: Have a blast.. :shades:
  • The Prius hybrid is much more fuel efficient that the Vw TDI. No one is debating that. It's roughly 25% more fuel efficient than the Jetta is now or new Golf TDI will be. Why is MPG continually jammed down everyone's throat when it is clear which car is better in that catagory? MPG winner = PRIUS. We get it. Trust me, we get it.

    All I am saying is I will trade that 25% mileage difference for upper 30s overall mpg AND have fun driving each and every day in the new Golf. To each his own.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,883
    You have not given us any facts only your biased opinion. For you real world is hybrid cars and specifically the ones you make your living on. That makes your comments suspect. I am not alone in believing the EPA has done an injustice to VW and their very efficient diesel cars. You can believe what you like. That does not in any way make it a fact. I would say more than not it is fantasy.

    http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2008/05/2009-jetta-tdis-mediocre-epa-ra- ting-not-whole-story.html
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,883
    Show us something real world. Going a few hundred miles does not give a real true picture. The ball is in the Prius court. Can they top the Jetta TDI on a real around the USA trip?

    August 21, 2009, 1:42 pm
    Mileage Champs Break Another Record in VW Jetta TDI
    Together, the Taylors own nearly 40 world records for fuel economy, and this month they added to their tally by breaking the mileage record for driving the 48 contiguous United States. Their mark: 67.9 miles per gallon, achieved over 19 days and some 9,500 miles in a 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI.

    Indeed, the folks at the Guinness Book of World Records have some pretty strict rules about mileage driving — even a minor traffic violation would have disqualified the Taylors. For record-verification purposes, a Shell station manager checked their odometer at each stop. The couple also took time-stamped photographs at each state line.


    http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/21/mileage-champs-break-another-record-i- n-vw-jetta-tdi/
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Since you've been a member here so long I would have thought that you would have known these facts about the EPA ratings. Nothing stated above is an opinion. It's history.

    The fuel economy testing methods were created back when the FE ratings were first required to be shown on the Maroney labels. Nothing has been done to the testing protocols since then. What has been done is that the numbers have had 2 discounts applied to the data to make then numbers more accurate for day to day driving. I thought everyone knew this!! :confuse:
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    This means absolutely nothing.

    If they drove a 2010 Prius their mileage would be significantly better. So why is a Prius not on the world record books? Because nobody on earth can drive as fuel efficeintly as the Taylors. This is more about the driver than the car itself. Nobody else makes it their career to beat 40 world records.

    I look forward to the day when the Taylors drive a Prius because then that VW TDI mileage figure will look subpar at best. Unlike the second generation Prius the third generation has far superior highway mileage. There is no other car offered by any mainstream auto company that can beat the Prius in terms of city/highway mileage. NONE.

    As one poster previously quoted: "Why do we Prius owners always focus on MPG?" The reason is because the Prius mileage is alway being challenged here. Why? I guess fiction makes better reading than facts. Such as this idea of a EPA conspiracy? I guess anyone can make up conspiracies about almost anything including whether the latest Elvis seen in Vegas is nothing other than the ghost of Elvis.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Unfortunately your VW TDI was a piece of junk .

    I am grateful I dont own such a VW.

    I owned a problematical 07 BMW 335i that caused so much aggravation that I will neverbuy a BMW again. I hated it so much that I sold it even before the 4 year warranty expired.

    Superior German engineering without quality control is junk. Unfortunately there is a lot of German junk out there.

    Show me a German auto maker that can make a car as reliable as a Prius and I will show you Mercedes Benz in the 1970s and the early 80s. Unfortunately that involves history books and not the cars that are sold today at their dealerships
  • 104wb104wb Posts: 38
    Actually, for the 2008 ratings, data from three additional tests are factored into the fuel economy calculation. True, these are not new tests; they carry over from the emissions testing side. However one of these tests, a cold weather test, was never previously required of diesel cars, so no data existed to roll over to the fuel economy side. Diesel manufacturers were given the option of using the standard two tests and applying a 'fudge factor' (based on an extensive data base of 600+ gasoline powered vehicles, only 2-3 diesels), for the first couple of years. After that, all five tests have to be run. It could be the use of this gasoline-derived fudge factor that skews the diesel results, but that should go away once all five tests are being run to calculate the fuel economy. I do agree that the 2008+ ratings for diesels seem to underpredict. The EPA did have a document that admitted to probably underestimating diesel bt 18%' but that verbage was later removed (and I didn't save the original .pdf). Pretty uniformly, the diesel driver data on fueleconomy.gov shows the real-world 'average' to be at the EPA highway value. True, most of these populations are low, but combined Jetta population is statistically significant. This is in contrast to most gasoline inputs, where the average is close to the combined rating. I also agree that the diesels would have had a larger tax credit if the EPA city figure was more accurate.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    I would love to see that missing EPA document which involves larger sampling and more closely reflects the real world population than those tiny unrepresenative samples from fueleconomy.gov.

    Unfortunately it's not here. Do you know where I can access it?
  • 104wb104wb Posts: 38
    Here is the document. They derived their formula from 400+ cars, not 600+, and only one was a diesel. They were very much focused on more accurately reflecting hybrid mileage as they formulated the 2008 equations, you can see by reading the document.

    Interestingly, they used CR data, Edmunds data, and fueleconomy.gov data as a 'sanity check' as they developed their formulae. Again, the comment about underpredicting diesel by 18% can no longer be found.

    http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/420d06002.pdf
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,749
    I can see why they took it out. It really is "the smoking gun" so to speak of the anti diesel trail the EPA and CARBS have traveled and their biases towards hybrids.

    I can recall the absolute bru ha ha (2003/2004 MY) from Prius owners when the EPA of 60 city and 50 highway was posted under the "old" testing procedures. Owners posting 45-48 (combined) (-18 to -13% worse). For a host of reasons, EPA decided to change the tried and true testing procedures

    2003 TDI EPA was 42/49. As one who considered a Prius, I was getting 48-52 mpg +6% to +15.5% better in a rolling parking lot commute. So really the % delta was 24% to 28.5% !! So while I was not one of the (Prius) owners complaining, it was pretty obvious (even to me a now diesel and long time gasser owner) the EPA "had " to do something, if the stated policy of promoting hybrids and dissing diesel was to continue.

    But really it is not a big deal as all the diesel oems have to do is to implement the engine @ idle shut off mechanisms. Some diesel oems have put it in the European higher mpg diesels, the EPA and CARBS are loathed to let over here.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    Current generation of TDI is the MK6 platform, not the MK5 which is the current Jetta TDI. Golf TDI is MK6.
    Comparison was 2009 vs. 2009, it is still 2009.

    If you are trying to make the point that comparing a 2009 to a 2009 is not relevant, then I have to tell you I strongly disagree.

    Oh, wait a sec.. you actually referred to the comparo of the old Gen 2 Prius to the current Gen TDI....Buwahahahahaha!!!! Ahhh, now I see..... You need to grasp at the slightest breath of positive fresh air, sort of like being alone at sea with no help in sight, ehhh? Here I'll throw you another gasp of fresh air. The current gen TDI is better than the Gen 1 Prius....: Have a blast.. :shades:

    Buwahahahahaha!!!! You entertain yourself.

    Prius is does mileage well and that is the only thing it does well.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    Diesel mpg was accurrate for day to day driving before the mpg ratings were "adjusted" to correct the inflated inaccurate ratings of hybrids. It is only now that ratings are lower than actual for diesels.

    What has been done is that the numbers have had 2 discounts applied to the data to make then numbers more accurate for day to day driving. I thought everyone knew this!! :confuse: Yes, everyone knows that hybrids did not meet the EPA mpg ratings before the ratings were discounted for hybrids.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Apparently the smoking gun is not there.

    I appreciate 104wb for pointing out that document. But what stirs my suspicion is this notion of yours about anti-diesel folks suppressing that document. That sounds very dubious indeed.

    Based on existing documents the Prius remains KING
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Funny....I was thinking the same thing about the TDI's.. one trick ponies, they handle nicely.

    Otherwise the Prius has it all over the VW TDI's in just about every category; highway fuel economy, city fuel economy, room inside, reliability, sales volume. Different perspectives.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    As one poster previously quoted: "Why do we Prius owners always focus on MPG?" The reason is because the Prius mileage is alway being challenged here.

    Reason is that mileage and emissions are the only areas the Prius excels in.

    Prius delivers the highest mpg of any passenger car sold in U.S at the current time. That is not disputed.

    Where are you seeing the Prius mpg being challenged?
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    More TDI's are sold (worldwide) than Prius. It is not even close. Toyota sells more diesels worldwide than Prius. Prius is not even the # 1 sales volume in U.S.A. for Toyota. It is not even #2. It is not even important enough to warrant building it in North America.

    If sales volume is so important to your perspective, why not drive a Corolla, it outsells the Prius. Or why not the Focus, it outsells the Prius so it must be superior to Prius.

    What is the reliability difference between the 2010 Prius and 2010 Golf TDI? Or the 2009 Prius vs. the 2009 Jetta TDI?
    You must have some data to back up your statement, or is it just your opinion based on anecdotal experience?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    It's not valid because Edmunds did a comparo of an outgoing model the 2009 that was designed in 2001/02 to the more up-to-date Jetta. When the new 2010 Prius arrived 45 days later the prior comparo was made moot. I called Edmunds out on that issue when it presented the original comparo.

    They may have as well compared the 09 Jetta to the 2001 Prius, also an outdated model.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    This discussion is between NA models nothing else.

    Regarding reliability, unfortunately VW's past reputation has to be disproven before it gets the benefit of the doubt; c.f. Hyundai which is in the midst of accomplishing that goal. The Toyota hybrids are always among the most reliable vehicles on the road, the Prius being the most reliable vehicle in its class. That reputation has to be disproven also.

    Corolla vs Prius? Again this thread and this discussion concerns only the Golf ( and Jetta by association ) and the Prius. Nothing else.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,749
    ..."Apparently the smoking gun is not there. "...

    The poster that made reference to it, clearly said it was removed.

    ..."Based on existing documents the Prius remains KING"...

    Judging by the sales of Ford Focus/ Toyota Corolla/ Honda Civic and many others in the segment, and the relative lower sales of the Prius, evidently an overwhelming majority of folks (those who pull the trigger anyway) think other wise. The cost per mile driven (over all) seems to be the "king".

    That is even with the 3,500/4,500 so called "Cash For Clunkers" recent give away program, where Focus,Corolla, Civic, out did the Prius. It barely topped the Camry. If more folks were more convinced of the "value added" for the Prius and were put off by its higher price, surely $-3,500/-4,500 OFF/discount would be a PRIUS deal MAKER !!??
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Where are you seeing the Prius mpg being challenged?

    Where? How about today's posts. Guiness Book of World Records and the post regarding the missing document that proves that the relative MPG advantage of a Prius is not as large as documented.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Judging by the sales of Corolla/Civic and many others in the segment,



    King of MPG or sales volume?
    You do know the difference between sales volumes and MPG?

    The poster that made reference to it, clearly said it was removed

    And as I said the smoking gun is not there. How more clearer do you want me to write this?
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    VW sales are pitiful in USA mainly because Americans are very well informed with regards to reliability. Hyundai's first step towards its success was its focus on reliability.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,749
    "You do know the difference between sales volumes and MPG? "

    Now whose doing a dumb impression?
  • I'll take a new 2010 Golf TDI over a Prius. Just sayin'.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    I dont know did I say you were dumb?

    Your post was focused on sales volume? What the heck has that got to do with the King of MPG in terms of what is offered by the big auto makers ?
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,749
    As was said before, much better mpg cars (which happen to be diesels) are being kept off the US market. Of the ones that make it here, the defacto lower cost per mile driven are for example ,Focus/Corolla/Civic/Fit , etc which happen to be gassers. The US markets are not even close to being serious about the so called RUG to PUG shortage and over consumption if all they do is sing the praises of a very low selling volume hybrid. Especially since that car uses RUG to PUG the very thing that is being advocated to.... cut. That is like a cocaine addict saying the habit is kicked because he is using....less. Indeed all this is cover or real speak for even more imported oil.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Lowest cost per mile is dependent on how long the owner keeps his car and how much city driving versus highway driving he does.

    The longer a Prius is kept means the cost per mile advantage can exceed that of a Fit, Civic or Focus especially if driven mainly in stop and go city traffic.

    Vancouver taxis are increasingly Priuses because many high mileage Priuses have proven themselves as providing the lowest cost per miles.

    Also a Prius has about as much interior space is more comparable to a Camry than a Corolla, Fit, or Focus . So that comparison itself is not even justified.

    In fact if I am not mistaken the VW Golf is less practical and spacious than a Corolla/Matrix.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 5,859
    Let's remember... the topic here is NOT hybrid vs diesel. Nor is this a place to get a "personal edge" on things and try to prove something.

    If you want to talk about a comparison of the vehicles in the title, great. But let's rein this in and stick closer to the subject please. This has all the earmarks of being right on the edge of personal insults, and that's not going to happen is it?

    Thanks for your participation and cooperation.

    MODERATOR
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  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,749
    Yes even Edmunds has done a B/E analysis on it. LONG time /miles comes to mind.

    So for example in 04 , I had the choice of a 04 Civic, 04 Civic Hybrid, 04 Prius for an everyday commute. Just to own hybrids cost 8,000 and 12,000 MORE, respectively. Needless to say 8,000 and 12,000 dollars can buy a lot of commute fuel. In my case @38 mpg Civic vs 42 mpg Civic Hybrid vs 45 mpg Prius, you can do the math to indicate how long it would take to BE.

    If 43 years to 64.5 years don't jump out at you ... let me know....

    But $8k/12k can buy 2,667 gals-4,000 gals of fuel (@3 per gal) or @38 mpg 101,346 miles to 152,000 miles of commute fuel. :surprise: :shades:

    But here is a dirty little secret...While extremely high-mileage hybrids provide eco bragging rights, they don't save much more gas than midsize sedans.
This discussion has been closed.