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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,853
    edited September 2012
    I am not sure why? I think we already have some history (understatement for me) as to how much better the TDI's are (mpg wise) than the gassers. Performance also, but it might be a secondary issue. Perhaps the real question/issue: can they beat the 43 mpg (and by how much) on their hybrid offering. I would suspect the 2012 Prius's 50 mpg would be the official but unofficial bar.

    IF I was starting fresh, the 6 speed Passat TDI would be front and center, even as it is way too big and too much car.

    EPA of 43 H, with unofficial but official 84 mpg, sets a VERY high bar. So the other question would be: can the VW hybrid offering beat 84 mpg.

    Being as how I am not right now the one that really appeals to me is that hopped up GTD, which is not yet avaiable on the US markets. Baring that BWM needs to bring back that 425 # ft twin turbo diesel 3 series.
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,419
    I am not sure why?

    The usual; fuel is higher, purchase price is often higher too, can be hard to find in the boonies, mechanics can be even harder to find, high particulates, and my wife can't tolerate the fumes.

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  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,853
    Got it. No real change for folks with your metrics?
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,419
    edited September 2012
    I'm cheap so that'll probably mean a gasser when our beaters finally die. Hybrids really appeal to my wife. I'm curious about the stats that say most hybrid owners don't buy a second one though. Not a good omen.

    Remind me to look up Jetta TCO when they get all three of them out.

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  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,853
    edited September 2012
    I hear you. Short term goal for the Jetta TDI is 250,000 miles. The second TB/WB change is due in 22,000 miles, or @ 200,000 miles. I am even thinking about changing the lifetime transmission fluid. The second head lamp (passenger side) went out within the last 6 months, so I would not change them both when one goes out. Glad I have skinny hands.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,964
    I think the 50 to 75 times are more important but you rarely see that marketed.

    If we compared a gas to diesel in that segment, RPMs would also have to be taken into consideration. Those worthless little 4 cylinder gas engines have to scream to high RPMs and down shift to match the diesel performance. Then you are sucking gas like crazy with the DI gasser and it is likely Premium. Even big gas V8s do not come close to the torque of the V6 diesels until you get into the very expensive Turbo V8s. If you don't mind a $40k hit for a fire breathing V8 and the extra gas, the ML63 AMG is the one for you.

    The ML V6 gas has 273 ft-lbs of torque, compared to 455 ft-lbs in the Diesel model. For an insignificant $1700 premium. If you are looking for the most bang for your buck, it is hard to beat a diesel model when offered.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    introduce the Jetta hybrid

    I can guarantee failure for that one. For many reasons.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    it is likely Premium

    Didn't ruking1 just say only 9% of the gas fleet uses premium?

    Gassers fell behind mostly because fuel was so cheap it didn't really matter until recently.

    Nowadays, though, Volvo, Hyundai, Ford, Kia, Mazda, and GM all make DI gas turbos that run on regular fuel just fine.
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,419
    Introduce the Jetta hybrid

    I can guarantee failure for that one. For many reasons.


    What if they wind up with a diesel hybrid?

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  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,853
    edited September 2012
    On this thread anyway, it has been pretty well established that most folks are essentially brainwashed to chose the higher cost options when it comes to cost per mile driven (CPMD) fuel. Even if they are NOT brainwashed, most models and years do not have a valid diesel engine option comparison to chose among like models. So 95% of the folks will chose RUG/PUG (9% ) over diesel, despite

    RUG/PUG being 33% to 44 % more expensive than diesel.

    Sidebar puts: corner store prices @ RUG 4.09 /PUG 4.29 /ULSD 4.35 (it should be obvious that diesel sells for more than RUG/PUG Of course it would be 4.25 if the fuel tax was the same as RUG/PUG. Funny how ULSD is taxed more for being CLEANER 30 ppm, nominally delivered @ the pumps @ 5 to 10 ppm than RUG/PUG 30 to 90 ppm sulfur)

    VW 2009 TDI 39.6 mpg=.1098 cents CPMD / gasser 25.7=.159 cents CPMD/ T 29.4=.1459 cents CPMD

    The other issue of interest are real world mpg figures diesel are 54% to 35% better THAN rug/pug.

    VW pegs of late diesel yearly sales as app 20%. So one interpretation can be that of those considering VW's (aka RUG/PUG/ ULSD) 20% chose diesels, albeit given the three options. Another interesting note is that VW charges a slight to bigger premium for diesels.

    A guestion might be how would that effect the percentages if their were no premium above the engine option that uses PUG ?
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    edited September 2012
    If you don't mind a $40k hit for a fire breathing V8 and the extra gas, the ML63 AMG is the one for you.

    Not the one for me. For $8,000 less than the ML63, the BMW X5M has 40 more horsepower, handles twice as good and gets equally miserable gas mileage. Choice number two for me would be a Cayenne Turbo S, for a lot more money but with handling and driving dynamics that are on a different planet than the ML. AMG is very good at making muscle cars that go in a straight line.

    Or...we could all just be patient and wait for a 376 hp, 550+ ft.lb X5M Diesel that gets better fuel economy than the average V6 gas SUV: http://www.autoblog.com/2012/01/26/bmw-m-shows-off-new-diesel-powered-lineup-in-- - motion/

    In the meantime, I'm happy having an lowly X5d that runs circles around our old MDX and gets better fuel economy than my TL. That will probably be the case until about 2022.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    edited September 2012
    diesel hybrid?

    If they can keep the cost down to earth, I think that could be a hit.

    They're known for diesels, so there is a positive association there.

    Diesel+electric hybrid would beat any hybrid on the market for the MPG crown, and that would steal headlines.

    Gas+electric would fail. When you're asked to name a fuel efficient gas powered car, does a VW come to mind? Now name 20...still not one VW on that list.

    There's no association at all. It will not take the MPG crown, instead being a footnote on page 6 in the media.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,853
    edited September 2012
    It is funny that you can't even bring yourself to say 37 (.33) mpg (ULSD) aka on a 550# ft of torque on a TRI turbo 3.0 L diesel ! ? ;) :sick: :shades:

    While I hope stuff like this hits our markets, holding the breath is not the best option. ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I don't disagree with what you wrote, but I think you're comparing the best diesels to some relatively mediocre gas engines (VW's 2.slow, 2.5l, etc), at least when it comes to gasoline fuel efficiency.

    In other words, the gas benchmark is set low.

    I think a shopper looking for an efficient car would consider the better gas engines, DI or DI-turbo, even. In those cases the advantages are far less than the 35-54% listed.

    Ex: Mazda3 SkyActiv vs. Golf TDI. Real world mileage is virtually tied, TDI only very slightly ahead.

    Depends on how you look at it, I suppose. I'd take a Gold TDI over a 2.slow or 2.5l, sure.

    But I'd shop SkyActiv or Focus SFE vs. a TDI, not a gasser Golf. There the claimed 35-54% advantage diminishes greatly.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,853
    VW already has a gasser hybrid on the market. Not only does it sport low volume production in an already low volume MY (set @ 7.500 to 8,500 units), but there are 86 remaining units available in the US market.

    That would in no way shape or form encourage a diesel hybrid. Presumably they had made this decision and choice some years before.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,853
    edited September 2012
    Ah, no and no. It was stated very clearly the examples were a LIKE model issue, and stated several times. The 09 2.0 is a T (turbo), the 2.5 L is the "slo".

    Again you echo and reinforce my points.

    Put another way, why doesn't SKYACTIV or Ford Focus SFE have TDI's?

    (They probably do in other than US markets.)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I just don't think anyone looking for a gas hybrid even thinks about VW.

    I haven't seen a single ad for them, either.

    A diesel hybrid would write its own headlines. :shades:
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    I don't disagree with what you wrote, but I think you're comparing the best diesels to some relatively mediocre gas engines

    Agreed. An interesting comparison is BMW's former 335d vs. their current 328i. EPA ratings of 23/36 vs. 22/34. In that case, the diesel advantage is - at least on paper - much less than it is in the case of the X5d vs. X5 3.5i. Add to that, the fact that the 328i is less expensive, quicker off the line and the weight advantage of the turbo 4 is more noticeable in a sport sedan.

    Sounds like I'm arguing against the 335d. Not really. Friend that has one actually gets 38-40+ mpg at 70-75 on the highway; 25+ in town. He doesn't need an engine on/off feature to get to those numbers and, once again, if he need to accelerate from 50-75, the 425 ft.lbs. of torque is ready and willing to accommodate. So, at least as far as he is concerned, in his 18 months of real world experience, he would not trade the 335d for the 328i. But it is a closer call than the VW comparison.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    edited September 2012
    stated very clearly the examples were a LIKE model issue

    And I don't disagree, in that context.

    But I also don't think that's how consumers shop.

    They want a fuel efficient 5 door hatch. They compare the TDI to the SkyActiv and Focus SFE.

    They would not even consider a 2.0T if fuel economy is the priority.

    Mazda does have a SkyActiv-D, they call it, just not here yet.

    Basically where we disagree is about what models get cross-shopped. My issue with your thinking is that VW would then only cannibalize itself, i.e. steal gasser sales for their TDIs.

    That's working.

    VW needs to bring new buyers to the brand, from the outside. To succeed at that, you have to also consider the better gassers as competition.
  • xwesxxwesx Fairbanks, AlaskaPosts: 8,450
    it is hard to beat a diesel model when offered.

    Yes, with strong emphasis on when offered! Basically, anything outside of the luxury market is extremely limited (as in VW only) when it comes to diesel offerings. When purchasing my Fiesta recently, there's no way I could justify purchasing a Jetta wagon at ~$10K additional cost just to obtain the extra space. Granted, I would like the extra space, but I can get along without it, and it wasn't $10,000 worth.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,853
    Obviously not many oems share that opinion, enough to commit the resources necessary.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    A diesel hybrid would write its own headlines.

    I don't think so. The hybrid advantage is pretty much limited to city driving and/or relatively short hops. A diesel hybrid on extended highway trips would get lower fuel efficiency than a straight diesel, correct? The electric motor would not be used at all and the added weight would be a drag to fuel efficiency.

    The revolutionary answer is, IMO, all electric as in the Tesla Model S. Unfortunately, current battery technology and economics result in a $20k premium to go from 150 mile range to a 300 mile range. For me, a 450 mile range in a $60k Model S would be the answer to our sedan needs. Enough juice to get us to our home in PA and competitive with a 5 series in price. I'm on the deposit list, but thinking that I probably don't want to spend $50k for 150 mile range or $85k for the 300 mile performance edition. Even though the latter would give my old 911S a decent run for the money.

    My guess is that if we all went to sleep for 100 years, we'd wake up with no fossil fuel cars to be found and a little nuclear cold fusion generator under our houses to supply nearly free electricity.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,853
    edited September 2012
    ..."My issue with your thinking is that VW would then only cannibalize itself, i.e. steal gasser sales for their TDIs. "...

    I think that might be one consequence of YOUR thinking. It is not mine.

    VW has made no secret of its goal to profit and to be the number one car oem in the world. I think they realize they can not afford to be unprofitable to have the profit levels like Toyota/GM ( much lower) in their quest for the top slot. That of course presents internal challenges that really are opaque to us, the consumers.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,853
    edited September 2012
    I would also agree. Despite all the bru ha ha, TMI, etc., etc. about hybrids, no oem of hybrids will come out and say (in plain English) it only offers @ most 20% advantage mpg wise over gassers. @ that you have to drive it in a behavioral changed way and attitude.

    Prius and Corolla have the same sized 4 cylinder engine (1.8 L) ! The Prius had to go through a few generations, redesigns and even 10 years to even come close. It even has the CVT vs Corolla's older than dirt designs. This is not even to mention the 7,900 MSRP premium.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    edited September 2012
    not many oems share that opinion, enough to commit the resources necessary

    And some already failed.

    X6 Active Blue Stupidity or something like that.

    Found a source:

    http://www.autoblog.com/2011/09/19/bmw-x6-active-hybrid-cancelled-with-a-quickne- ss/
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Highway MPG would drop by 1 mpg, but city MPG would jump up by about 10 mpg.

    Combined weighs city driving more heavily, 55% IIRC, so combined would jump up 6 MPG or so.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    If anything I bet the diesel production cost is higher and they squeeze margins a bit to get them to market to meet CAFE standards.

    I doubt the diesels are more profitable.

    They can't thrive by only having the TDIs cannibalize their other models. They have to conquest shoppers looking at efficient competitors.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,853
    edited September 2012
    I am not sure what you mean and what to make of your first sentence.

    I used profit in the over all sense and did not sequester diesel profits .

    Again this is your thinking. I am sure VW does not want to sell TDI's at the price of K balling VW gassers. So while I am sure some of that happens, NO oem's publishes K ball figures. So again, that is opaque to us, consumers. If anything VW wants to get both new/first car buyers, values current customers, encourages multiple vehicle ownership, and K ball other oems, but I think you know that.

    In my case if not for TDI's, I would more than likely NOT buy VW's. So in this case the consumer is a gimme. Additionally I probably will not buy another car or even oem that does not offer a diesel.

    Essentially VW needs to figure out how to improve how it is perceived in this US market. But at the same time it has gone from a less than 2.5% of US market share to 3.5% of market share a 40% improvement. I'd say they're whistling DIXIE.

    World wide, VW jockeys for positions 1,2,3. They are by far THE most profitable oem of almost any position; in percentage, volume, or any combination.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Well, if VW is aiming for profit margins, I don't think shifting more buyers to diesel purchases alone will accomplish that.

    Europe is in crisis so VW should buckle up for 2-3 years of stagnation at best, probably even drops in sales.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    In my case if not for TDI's, I would more than likely NOT buy VW's

    You just inadvertently supported my theory that people looking for an efficient car will not settle for one of VWs gassers. ;)
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