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What should GM do with Hummer

An open letter to TATA. Mahindra is coming with a little diesel. Ford killed the Ranger and now we wait for F100 or something. TATA should buy the Shreveport plant with some cash and an IOU backed by future Shreveport profits.

That is, after a good due diligence review of the plant and employees with good engineers, business types, and some old American gear heads and busted knuckles types.

Just when the roads, bridges, floods, and earthquakes seem to fill the news, everyone is running to little econ-boxes. Those and chrome wont get you home. Some old timers still like long strokes with torque, body on frame, shocks and springs (two different assemblies). Not waiting for a DI V6 nor a small diesel redesigned to fit the vehicle (it should be the other way around).

Instead of H3x H3This H3That, the business model should have provided for, what I think are the two main H3 buyers, rock crawlers and grocery getters who want a capable vehicle to get them home, fit in the garage, nice turning radius, and you get the message.

Even Petersen's staff, I believe, have given up on IFS. Our Blue Beauty with it's aluminum front differential, will probably stay in the latter category.

As such, knowing that a truck that tows should not go higher than a 3.73 gear, what would that or 3.55 gearing do for on the road mileage. What if we except double nickles again (I know, painful to try and do a 1300 mile non-stopper at 55). What would the city and highway mileage be. As a reference our previous vehicle, 2005 CRD, weighed about the same, 3.73 gears, (yes I know diesel torque, but compare torque and hp numbers) and for a few miles before everything went south was fine-hills meant nothing, but hard seats like a lot of new vehicles, and a little too small. The H3 has been great except for those rock crawling gears.

Would the business model be able to build both an H3 with either IFS or SFA? What about different gearing?

Why isn't the Colorado better, we would have bought one, what's up with its' turning radius compared to the H3. And why does the news show colorado/canyons being used over there. Are we buying them and shipping them over as part of our involvement expense. Kill off a small truck and concentrate on Hummers? Fix the twins and build both the twins and Hummers. Don't even want an H3T. No way. Don't think rock crawlers do either.
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Comments

  • aspesisteveaspesisteve Posts: 833
    your trying to justify the Hummer's existence based on being prepared for a natural disaster?

    You'd buy one for that?

    I mean some people will justify the big gas guzzling SUV 4x4 for the one or two family trips per year which I think is quite a stretch. But you would buy a Hummer to be ready for the next hurricane Katrina?

    not sure I can buy into that logic

    Pesonally I would like to think the Hummer's days are over. Cept maybe for use by the military.
  • Not trying to justify the H3. Afterall, I am t_o_d, we have had econoboxes that weren't much better than the H3. The post was a suggestion for anybody with deeper pockets than us. If Ford had spent some money on the ranger, it would've been a no brainer (autoblog has asked and asked).

    Matter of fact if people dump the threes and some more money blows my way, there will be another three. SFA?, electric supercharger for a little boost? I never said being prepared for a natural disaster, else I would join the HOPE program. No, just disgusted with marketing misfires - marketing misfires, a book title.

    Sometimes what goes up comes down. Months/years ago, my post question why a house in the suburbs - what are you afraid of in the city/apartments/whatever. No suburbs-no need for cars. Also, why did gm and ford and oil or who else dug up the streetcars and interurbans. What do you (rhetorical and not addressed to specific you) do with your yards, spray chemicals, kill every living thing that is not grass, do you have a nice sized back yard that is a garden for critters of the air, land, and soil. Do you watch honey bees on your herbs, inside your okra blossoms, and on and on.

    I, like a lot of people, have accepted the doors and gates of life permitted us by those who believe money makes the world go around (and they want yours).

    So, house in the suburbs, now a metroplex, malibu that gets 23-26 to 30-36 highway - better than all our prior econoboxes. And an H3 to enjoy for our tired old bodies. Just wanted a prebuilt H3 for a suburban getter with a little better highway mileage. I bet cruising at 55mph in our three will easily be above 20mpg, how much don't know-but at 42 mph with the torque converter locked up in fourth gear the engine is just about twice plus idle-which is probably max mpg's. That's what is bad with 4.56 gears when you don't crawl rocks.

    Our H3 is a keeper. And like I told the hosts when we went from the CRD to the H3, maybe someday better_half will let me turn it into our beater. Better yet, would gladly pick up a steal from someone's trade-in.

    No offense, no agenda, have admitted being in RVN '66 '67, a blue person in a red state. Have posted Peace on Earth - No more war, and have wished the Hosts a Happy Thanksgiving. Posted late last summer that we have spent our treasury. America, anybody can think and believe or not believe anyway they wish or can they.
  • smu1976smu1976 Posts: 110
    H2 is one fine ride, drove one for 6 days on Hertz points in Colorado in March
    If you have not driven one, don't rip, the vehicle is the smoothest truck I have ever rode in. The wheels are way pushed out to the ends (not an Avalanche).
    The seats are like lazy boys with heaters for back and butt.
    Every option, sits seven people.
    Waiting for gas to hit $4.00 a gallon, then the American classic panic, then get a 2007 with less than 10k miles. Hummer has the best certified warranty PERIOD.
    6 years 100K, same as new, 4 years 50K when new. No repairs out of pocket, I like that. I drive 5-7K miles a year, haul a trailer, like the size, suburban are dressed up one doesn't fit in garage. Wish you could switch to 2 wheel drive for highway, get that mileage over 15 on highway. These people getting 9 are flooring this 350 way to much. City yes, highway no. Now for the Green Crowd, Hummer H2 has over a dozen vehicles that pollute more, including VW diesel SUV and two Mercedes SUV's (smaller and can't pull as much and diesel fuel is more expensive in the States. Then all the sports cars, two seaters, Vettes, Vipers, Mustangs with 400-600 hp? Then the hollywood Prius, whose LEAD battery which Toyota buys 100 tons of annually has caused more damage in England at the plant that the United States uses the area (barren for 100 miles of any life) for space landing practice. Remember, birth to death of a vehicle is pollution, not just your daily gas mileage (how we are so easily mislead, pounds and pounds of LEAD?) Get a cheap 4 cylinder no lead batteries (so you show your saving the earth from our little spot in the globe here in the USA). Scion, Honda Fit, then your doing good and saving about 7-10 grand over your LEAD car. Electric (coal makes electricity, most polluting thing out there except the number one polluter of the globe, COW FARTS). Smart Car, looks good, like to see some safety results from the Government, not the manufacturer. Hummer H2, got to get one for the farm, get 10 years out of it., 5 of them bumper to bumper covered. :shades:
  • aspesisteveaspesisteve Posts: 833
    "H2 is one fine ride, drove one for 6 days on Hertz points in Colorado in March
    If you have not driven one, don't rip, the vehicle is the smoothest truck I have ever rode in"

    i don't think anyone ripping on the H2 is complaining about the comfort or smoothnest of the truck, it has more to do with size. I don't need to drive the beast to understand the footprint of this vehicle.

    fortunately sales of the H2 are so down that GM will likely put the kabosh on it.
    you'll have no problem picking up a used one real cheap.
  • smu1976smu1976 Posts: 110
    The footprint is quite small for towing 8000l bs? Do you know of any vehicle with smaller length or width that can pull this weight. This is nearly 20 inches less in length than my Suburban, and 1.8 inches wider. Funny the "hate" for SUV's, but a new 500 HP Mustang is all the rage.
    As far as what GM does with Hummer, the topic here, one, American General still makes them, yes even the H2. I would say they will go back to the military market only as their other AM General vehicles have done numerous times over history (JEEP). Try to find a 63 civilian Jeep? American Motors sold Jeep to Chrysler and American General Military division went to GM.
    Time to stick a hole in Alaska and tap that 20 year supply, sacrifice an owl or a few Caribou one before we loose to many Human lives and further bankrupting companie and households. Also Ethanal, or "fill it up with Ethyl in my day" (just alcohol from corn, has shown that the extra pesticides and run off has a high price to pay also). Quite frankly, there is no free energy or fuel, the price of gas will stabilize in the high 3 buck range. The U.S. at least should bluff that they are going to drill to shake the market. Think of the deals cut and price guarantees from Mexico and Canada, if you don't cut us off for 20 years? They would be at the table for lunch tomorrow. "Hybrids are the answer", and for MPG alone, they are, but for polluting our globe you have to take birth to death of an object or vehicle. Lead batteries are absolutely polluting the earth more with a Prius than a Hummer ever will (I do think Toyota make a fine car and truck too), electricity comes from coal, the most unclean source of power there is, so what is the answer? I don't know. Drive conservatively, don't waste trips, carpool if available. I drive between 7-8K a year, so a 12 month old Hummer will last me with bumper to bumper warranty until 2012-13, which are now buy it now on ebay for about the high thirties, 20 less than MSRP. I'll spend 11K over the next 5 years on gas at 12 mpg, Add in zero repair cost except wear and tear being a certified vehicle. Can't tow two horses with a Prius or anything hybrid, this is for the city folk and I can understand the distain for a Hummer or calling it a beast with anger in your words son, for one of these with 22 inch chrome wheels that are just for show, but arguably, the Prius is just the same, one trying to brag about being "green", maybe with some training in acting and the theatre, but nothing in engineering department. Toyota buys 100 tons of lead in England and there is not a plant or animal now within 100 miles of the facility, 14 years ago it was lush green. The U.S. now uses part of the land for space vehicle practicing site, for it is so barren, yet not sandy.
  • "Toyota buys 100 tons of lead in England and there is not a plant or animal now within 100 miles of the facility, 14 years ago it was lush green. The U.S. now uses part of the land for space vehicle practicing site, for it is so barren, yet not sandy."

    Again with lead and nasa, do you mean 'bury' instead of buy?

    Sat in 2's at the dealership, never rode in one. Maybe should rent one and enjoy it while one can.

    No one posted about South Africa or Australia. Another forum linked the 06/05/08 story from the UK about "...TATA. Mahindra..".

    Why concentrate on H3's, labor health negotiations cost reductions at the general, worked in factories (even piece rate and understand time rolling), on tv shots of auto factories never seem to see anybody sweating their butts off to keep up with line speed. Knew people decades ago that worked at Lordstown and a ford location. Agree that tired old bodies can be worn out, but also believe Edmunds about inconsisitent build quality. Parts suppliers, quality control, and bean counters. But, why do H3's have to get the left side of the vehicles fixed after purchase to match the right side. Blue Beauty is still the way she left the factory -assume the torsion bars and rear springs could be adjusted, but don't care, runs good and tires are running true). One trip to dealership for that plastic push pin for the leather seat cover and soon to be two years of ownership. Other issues have been posted elsewhere.

    If we had a true triangular business, (and what about our founding fathers triangular government-which we no longer have) business would build a vehicle with people paying msrp to buy; dealers, factories, and unions were friendly; and here's a rub - union forman and concerned union employees would have "talks" with problematic employees/members if build issues showed up (shouldn't be any more of the old line games and purposeful vandalism). Unions would be respected to keep problems from being passed on to the public. A true interdependent system of safeguards.

    That's why TATA and due diligence, build it and they will come. Lots of people want that old jeep with flat metal fenders. Renegotiate with the new employees/workers on the modern automated lines and build it good. Not waiting for a DI V6 - once read on the oil forum (true?) about fuel dilution of the oil on some UOA's. The old 200hp v6 in our '04 malibu is just fine (but not trouble free) and returns good performance and mpg.

    Distribution, part of the buy out would be a deal to use Hummer's current GM dealership locations - no need to build a marketing system. Just cut out all the bs and get back to the idea of work and quality...

    Is it as the general states, the sheets on the bed with big oil are going to be split. Ideally, this day should never have been, but it's the cards from their deck that were dealt to us. Is all this moot, and city life and electric people movers are here, and if so how soon for complete transition. Shut down all the plants but people movers right now. Dig up all the malls, build medium sized cities on non-arable land and farm the rest.
  • Just saw a post at a hummer forum with a link to fast lane statement about the Hummer brand and world wide acceptance in places with higher fuel costs. Should've seen it before my last post, but the post is valid as posted.
  • aspesisteveaspesisteve Posts: 833
    i don't see people towing 8,000 lbs with their Hummer

    that's probably why the vehicle is going to be taken out to pasture and shot

    If the car is as great as you think it is, then why hasn't it done well?
    Why is GM looking for a buyer of the Hummer?
  • Someone at a hummer forum (an insider or rumor at a party) posted that Tata offered to buy Jeep-$17B, really? And Rick at Petersen's 4WOR posted in his comment about the 2007 rubicon 4x4 of the year wrap up that it was his favorite real 4x4, even with that minivan v6. (Just got the issue in yesterday's mail and skimmed it late last night). And someone posted a picture of the H3T on Sewell's showroom floor in Dallas. And saw the link (here?) about the new Dodge, Ford, and General 2009 update on their trucks. It seems the general will be offering a 3.42 rear.

    Maybe we don't need another premium vehicle if the competition is heating up. But, there is always a make your own - 4 tires or 4 legs, depending on where you live.
  • smu1976smu1976 Posts: 110
    Read, I said it has a need.

    One, where do you live? Here, we use trucks quite a bit. Have you ever seen a horse trailer with two horses in back, there is your 8000 lbs junior, 3000 on the trailer, 2 a piece on the horses (see kentucky derby, horsetracks, the midwest, horses for rehab therapy etc.), many can haul, with poorer MPG, diesels, duallies, but two to four people is all you can fit legally.

    10 years is a pretty good run on any vehicle? Profit, one of the better trucks in GM's history (Escalade the best of course, take a suburban bling it out, you probably see those where you live eh?, high profit there) but 22 inches longer and the division American General is still quite profitable for GM with the H1 military sales (you don't see to may Jeeps anymore, remember the HEMI Jeep puts out more carbon than the H2 and with the low profile tires, can't take a gravel road). How much longer is a Hummer H2 than a Prius? Less than 15 inches. The point of the post is this, its a good value, because if you have a need (I don't worry how many I see), prices are low, and few understand the towing power of such a small vehicle in comparison to a Suburban, Alvanche or Tundra coupled with seating 7 people? 4 years ago you would pay 55K up, now at high 30's to low 40s its a good deal. Its your money though, spend it what you want and please let me do the same. Trucks will always hold their value better than cars, GM said the H2 is being made until 2010, but I didn't post for a 2010, it was a 06-08, in addition, the Hummer H2 gives you 50K miles or 4 years bumper to bumper warranty, the best of all the above mentioned, Certified 07/08 6 years 100k bumper to bumper. Again, the best. Thats 2013 for a warranty for a vehicle under 40K, that meets my need of only driving 5-7k a year perfectly, sitting seven and pulling 8000lbs

    Whats your choice for a truck or you just here hummer bashing? Or no comment on the Hummer forum for you? Or if you can give me another truck that can do the same since your very knowledgable, please name it, maybe I will buy it, but I can't find one that fits in my garage and is 222 inches long and burns as much gas.
  • aspesisteveaspesisteve Posts: 833
    smu,

    I live in the San Jose, Ca area. The Hummers I see here are usually droping the kids off at school or picking up groceries. I won't knock a Hummer owner who manages to use it's strengths, but for the majority of SUV owners, they seem to be buying a "car" that is equipted to do everything even if they drive the kids to soccer practice 99% of the time.

    I'm in the trades and drive an F150. It too can tow 9000 lbs but I rarely tow more than a couple thousand - so I guess you could say I'm guilty of overload - but I do fill the back up with tools, lumber or debree at least a few times per month.

    There will always be a need for big trucks out there, but with gas approaching $5.00 per gallon (in Ca), the days of the soccer mom driving a Hummer are numbered.
  • mac24mac24 Posts: 3,910
    ..........and the division American General is still quite profitable for GM with the H1 military sales

    Ok, a little clarification required here. American General (AMG) is an independent company and always has been. AMG has always built a variety of vehicles for the military, both large and small, and is probably most well known for manufacturing the HMMWV, often called a Humvee.

    In 1999 GM bought the 'Hummer' name, together with the marketing rights to the civilian version of the HMMWV that AMG was building and selling as the HUMMER.
    GM renamed the HUMMER to H1 and appointed a select number of its dealerships to sell and service it. AMG continued to build the vehicle.

    In 2003 GM launched the H2 under the Hummer name and contracted AMG to build it for them, which they still do today. The H3 has no connection to AMG at all.

    The final version of the H1 (the Duramax engined 'Alpha'), ceased production in June '06. AMG continue to produce the HMWWV along with other military vehicles, and produce prototypes for possible future military use.

    Other than as a contractor, AMG has little connection to GM. The sale of the military vehicles it manufactures provides no profit to GM.

    Whatever GM does with the Hummer brand it won't affect AMG, or the production of HMMWVs or our national security, as I've seen suggested elsewhere.
  • "Whatever GM does with the Hummer brand it won't affect AMG, or the production of HMMWVs or our national security, as I've seen suggested elsewhere. "

    What national security. National Securty is being intouch with humanity-all I want to do is grow some rice and hope my children have a better life than me. Forget the movie heroes who didnt serve at monte cassino or didnt harass old women and children in asia. we are one. we want a better world for our children. please this is not an agricultural world where women have to produce to keep the viable. This is about Hummer. The world is changing. If tata and mahindra dont want hummer, why snuggle up to other growing economies, make hummer affordable(gearing, smaller engines?)

    Keep shreveport alive, fix the twins? ... don't serve! We need vehicles that don't need roads. but

    better_half says I have done this before and she apologized to the hosts.

    If this is true than give me a chicom jeep or an indian jeep or indian hummer.
  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Posts: 2,039
    What a joke of a vehicle for urban travel. The Hummer brand opitimizes excess. I have driven the vehicle and know first hand what they have to offer.

    Cheapness. The interior looks like a bomb went off at the plastic factory. Gas mileage that is atrocious. Resale value that is atrocious. The brand was built for military use, leave it at that.

    There is no real "need" for a vehicle like this and it is obvious that the American public agrees. May Hummer RIP.

    -moo
  • smu1976smu1976 Posts: 110
    AM General still makes the H2, read the metal tag inside the 2008 door, it is not made my GM next to the Tahoe. For all you SUV bashers who want to save the earth, I suggest WIRED Magazine, page 163, June 2008 issue. Pound for Pound, making a Prius contributes more carbon to the atmosphere than making a Hummer, largely due to the environmental cost of the 30 pounds of nickel in the hybrid's battery. Now the hybrid will erase that deficit on the road, but it will take some years, then you have a 30 lb nickel/lead battery to put out in the trash? A Prius puts out about 113,000 Btus, so it's blown out the pollution of 1000 gallons of gas before the first mile on the road. So the Hollywood Stars arriving on the Red Carpet (flew in on their personal jet), please, read some engineers reports, not marketing and look at me being green crap. Get a Toyota Tercel, there you will save some carbon and about 10-12K to look cool and green. Also, cars won't make a dent, Nuclear is the only answer, electric cars (run on burning coal which produce 26% of the earths 9% of the United States). We, the U.S. mad a big mistake in stopping the cleanest, most climate friendly source of power. But remember, take a trip around the world and see some country's that are so poor that chemicals that have been banned for 40 years here are dumped in the air and oceans on a daily basis. Don't get your shorts bound up on a truck though.
    Going to take 18 wheelers off the road, ships, planes? All blow a tad more out than a couple hundred Hummers on a few trips. Funny how we focus on such a little thing and think we are the world saving the rock but expressing anger our some cat driving a truck. Forget the 500-600 HP mustangs, corvettes, challengers and muscle car return which are selling like crazy, go for the truck.
    I don't own one, but my best buddy at Boeing laughs his [non-permissible content removed] off at this, one F15, soon to be manless, blows more out atmosphere pollutants than fleets. The Hummers are being bought up by who? The middle east, look at the Ebay ads saying they will ship. Guess when they are over there, we are all sitting in our Tercel's like a pretzel, the earth will be clean, cause gas is cheap there and that makes it all good cause that is a different rock?
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,004
    People are wondering whether it's wise to buy one (an H3 Alpha in this case) if the brand is going to be orphaned:

    Is Hummer NOT a wise purchase anymore?

    Moderator
    Need help navigating? stever@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Posts: 2,039
    You've offered a very strange argument. Am I to read correctly that you think buying a Hummer is a wise decision?

    I think you've wandered way off topic. We're not discussing what is the worst for the environment, we're discussing what a waste the Hummer is. Trains, planes, ships and 18 wheelers all serve a larger purpose. The Hummer is just a giant piece of crap that is wasteful. There is no "need" for one. There is a "need" for the transportation of goods and commodities.

    The marketplace reflects that. When a manufacturer is dumping a whole line, then the people have obviously spoken. SUV's are on a decline because gas prices have skyrocketed. They don't make as much sense anymore.

    My personal feelings regarding the Hummer are the way they are because I see the Hummer as the epitome of waste. Is it the most wasteful thing on the earth? Probably not, but what a joke of a vehicle for people to drive. There are tons of options to haul people with better space, gas mileage, visibility, reliability, resale, etc.

    That's my take.

    -moo
  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,110
    we're discussing what a waste the Hummer is

    Not exactly. We're discussing what GM should do with Hummer.

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Posts: 2,039
    Isn't that the reason that GM is dumping Hummer? Wasteful product? No more profit because the clientele has turned their backs on it?

    -moo
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