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Sunroof leak on my Saturn Outlook

191012141517

Comments

  • nancy1960nancy1960 Posts: 54
    Domp, If you look up your VIN # it will indicate if you had these bulletins done. Here's the issue; GM made the public aware of these problems and put service bulletins out to fix the problems, extent the drain tubes etc. The repairs failed and problems they were hoping to fix happened. It's helpful to look back on previous post to get really informed before talking to GM. Stay strong!! Complaints can also be made to BBB and NTSHA as well.
  • nancy1960nancy1960 Posts: 54
    OH MY GOODNESS!! THIS IS A MUST READ ON SECRET WARRANTIES!
    READ, READ, READ....

    Secret warranties are a multi-billion consumer abuse. Every auto company makes mistakes in building cars. Whether they are design defects that affect every car or whether they are manufacturing defects which affect only some cars, they must be repaired. The only question is who pays for the manufacturers' mistakes, the manufacturer or the consumer. Although the auto manufacturer often establishes a secret warranty to pay for the repair, all too often it is the consumer who pays for the manufacturer's mistake because the consumer never finds out about the secret warranty. That's wrong and the Center for Auto Safety wants to change it.

    In a 1987 report the Center for Auto Safety (CAS) created national headlines by identifying 10 exemplary secret warranties covering 30 million vehicles and $3 billion in repair costs. Yet this is but the tip of the iceberg for we estimate that at any one time over 500 secret warranties exist for all auto companies. According to a Toyota whistleblower who provided a complete list in May 1988, Toyota alone had 41 secret warranties at that time.

    By exposing secret warranties, CAS forces manufacturers to pay for their mistakes and creates a strong incentive for them to build better cars in the future. once secret warranties are disclosed, consumers will save hundreds, if not thousands, in repair bills on their personal cars. Spurred on by CAS exposes, state legislatures are moving to pass secret warranty disclosure laws that will protect consumers. Until then, consumers must rely on the strategies suggested in our book, Little Secrets of the Auto Industry, to discover and use secret warranties to pay for repairs in their vehicles.

    What is a secret warranty?
    Auto companies hate the term secret warranties. They call them policy adjustments, good will programs, service campaigns or extended warranties . But whatever they are called, they are a longstanding industry practice. When a car company has a major defect that occurs after its written warranty expires, it establishes an adjustment policy to pay for repairs rather than deal with many thousands, if not millions, of complaints on a case by case basis. But the auto company communicates the policy only to regional offices and not even always to its dealers. The auto manufacturers never notify the consumer; so only the consumer who complains loudly enough gets covered by the secret warranty. Other consumers end up bearing the costs of the manufacturer's mistakes.

    Examples of Secret Warranties
    CAS has documented case after case of secret warranties since our founding in 1970. one of the first and most famous was Ford's J-67 Limited Service Program which covered rust on 12 million 1969-72 cars and trucks. In this case a bulletin which went out only to Ford regional offices stated, "This is a limited service program without dealership notification and should be administered on an individual complaint basis." Under this program, Ford would pay up to 100% to repair rust and paint damage on its vehicles even if it cost over a $1000.

    CAS has uncovered secret warranties on all auto companies with little differences between them. A 1972 Mazda secret warranty bulletin doubled the coverage for rotary engine damage but cautioned, "Since this is a temporary program which may be terminated at [any] time, owners are not to be informed of the extended coverage." Honda had secret warranties on head gaskets and rusting fenders in the mid-1970's; Chrysler had rusting fenders on Volares and Aspens in the late 1970's; GM had the transmission secret warranty caused by a ban on sperm whale oil as a lubricant; Peugeot and Subaru both covered defective head gaskets; and VW covered valve stem seals.

    Secret warranties soared after 1980 when the federal government dropped all efforts to ban them. GM had a 5 year/50,000 mile secret warranty covering repair of defective rack and pinion power steering systems on all 16 million of its 1981-88 front wheel drive cars. Toyota covered pulsating brakes on its 1983-86 Camry in a $100 million secret warranty. Ford never told owners of its 1985-92 F-series pickups that America's most popular truck had peeling paint because Ford skipped the primer layer. According to Nissan documents provided to CAS by a whistleblower in 1990, Nissan had at one time up to 48 secret warranties covering various cars and trucks.

    There is no doubt that auto manufacturers presently have many other secret warranties. However, assessing how widespread secret warranty programs are is difficult because these programs, by definition, are not intended for public disclosure. Since CAS began exposing secret warranties more widely in the 1980's, the auto makers having gotten better at keeping them secret. Even CAS can no longer get lists of secret warranties to disclose. one Honda insider told CAS that Honda has only one secret warranty book for each of its regions. The book is chained to a desk. Every page has the region's number superimposed on it so that any photo of a book page would show the region from which it came.

    But it is known that the regulatory climate has been very favorable to the automakers since 1980. Furthermore, secret warranties are viewed by the automakers as an effective tool to maintain good customer relations. Loyal customers and customers that complain loudly and persistently are rewarded. Other consumers get saddled with repair costs caused by the manufacturers' mistakes.

    No Uniform Law Requires Secret Warranty Disclosure
    No federal law requires auto companies to disclose secret warranties. In the late 1970's, the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) sought to litigate individual secret warranties against each auto company beginning with piston scuffing and cracked blocks in 1976-78 Fords. The FTC settled its case by requiring Ford to notify and directly compensate owners according to the secret warranty policy and to notify all future owners until the consent agreement expired eight years later in 1988. Although the FTC later filed similar complaints and actions against GM, VW, Honda, and Chrysler in the late 1970's, it dropped the requirement of secret warranty notification. In 1981 after the change of Administrations, the Commission completely dropped its efforts to expose secret warranties.

    Where a secret warranty exists, consumers could ban together to file a class action against the manufacturer for an unfair trade practice but this is a major effort which is rarely used and is a poor substitute for a disclosure law. In 1989, CAS helped the Center for Public Interest Law successfully sue Toyota over a secret warranty that covered up to $1800 in repair costs for pulsating brakes in over 400,000 1983-87 Camrys. To settle CAS' class action Toyota agreed to 1) notify all present and past owners, 2) reimburse consumers for all repair expenses already incurred, and repair all ca
  • nancy1960nancy1960 Posts: 54
    OH MY GOODNESS!! THIS IS A MUST READ ON SECRET WARRANTIES!
    READ, READ, READ....

    Secret warranties are a multi-billion consumer abuse. Every auto company makes mistakes in building cars. Whether they are design defects that affect every car or whether they are manufacturing defects which affect only some cars, they must be repaired. The only question is who pays for the manufacturers' mistakes, the manufacturer or the consumer. Although the auto manufacturer often establishes a secret warranty to pay for the repair, all too often it is the consumer who pays for the manufacturer's mistake because the consumer never finds out about the secret warranty. That's wrong and the Center for Auto Safety wants to change it.

    In a 1987 report the Center for Auto Safety (CAS) created national headlines by identifying 10 exemplary secret warranties covering 30 million vehicles and $3 billion in repair costs. Yet this is but the tip of the iceberg for we estimate that at any one time over 500 secret warranties exist for all auto companies. According to a Toyota whistleblower who provided a complete list in May 1988, Toyota alone had 41 secret warranties at that time.

    By exposing secret warranties, CAS forces manufacturers to pay for their mistakes and creates a strong incentive for them to build better cars in the future. once secret warranties are disclosed, consumers will save hundreds, if not thousands, in repair bills on their personal cars. Spurred on by CAS exposes, state legislatures are moving to pass secret warranty disclosure laws that will protect consumers. Until then, consumers must rely on the strategies suggested in our book, Little Secrets of the Auto Industry, to discover and use secret warranties to pay for repairs in their vehicles.

    What is a secret warranty?
    Auto companies hate the term secret warranties. They call them policy adjustments, good will programs, service campaigns or extended warranties . But whatever they are called, they are a longstanding industry practice. When a car company has a major defect that occurs after its written warranty expires, it establishes an adjustment policy to pay for repairs rather than deal with many thousands, if not millions, of complaints on a case by case basis. But the auto company communicates the policy only to regional offices and not even always to its dealers. The auto manufacturers never notify the consumer; so only the consumer who complains loudly enough gets covered by the secret warranty. Other consumers end up bearing the costs of the manufacturer's mistakes.

    Examples of Secret Warranties
    CAS has documented case after case of secret warranties since our founding in 1970. one of the first and most famous was Ford's J-67 Limited Service Program which covered rust on 12 million 1969-72 cars and trucks. In this case a bulletin which went out only to Ford regional offices stated, "This is a limited service program without dealership notification and should be administered on an individual complaint basis." Under this program, Ford would pay up to 100% to repair rust and paint damage on its vehicles even if it cost over a $1000.

    CAS has uncovered secret warranties on all auto companies with little differences between them. A 1972 Mazda secret warranty bulletin doubled the coverage for rotary engine damage but cautioned, "Since this is a temporary program which may be terminated at [any] time, owners are not to be informed of the extended coverage." Honda had secret warranties on head gaskets and rusting fenders in the mid-1970's; Chrysler had rusting fenders on Volares and Aspens in the late 1970's; GM had the transmission secret warranty caused by a ban on sperm whale oil as a lubricant; Peugeot and Subaru both covered defective head gaskets; and VW covered valve stem seals.

    Secret warranties soared after 1980 when the federal government dropped all efforts to ban them. GM had a 5 year/50,000 mile secret warranty covering repair of defective rack and pinion power steering systems on all 16 million of its 1981-88 front wheel drive cars. Toyota covered pulsating brakes on its 1983-86 Camry in a $100 million secret warranty. Ford never told owners of its 1985-92 F-series pickups that America's most popular truck had peeling paint because Ford skipped the primer layer. According to Nissan documents provided to CAS by a whistleblower in 1990, Nissan had at one time up to 48 secret warranties covering various cars and trucks.

    There is no doubt that auto manufacturers presently have many other secret warranties. However, assessing how widespread secret warranty programs are is difficult because these programs, by definition, are not intended for public disclosure. Since CAS began exposing secret warranties more widely in the 1980's, the auto makers having gotten better at keeping them secret. Even CAS can no longer get lists of secret warranties to disclose. one Honda insider told CAS that Honda has only one secret warranty book for each of its regions. The book is chained to a desk. Every page has the region's number superimposed on it so that any photo of a book page would show the region from which it came.

    But it is known that the regulatory climate has been very favorable to the automakers since 1980. Furthermore, secret warranties are viewed by the automakers as an effective tool to maintain good customer relations. Loyal customers and customers that complain loudly and persistently are rewarded. Other consumers get saddled with repair costs caused by the manufacturers' mistakes.

    No Uniform Law Requires Secret Warranty Disclosure
    No federal law requires auto companies to disclose secret warranties. In the late 1970's, the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) sought to litigate individual secret warranties against each auto company beginning with piston scuffing and cracked blocks in 1976-78 Fords. The FTC settled its case by requiring Ford to notify and directly compensate owners according to the secret warranty policy and to notify all future owners until the consent agreement expired eight years later in 1988. Although the FTC later filed similar complaints and actions against GM, VW, Honda, and Chrysler in the late 1970's, it dropped the requirement of secret warranty notification. In 1981 after the change of Administrations, the Commission completely dropped its efforts to expose secret warranties.

    Where a secret warranty exists, consumers could ban together to file a class action against the manufacturer for an unfair trade practice but this is a major effort which is rarely used and is a poor substitute for a disclosure law. In 1989, CAS helped the Center for Public Interest Law successfully sue Toyota over a secret warranty that covered up to $1800 in repair costs for pulsating brakes in over 400,000 1983-87 Camrys. To settle CAS' class action Toyota agreed to 1) notify all present and past owners, 2) reimburse consumers for all repair expenses already incurred, and repair all ca
  • nancy1960nancy1960 Posts: 54
    Con't of Secret Warranty:

    Where a secret warranty exists, consumers could ban together to file a class action against the manufacturer for an unfair trade practice but this is a major effort which is rarely used and is a poor substitute for a disclosure law. In 1989, CAS helped the Center for Public Interest Law successfully sue Toyota over a secret warranty that covered up to $1800 in repair costs for pulsating brakes in over 400,000 1983-87 Camrys. To settle CAS' class action Toyota agreed to 1) notify all present and past owners, 2) reimburse consumers for all repair expenses already incurred, and repair all cars with this defect that had not yet been repaired. CAS estimates the total cost to Toyota to be over $100 million, most of which would have been borne by consumers but for CAS' action.

    State Secret Warranty Laws
    In order to protect consumers from undisclosed defects, five states (California, Connecticut, Maryland, Virginia, and Wisconsin) have enacted secret warranty laws and other states are considering secret warranty legislation. The state secret warranty laws already enacted require manufacturers to disclose their "warranty adjustment" programs by giving direct notice of any warranty extension to affected owners, including information about the terms of the warranty, and provision for reimbursement to consumers who already have paid for the covered repair. Until all states enact and enforce secret warranty laws, consumers will be kept in the dark about secret warranties.

    How to Find a Secret Warranty
    Until secret warranty disclosure laws become the law of the land, the only way to find out about secret warranties is just plain hard work. First, one checks the technical service bulletins for your vehicle type and model year. Service bulletins are published by the manufacturer and sent to dealerships to assist them in diagnosing and repairing problems on the vehicles they service. The existence of a service bulletin does not conclusively prove the auto company has a secret warranty but it does show a defect or problem exists for which the manufacturer has had to develop a repair. Service bulletins can be difficult to decipher, but it is well worth the effort. Finding the right bulletin could save you thousands of dollars in repair costs. The right bulletin is the one that tells the dealer how to diagnose and fix the problem. It also will authorize the dealer to make the repairs at the manufacturer's expense even though the defect is no longer covered by the manufacturer's express warranty.

    The trouble is that manufacturers often do not put the terms authorizing free repair in the technical service bulletins but give this information only to their factory representatives so that both the dealer and consumer are kept in the dark. Watch for code words in bulletins such as "check for availability of good will assistance." Companies often use such language to get around the triggering requirements for customer notification in states that have secret warranty disclosure laws.

    Secret warranties are often revealed when owners of vehicles of the same type and age are treated differently by the dealer or manufacturer. If some owners get their vehicles repaired at no cost or at a discount whereas other owners of the same vehicle do not, it is possible that a secret warranty covers the defect involved. However, it is also possible that the dealer or manufacturer has decided on a case-by-case basis to reimburse a relatively small number of owners to retain their goodwill and not as part of a warranty adjustment program. To constitute a secret warranty, the difference in treatment of customers must be based on a corporate policy to reimburse owners that is communicated to regional offices and usually also to dealers but that is not communicated to consumers.

    How to Use a Secret Warranty
    After determining that your vehicle is covered by a secret warranty, the next step is to take advantage of your knowledge. The best way to do this is to take the service bulletin that proves the existence of the secret warranty with you when you go to your dealer to get the defect repaired. Without the bulletin, you will have a much more difficult time getting the dealer to repair your vehicle free of charge. Even if the dealer refuses to recognize the existence of the secret warranty [he might not know that the secret warranty exists] or if your vehicle is beyond the period of coverage of the secret warranty, he still may repair your vehicle at no expense as part of a goodwill adjustment.

    If the dealer claims your vehicle is not covered by a secret warranty and refuses to give you a goodwill adjustment, your next step is to pursue your claim directly with the manufacturer. You should do this for two reasons. First, unlike dealers, the manufacturer will know always know if a certain defect in one of its own vehicles is covered by a secret warranty. Second, every manufacturer has a system to handle consumer complaints, which should be followed even though it may not work in most cases. Complaint handling mechanisms outside the manufacturer's system (e.g. arbitration) require exhaustion of all remedies that the manufacturer provides.

    Contact the manufacturer's division (also called regional, district or zone) office in your area. The locations and correct names of district offices and the complaint procedures are often spelled out in the owner's manual. If the manufacturer's representative refuses to see you, contact the regional office or the manufacturer's owner relations office, often located in Detroit for domestic manufacturers, California for Japanese and Asian manufacturers, and New Jersey for European manufacturers.

    If the manufacturer refuses to extend the secret warranty to your vehicle (perhaps because your car is beyond the time or mileage requirements of the secret warranty), do not give up. Manufacturers only reimburse those owners who complain loudly and persistently; those who put off complaining, or who never complain at all, must pay for the manufacturer's mistakes.

    The next step is to make enough noise outside the manufacturer's complaint handling system to get results. A strong commitment is necessary to successfully use this procedure, because you will not get results unless you are willing to persistently follow up letters and phone calls.

    Complain in writing to the manufacturer's Chairman of the Board or President with copies of that letter to others. Set forth the defect covered by the secret warranty clearly and precisely within the letter and refer to the collected documentation of the car's troubles and your attempts to have the car repaired "within the system."

    Send copies to various organizations such as local and national consumer groups, local and state consumer protection agencies, state attorneys general, federal agencies and members of Congress. Even if these agencies or groups cannot act directly on your behalf, the
  • nancy1960nancy1960 Posts: 54
    ANOTHER MUST READ:

    CBS did a story on "Secret Warranties" in 2011
    Uncovering Secret Warranties on Cars
    By Jerry Edgerton

    Imagine you're a car maker who wants to defuse a potential bombshell. You just learned about a nasty defect in one of your models. How do you reckon with the trouble without the toxic publicity of a recall? You might whisper to dealers that it's fine for them to quietly provide free fixes to owners who complain. That's how Toyota kept the lid on its sudden acceleration risks as early as '02 Camrys, according to investigative firm Safety Research and Strategies
    Almost all carmakers use "secret warranties." You, too, may be able to get persistent flaws in your car fixed free even if your warranty has expired --provided you can track down other complaints and negotiate shrewdly with your dealer.

    Finding out if your vehicle is covered by hush-hush arrangements can be tricky, say advocates at the Center for Auto Safety (CAS), who originally discovered and named secret warranties in the early '70s. "Manufacturers increasingly have worked hard to keep secret warranties secret," says executive director Clarence M. Ditlow III.

    The CAS estimates about 500 secret warranties are in force at any time and says the number has grown over the past decade since regulators often haven't demanded full safety recalls.

    Your job finding out about secret warranties may be a little easier if you live in California, Connecticut, Maryland, Virginia or Wisconsin, which require owner notification of them.

    If your car has a chronic problem that seems dangerous, here's how to crack the codes of secret warranties and get what you deserve:

    Start with the government
    Check the web site of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA). Go to the Defects and Recalls section and search three sections: defect investigations, complaints and technical service bulletins.

    Defect Investigations. Check to see if problems like yours triggered a NHTSA investigation. If one is underway, it may strengthen your case for a free repair. But if (as in the case of Toyota unintended acceleration for '02 Camrys) NHTSA closed the investigation without ordering any action, it undermines your argument.

    Complaints. In the Search Complaints section, see if other owners raised your problem and if they took their cars to the dealership. Be especially alert for a notation that the dealer repaired the car at no charge and show it to your dealer.

    Technical service bulletins. NHTSA puts summaries of these safety-related documents on its site, but getting full versions takes several weeks or longer. If evidence from investigations or owner complaints make it likely that your car company has detailed fixes for the problem, buy a full set of bulletins at the Alldata consumer web site for $26.95.

    Getting a Free Repair
    Take printouts bolstering your case to the dealership."If you have done your research and have the documents, you should be in a stronger bargaining position," says Sean Kane, whose Safety Research and Strategies does general auto safety research and also works with plaintiffs' attorneys. But you're not assured of a free repair. You could get a discounted fix or be asked to pay full price.

    You have a better chance of a free repair if you are a regular customer of the dealer or have:

    A car under original warranty.

    A technical service bulletin that mentions "goodwill assistance" or "goodwill adjustment." That's manufacturer's code for a secret warranty.

    A bushel of NHTSA complaints for the same problem, especially if one mentions a free fix by a dealer.

    If you get no satisfaction from the dealer, call the manufacturer's regional office, often listed in the owner's manual, and repeat your case. If you're still rebuffed, write complaints to top executives at headquarters.

    Remember, it's the squeaky wheel that gets the grease.
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,158
    edited April 2012
    More right here at Edmunds (first published in 2000 and updated since then):

    The Secret Warranty

    The main takeaway is that you need to be the original owner and have shown loyalty to the brand by paying dealer prices for regular maintenance. Even then it's a bit of a crap shoot.

    Moderator
    Need help navigating? stever@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

  • worried17worried17 Posts: 6
    Finally got GM to let us take our car in to get looked at - come to find out - GEE - IT IS LEAKING -this will be the FOURTH time this damn car has been brought in for leaking water all from the sunroof. My husband and I were flabbergasted with their response - they stated that the drain tubes in the sunroof were clogged and it was causing the leaks and that we would have to pay $300 to have them unclogged - WTF! When my husband asked them why they would be clogged -we have NO trees around us, the car sits in the open, there is NO way for stuff to get into a sunroof that is SEALED and we barely ever use the sunroof and they replied that it is part of the "regular maintenance" we are supposed to do on the car. WHAT???? I have NEVER EVER had ANY dealer tell me that you must perform regular maintenance of having drain tubes checked on a sunroof....NEVER and both my husband and I have always owned cars with sunroofs. He then said it is in the handbook somewhere - so we went through the entire handbook - NOPE - NOT there! I am FLOORED.....we were told at the last fix that the drains were clogged (AND NO, NO ONE said anything that we were supposed to be doing "routine" maintenance on the drain tubes) because the drains have been found to not be long enough to handle it when it rained so they did the recall of extending our drains and that would take care of any issues with them getting clogged. OF COURSE they couldn't get any of the electrical issues to present themselves -what a coincidence....so are they calling me LIAR????? all FOUR car windows have intermittent problems where they will not go up or down, the rear hatch has intermittent problems of NOT opening or closing both through the key fob and when you push on the button on the back gate, the car DVD/Stereo system that I paid a FORTUNE FOR as an upgrade stays black or does not work intermittently, the car DID NOT TURN OFF after taking the key out of the ignition...THESE ARE ALL ELECTRICAL PROBLEMS...and gee, my car is leaking water - last time I checked electrical wires and water DON'T mix! Routine Maintenance my bum! How in their right mind can they sit there in good conscious and tell us that we must pay $300.00 to fix a problem that is CLEARLY a design flaw....and that does not address any of the electrical problems we have been having. We will never, ever purchase from GM again that is for darn sure - they get bailed out by the government and they don't even have the decency to take care of a KNOWN ongoing problem - KARMA is all I can say
  • gmcustsvcsarahgmcustsvcsarah Posts: 1,964
    worried17,

    I'm sorry - I realize that you are not satisfied at the moment with the current diagnosis at your dealership. If we can look into this further with you, please contact us at socialmedia@gm.com (include your name/Edmunds username, phone and address, the last 8 of your VIN and current mileage, the name of your dealership and a description of your visits there (include date, etc) for the leaking concern).

    Best,
    Sarah
    GM Customer Service
  • dompdomp Posts: 24
    I'm in the same boat. Mind if I ask what area of the country you're in?

    My dealer is trying to charge me $500 to re-repair the leak they fixed previously ($500 not including any damamge caused by the leak).

    I agree about sunroof maintenance - I find nothing about maintaining drains, haven't been told about maintaining drains when the tubes were fixed the first couple of times.
  • worried17worried17 Posts: 6
    edited May 2012
    We are in Brevard County- Florida- we have called GM back and told them that this is just not acceptable to us...especially knowing that the car has now been in the shop 4 times for the exact same thing and each time they "supposedly" fixed it. Why should WE be responsible for paying to fix something that should have been fixed PROPERLY THREE OTHER TIMES. Are we supposed to take it into a GM dealer to fix something and then take it to a 3rd party shop after every fix just to make sure that GM fixed it correctly???? When you take a car in and they say they "fixed it", I am trusting that they are telling the truth and they knew what they were doing...now I have to second guess every single time the darn car is taken in. I am furious to learn that we are also going to be held responsible for going through the process of blowing out/cleaning out the drain lines to the sunroof on a regular basis because GM built a faulty design. So this is just going to keep happening over and over and over again all because GM is not stepping up and taking care of the issue. We SHOULD have gone through the Lemon Law filing process. The last time we brought it in was the 3rd repair and we were well within our time frame to file for the Lemon Law and they ASSURED us that the problem was fixed so we stupidly believed them and did not file...now we are out of our time frame. We paid $40,000 for this blasted car. Why is it that companies in the USA just can't make a quality vehicle or at least OWN UP TO IT when they realize there is a major flaw?
  • worried17worried17 Posts: 6
    Been fighting this tooth and nail all day and my husband has lost most of a day of work going back and forth on the phone - we shared ALL of the technical service bulletins with the service manager at the dealership concerning the water leak and he said that all the repairs were carried out via the service bulletins so they are no longer held liable. What needs to be in those stupid bulletins is that consumers are having the service bulletins carried out but it is NOT fixing the water leak. So we are now going around in circles - the car is obviously leaking water, it has now been in 4 times to be fixed, all the service bulletins were carried out, so they get to wipe their hands clear of the problem despite the fact that very obviously the repairs called for in those bulletins are NOT fixing the problem. What makes me even angrier is the fact that a gentleman just posted on the leaky outlook Facebook site that he brought his car in this week due to a water leak, they found that the drain tubes were blocked, they were going to charge him a huge sum of money to clear them out, he refused, and GM agreed to cover the cleaning and repair.......SO WHY in the world do they agree to fix one person's car for the EXACT same reason but NOT another person's car?????
  • nancy1960nancy1960 Posts: 54
    We had the same problems with the rear hatch, etc.... It turned out that our fuse box was flooded as well as our rear hatch motor. It''s extremely dangerous and grateful our car died in our driveway and that the fuse box didn't give out while we were driving, it could have been deadly.
    Bottom line, these drain tubes cannot handle large amounts of water despite multiple repairs = faulty product as well as extremely dangerous. I'm so sick and tired of GM and repair shops treated as all as if we were idiots, talking down to us and giving us lip service. Like it says in the "Secret Warranty" this actions are designed to break us down.... We're not broken and will continue to fight this injustice.
  • dompdomp Posts: 24
    I agree - this a serious safety issue. There have been times when I can't accelerate to the speed of traffic coming behind me since the car won't get out of first gear. Or pulled the key out of the ignition and left a car still running.
  • joyztoyjoyztoy Posts: 9
    It rained last night and needless to say my first stop this morning was to the dealership. Water again through the back up sensor/light and by the front passenger pillar. I broke down in tears at the dealership because I am DONE!!! It will be my sixth time trying to get this fixed, and my family cannot continue to live through this. My son had to put a towel over him on his way to day care and he was still soaked.

    My GM case is still open and I left a very emotional message for my rep. I know she didn't deserve some of the "colorful" words I left on her voicemail but I can't deal with this anymore. I just want my vehicle not to leak! My back up sensor was almost hanging from the headliner this morning so now I am even more concerned about electrical issues beyond those caused by water in the fuse box. My service agent at the dealership also view the water streaks that are visible when you open the door and look at the side of the dashboard.
  • worried17worried17 Posts: 6
    This is just so incredibly stressful and frustrating....the news just keeps getting worse......MASSIVE RUST. We are lucky in the fact that the GM service tech and manager are actually being really nice and truly WANT to help us - the upsetting part is that they are saying their hands are tied in that they can only do what GM allows them to do even though they want to do more to help. For example, we call GM and tell them this will be the 4th time the vehicle has had leaking problems and they say bring it in and they will have the shop inspect the vehicle....come to find out, the vehicle was NOT inspected, they opened the sunroof and saw that the drain tubes were "clogged" - end of inspection - they did not inspect the car ANY further for anything else...despite the fact we told them that water was found throughout the entire car and we are having countless electrical problems...they see the drain tubes clogged and automatically assume that is the problem - end of story and they don't look at anything else. They are not able to reproduce the electrical issues of the windows not working, the hatch intermittently not working, my car staying on after the keys are out and they have no explanation for any of that and are refusing to tie the water leak to the electrical issues. Then we have someone telling us that the drain tubes being clogged is our fault because we are supposed to be doing routine maintenance on the drain tubes - WHAT!!! and they are not going to cover the repairs. How can the drain tubes be clogged if we never open the sunroof and it is not near any trees and where the heck does it say we are supposed to conduct routine maintenance in cleaning out the sunroof drain tubes and the roof leaking has been repaired 3x in the past how come no one ever informed us of that fact? Then GM escalates our claim because we are furious at this point and we get the call that they will cover the repairs of everything but that we have to pay for the labor costs...WHAT!!!! I don't think so!

    So we told the service rep to PLEASE inspect the car - the WHOLE car and barely into the inspection, what do they find - massive rust in one spot - JOY...they informed us this is a big problem....so we tell them that we informed the dealership many moons ago that we found rust all over the place on the floorboards under our tracks for our center captain's chairs (where there was water in the floorboards)...they at the time told us that it was "normal"...and so we informed the service tech to PLEASE inspect the WHOLE car for further rust issues. We also asked AGAIN for them to check the fuse box and the electrical components for any water damage - still don't think they have even done this yet. This is a no brainer to me....the car has been leaking for YEARS off and on, they did not fix it correctly the past THREE times it was in and now we have massive rust. Rust can affect the integrity of the car - what if we have massive rust in other locations in the car - what if we get into a car accident and are hit in one of those areas and the area gives way due to it being compromised with rust damage eating through the metal? So they said this is turning into a huge problem and now have to basically hunt throughout the entire car and order all kinds of special parts in order to replace all the rusted out metal on the body. If they had just fixed this properly the FIRST time it had been brought in, we would not be in this situation
  • dompdomp Posts: 24
    I'm told there are more than just the two drain tubes in the sunroof area. Those were suppedly fixed by the bulletin repairs, but the drain tubes that are causing all of my problems now are different drain tubes and are not covered by any bulletins. I don't live near any trees, pine or otherwise, so what debris could be causing these problems?

    Might want to check youtube as well before your next shop visit. There is something else besides the fusebox that gets flooded that you might want to have checked - I think it's power steering related.

    Congrats on getting some coverage from GM - but I agree, that's not enough. I've had no luck at all yet - from GM or the dealer. Haven't tried the legal route or news route yet.
  • worried17worried17 Posts: 6
    My husband and I are in absolute shock right now - yesterday the dealership informed us that they had found rust and carried on a lengthy conversation as to where the rust was found and that this was now a warranty issue and they would need to order some parts and they put us back into a rental car - I then called and told them I am worried about them finding rust because we found rust on our seat tracks several years ago and I was concerned about the safety....today, my husband called to get an update on the rust situation and both the manager and tech both said, what rust? They told my husband that he must have mis-understood and they were talking about debri - debri does not sound the same as the word rust and why in the world would they go into a lengthy explanation as to where the rust was found and that it was now a warranty concern - they then stated they never talked about rust and never had that conversation with my husband. I even called and spoke with them about and said, my husband told me that you found rust and explained my concern about rust being found in the car several years ago.....I have NEVER, in my entire life had someone attempt to cover something up like this - they have completely changed their story, are stating they never had any conversations about rust and warranty with either one of us. I am totally flabbergasted and in shock. How can people do that???? My husband is trying to find out if his office phones have a recording built in mechanism because he called from work when they had this discussion yesterday. I know this was going to be tough but never in a million years ever thought that lying and covering up would occur - totally blown away
  • worried17worried17 Posts: 6
    well we are officially done with dealing with this - it appears the tech who spoke with us about rust yesterday is stating that conversation never happened and for whatever reason, he made a mistake and doesn't want to admit to it, at least the manager is taking full responsibility for what occurred stating there was some form of miscommunication- we have lost all faith and respect on their communication methods and how they handle situations and just plan on finishing up the car and figuring out if we dump the car or take it to a ma/pa shop far, far away from any GM or other corporate dealership... - done with this whole mess
  • joyztoyjoyztoy Posts: 9
    We dropped our truck for the 6th time. ANY clues on what exactly fails after 2-3 years to cause this leak? Obviously when I rolled out it off the dealership floor it didn't leak. I have had so many fixes to my sunroof system I believe it is something beyond that. Yes, I get it is probably a design defect somewhere, but why didn't it occur on day 1? I live in MN where thunderstorm and downpours are a common and the drain tubes were able to handle the overflow until last fall. And then the leaking gradually became worst and worse. So the mystery question again: What failed?
  • bubbles56bubbles56 Posts: 6
    Send a letter to all the National News companies about this problem. If everyone did this, then it would actually get looked at. Send a letter to your Senator and congressman as well as the Attorney General. Just type out everything and mail the same letter to anyone and everyone you can. Once we all do this, someone will take notice and bring GM down for this mess. The National news can do this better than anyone else I can think of. The one who had three problems in the first year can still file a lemon law claim...just try...it doesn't hurt and that is one more company involved and documented with this problem. It is pretty bad when you have to either keep your car covered or put landscaping plastic and duck tape around the sunroof to keep dry. I traded my Outlook in after they fixed it the third time...and they paid for the third visit. I would tell the dealer that they "fixed" the problem twice and it still leaks, you want a refund or for them to fix it for free this time. I had to go to GM, Sarah, who advanced my complaint higher and they paid for the moonroof seal. I traded that car in while I knew it was still fixed. I was one of the lucky ones. Just everyone needs to get those letters out if you want help down the road.
  • dompdomp Posts: 24
    Thanks for the suggestions. Still hoping customer service will help. It's my two week anniversary now that the dealer has had my car.

    I really don't see why GM wouldn't handle this issue better. GM must know this is a chronic issue - just a few minutes on edmunds, nhtsa, youtube, facebook, and the saturn outlook boards and the outlook clone sites and it's clear how big of an issue it is. They're going to wait until the leak causes significant damage to the car instead of dealing with the leak sooner? I don't get it - is this a way to get more service $$$ at the expense of the cars reputation, resale value and GMs reputation?

    Sad, but is it going to take a string of accidents and injuries from the enging running, shifting, power steering, etc. issues before this gets addressed by GM properly?
  • echelon079echelon079 Posts: 1
    So our 2007 sunroof just started leaking water. We purchased the car certified pre owned for a GM dealer and now are being told that our dual sunroof was not factory installed. This is an OEM sunroof, it looks exactly as any other setup in in that vehicle. Has anyone else ran into this?
  • My Saturn Outlook 2007 is a Death Trap:

    Last night while my family and I were driving back home we almost died thanks to my leaky roof...
    We left the restaurant and I noticed that there was water coming in on the front airbag column this was supposed to be fixed in 2008 by the dealer, and I'm not sure for how long this has been going on. We take care of our car and only have around 37,000 miles on it since 2007.
    I was driving around 45 MPH and the steering on it stopped working, I mean I could not turn the thing ½” either way...there were cars going around me since it conveniently happened while driving slightly down hill and around a curve.

    After reading online this seems to be a huge problem and I wonder how many people have to get in a crash or die before GM will release a recall.
    I will never purchase another GM vehicle again. I'm going to drop this $33,000 piece of crap at the dealer this weekend and hope I don't get screwed.
    I will not let my wife drive it period...and I hope we don't die because of this problem. The only thing that helps me sleep a bit easier is the fact that I did not pay the extra $10,000 for the Acadia when the people who bought that will have the same problems for a greater cost.
  • gmcustsvcgmcustsvc Posts: 4,068
    echelon079,
    Thank you for taking the time to post your concerns. Can you please email me directly with your VIN, current mileage, and the name of your dealer? I would like to look into this further.
    Christina
    GM Customer Service
    SocialMedia@GM.com
  • dompdomp Posts: 24
    I agree. 12hours after leaving the dealer and over $1500 poorer, I'm again stuck on the side of the road trying to coax my car out of first gear before turning onto a 50mph road. Should've gone straight to from the dealer to trade it in. Perhaps I'll get lucky and get rear ended next time this happens. 1) at least it'll be covered by insurance since GM won't help and 2) perhaps that would bring added attention to these problems.
  • gmcustsvcsarahgmcustsvcsarah Posts: 1,964
    deathtrap2007,

    I'm sorry to read about the situation with your Outlook while you were out on the road, and that you have decided to trade it in this upcoming Saturday. I hope that any hunt for a replacement vehicle goes smoothly, and if we can answer any questions we're happy to assist. Email us at socialmedia@gm.com

    Best,
    Sarah
    GM Customer Service
  • Holy ££££ I am having the same exact problem with my 2007 Saturn.... It is shorting something and draining my battery. I think it is from the leaking sun roof. In the last 3 weeks I have dropped $2,000.00 into it or more.. Let me know what you find out please.
  • dompdomp Posts: 24
    My 2007 was also draining the battery so sounds like it may be the same issue. I'm told front drain tubes are one issue (in my case covered by by GM - not sure if it was a recall or warranty). Those soaked my floors seats and headliner around the sunroof. The new issue is supposedly around the rear moonroof I think. Not covered by GM at all - $1500+ so far (no help with that from GM, dealer, or customer service) and there is still a shifting issue so expecting the bill to go even higher.

    Odd that their saying the front sunroof drains onto the floor and seat but this water problem is completely different (therefore not covered) and travels from the rear moonroof goes past the front sunroof, past the seat, past the floors, all the way to the engine compartment.

    Might want to try customer customer service for the heck of it - I think some have had some help.
  • nancy1960nancy1960 Posts: 54
    edited May 2012
    FOLKS~ I believe that no doubt the water leaks are under the Secret Warranty - what do you think ? It's way overdue but it's time to become proactive as a group.....

    Keywords: Manufacturers often stonewall the consumer over secret warranties knowing that many consumers will give up in utter frustration and go away mad. Don't.

    Tell the local media about your secret warranty problem. Many consumers get reimbursed because a local Action Line, newspaper or television station starts to take an interest in a secret warranty. After all, if a manufacturer is trying to keep a secret warranty secret, the last thing the company wants is publicity on the secret warranty. A particularly good strategy is to announce the formation of a group to expose the particular secret warranty affecting your car. Even if the group is small as you and your neighbor, a group is powerful and attracts more attention than an individual.

    Small Claims Court
    Manufacturers often stonewall the consumer over secret warranties knowing that many consumers will give up in utter frustration and go away mad. Don't. Take the documentation on the secret warranty and your repair efforts to small claims court. At this point, it's the manufacturer who often gives up knowing that the legal rights are on the consumer's side. The manufacturer relies on its own complaint handling mechanism to wear down consumers. once you show you won't be beat by the manufacturer's complaint handling mechanism, you should succeed. The manufacturer will finally recognize its responsibility for the defect in your car and reimburse you.

    Conclusion
    The squeaky wheel gets the grease. The consumers who complain the loudest get reimbursed under secret warranties. The good customer who goes away quietly gets ripped off. Until auto companies wake up and realize that consumer protection is good business, consumers have to be aggressive or they will wind up paying for an auto company's mistake. Since billions of dollars in repairs are covered by secret warranties, the total benefit to consumers in exercising their rights is enormous.


    Secret warranties are a multi-billion consumer abuse. Every auto company makes mistakes in building cars. Whether they are design defects that affect every car or whether they are manufacturing defects which affect only some cars, they must be repaired. The only question is who pays for the manufacturers' mistakes, the manufacturer or the consumer. Although the auto manufacturer often establishes a secret warranty to pay for the repair, all too often it is the consumer who pays for the manufacturer's mistake because the consumer never finds out about the secret warranty. That's wrong and the Center for Auto Safety wants to change it.

    In a 1987 report the Center for Auto Safety (CAS) created national headlines by identifying 10 exemplary secret warranties covering 30 million vehicles and $3 billion in repair costs. Yet this is but the tip of the iceberg for we estimate that at any one time over 500 secret warranties exist for all auto companies. According to a Toyota whistleblower who provided a complete list in May 1988, Toyota alone had 41 secret warranties at that time.

    By exposing secret warranties, CAS forces manufacturers to pay for their mistakes and creates a strong incentive for them to build better cars in the future. once secret warranties are disclosed, consumers will save hundreds, if not thousands, in repair bills on their personal cars. Spurred on by CAS exposes, state legislatures are moving to pass secret warranty disclosure laws that will protect consumers. Until then, consumers must rely on the strategies suggested in our book, Little Secrets of the Auto Industry, to discover and use secret warranties to pay for repairs in their vehicles.

    What is a secret warranty?
    Auto companies hate the term secret warranties. They call them policy adjustments, good will programs, service campaigns or extended warranties . But whatever they are called, they are a longstanding industry practice. When a car company has a major defect that occurs after its written warranty expires, it establishes an adjustment policy to pay for repairs rather than deal with many thousands, if not millions, of complaints on a case by case basis. But the auto company communicates the policy only to regional offices and not even always to its dealers. The auto manufacturers never notify the consumer; so only the consumer who complains loudly enough gets covered by the secret warranty. Other consumers end up bearing the costs of the manufacturer's mistakes.

    Examples of Secret Warranties
    CAS has documented case after case of secret warranties since our founding in 1970. one of the first and most famous was Ford's J-67 Limited Service Program which covered rust on 12 million 1969-72 cars and trucks. In this case a bulletin which went out only to Ford regional offices stated, "This is a limited service program without dealership notification and should be administered on an individual complaint basis." Under this program, Ford would pay up to 100% to repair rust and paint damage on its vehicles even if it cost over a $1000.

    CAS has uncovered secret warranties on all auto companies with little differences between them. A 1972 Mazda secret warranty bulletin doubled the coverage for rotary engine damage but cautioned, "Since this is a temporary program which may be terminated at [any] time, owners are not to be informed of the extended coverage." Honda had secret warranties on head gaskets and rusting fenders in the mid-1970's; Chrysler had rusting fenders on Volares and Aspens in the late 1970's; GM had the transmission secret warranty caused by a ban on sperm whale oil as a lubricant; Peugeot and Subaru both covered defective head gaskets; and VW covered valve stem seals.

    Secret warranties soared after 1980 when the federal government dropped all efforts to ban them. GM had a 5 year/50,000 mile secret warranty covering repair of defective rack and pinion power steering systems on all 16 million of its 1981-88 front wheel drive cars. Toyota covered pulsating brakes on its 1983-86 Camry in a $100 million secret warranty. Ford never told owners of its 1985-92 F-series pickups that America's most popular truck had peeling paint because Ford skipped the primer layer. According to Nissan documents provided to CAS by a whistleblower in 1990, Nissan had at one time up to 48 secret warranties covering various cars and trucks.

    There is no doubt that auto manufacturers presently have many other secret warranties. However, assessing how widespread secret warranty programs are is difficult because these programs, by definition, are not intended for public disclosure. Since CAS began exposing secret warranties more widely in the 1980's, the auto makers having gotten better at keeping them secret. Even CAS can no longer get lists of secret warranties to disclose. one Honda insider to
  • bubbles1956bubbles1956 Posts: 32
    I got GM to pay for my moonroof lining. After two times bringing in my car and they couldn't find the leaks...they paid for the $400 plus repair of replacing the liner. The first time I took my car in last year they told me it might be the drain tubes getting dirty. That never sounded right to me anyway since I only opened that sunroof maybe twice in the 4 years I had it. I still think if everyone sent a letter to the National news and talked to a lawyer about a class action law suit...something might be done.
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