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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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Comments

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I guess eco credit sounds better than "whoops we missed our CAFE targets hurry up and sell more diesels!" :D
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,908
    edited October 2012
    Yes like SkyActive D !? I can not find any real explanation of what that means in real English. Now, I get the ethereal slant/ version. You know, Tesla WW power grids with linked stations, set off by Egyptian pyramids, free to cheap to endlless power and SKY hooks. We used to use a lot of sky hooks in the service.

    Yes, I do know that D = turbo diesel.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    SkyActiv, leave off the "e".

    Probably so they can trade mark it.

    You know, like Flo Rida and Xhibit, dawg. :D
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,908
    Insert the metric: for 100,000 miles.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    This is old news (2012 MY but the cheapest BMW X5 35 D in US inventory is 53k (52,990) out of 464 D units.

    Where did you find that data? I didn't see it on BMW USA website.

    BTW, no 2013 X5d. At least not yet. The X5 is going through redesign and I believe that in addition to body/interior changes, they will be revising the diesel engine option(s). The X5 3.5i and 5.0i are available as MY 2013, and you can still order a to be built X5d as a MY 2012 model through the end of this month.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    OPEC probably threatened them. Too much revenue loss. ;)

    You just know half the X5s made end up in OPEC countries.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,908
    edited October 2012
    Yes I think BMW might want to list MSRP rather than the prices real dealers sell them for.

    Indeed I am a tad confused, 3,069 units, 2013 BMW X5 are listed for 2013. 8 diesels (x5 35 D are in inventory

    Yes I have never ever bothered to ask oems when the order cut off dates are.

    It is getting to the end of the 2012 season. The remaining inventory for VW Touareg TDI's are 433.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Sorry to repeat, but where did you find that data? Please provide a source or link. Thanks.
  • eliaselias Posts: 1,929
    habitat, congrats on selecting the x5d instead of the admittedly-cool tesla or fisker or whatever non-GM electric cars you were looking at!
    Also I appreciate the point about weighted averages as applies to city vs highway vs total mpg.
    (And independent of arithmetic, I hope the the beginner-driver in your household has told you recently that you are world's #1 dad!)
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,908
    MPG for an UP grade leg has been 28 mpg lots of stop and go traffic. ( 3 adults and airplane lugguage for all, San Jose, CA to South Tahoe, Highway 50).

    It will be interesting to note what the down grade mpg will be. Pen and ink should capture the real world mpg.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Elias, thanks, but you may have given me premature credit where it isn't due. The X5d replaced my wife's old MDX, but I'm still considering the Tesla or a fun car to replace/augment my aging TL. I'm going to test drive the Tesla this week and give them the answer on whether to refund my deposit or build me a car. Odds are I'll be $5,000 richer by Friday, but you never know. And my two teenage daughters would certainly contend that I'm a very long way from the world's #1 dad, but I try to make sure that they know they are 100% of what matters most. That's easy math.

    Cheers.
  • eliaselias Posts: 1,929
    You are most welcome, Hab.
    Please pass along any/all comments about the x5d!...
    fwiw, the tesla is growing on me - I saw it on Byron Allen's "cars.tv" over the weekend. Best wishes with your next/maybe-Tesla vehicle choice.
    I sure agree with your 100% math, but recommend you check your worlds-#1-dad coffee cup to verify where in the top-10-dad-list you are.
  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 40,866

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  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,908
    edited October 2012
    "MPG for an UP grade leg has been 28 mpg lots of stop and go traffic. ( 3 adults and airplane lugguage for all, San Jose, CA to South Tahoe, Highway 50).

    It will be interesting to note what the down grade mpg will be. Pen and ink should capture the real world mpg."

    To close out this trip, I was not able to get separate up and down leg mpg , real world pen and ink mpg figures. However , this short tank full (16 gal/26.4 gal capacity) went 489 miles for a pen and ink real world filling (filled in an agricultural town), interesting for an EPA of 19/28 mpg. After this, we hit the outlets, then onto lunch in one of the greatest end destination cities and hit a consulate to pick up a visa for an upcoming business trip. I was glad the SF Giants were playing an AWAY game. Traffic would probably be worse that it already was.

    The roads, traffic and weather were absolutely stellar. Not a sign of snow anywhere (7500 to 9,500 ft)

    Applicable side bar: The MDX driver that went on this trip with me was almost incredulous about both the range and mpg.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    edited October 2012
    Got a "make me an offer" proposal from a BMW dealer that I referred a friend to several months ago. In July, they sold him a brand new 535i 6-speed manual with a MSRP of just under $60k for $45,500. They still have two 2011 leftover 335d's. MSRP on each is just under $53,000.

    I had called him about a pre-owned 911 they had at their sister dealership. I really wasn't thinking of replacing my Acura TL. It only has 63k miles and is equipped with my much preferred manual transmission. But......there is probably a price that would tempt me. A quick check on the web seems to show $35-36k would be a good price for a USED 2011 335d with medium miles - 20,000-25,000. The lower mileage ones push $39-42k.

    I probably don't want to make an offer that would either completely offend the manager (I still want his help on a Porsche), or put me in a position of feeling guilty if he takes it and I dont really want the car. My fiend already owes me a big dinner for his $14k under MSPR deal on the 535i. Anyone else want to buy me desert in exchange for a $37.5k brand new 335d?

    P.S. Don't ask me for name of dealer. You can probably figure out, but I'm keeping that confidential until I decide what to do. :)
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,908
    edited October 2012
    WOW. I am not sure as to how this compares to anything, but with $53k msrp and 35/36k that is a 1 year decrease of - 32%.! On the lower mileage one you cite, MINUS 26% to 21%.

    It would seem a good way to buy a BMW is @ MINUS -1 year to - 5 years (actually that is also true for most cars) if one wants to come within budget parameters, which most to all do.

    I have not sold any of my TDI's, so I do not know the real world figures. However the last vehicle (gasser 1987 TLC) I sold was a loss of app MINUS -38% over 14 years or MINUS 2.7% per year depreciation.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    That first year depreciation is always a painful hit, and substantiates the old rule of thumb that it costs you 15-20% just to drive a car off the lot. With 2011 335d's BMW had been offering $2,500 to $4,500 eco-credits (rebates) throughout their production run, and it's pretty easy to get a 5% dealer discount on the MSRP, so I figure the average buyer of a $53k MSRP only paid $46-48k to start.

    Your 1987 -2001 experience proves that buying a low cost car in an inflationary environment results in the lowest annual depreciation hit. I had a 1984 Toyota Supra that I paid $16k for brand new, drover for 3.5 years and 50k miles, didn't yet replace the tires, and sold in 1988 for $12,600. About $80 per month depreciation. But during that time, the price of a new Supra went from $16k to $22k (+38%) and by 8 years later (1996), Toyota was trying to sell the Supra Turbo for $50k.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    There was a year (20010 IIRC?) where used Subarus went up in value. New models come in at higher prices so more people look to used.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,908
    Gagrice sold his Passat and was pretty happy with the low depreciation he experienced.

    During the first 1 to 3 years of the 03 TDI ownership , it would have been a no brainer to sell it for literally what I paid for it (sans taxes) and with anywhere from 25,000 to 50,000 miles. I am guessing that 20/20 hindsight indicates selling it would have been the cleaner deal if I didn't really: want/need transportation 2.set out to keep it for a long time and period of miles.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,028
    I did not even lose any taxes. Only one year Alaska License fee of $30. I got to drive it 13 months and 8000 miles. Which made it legal to own in CA. I put it on Craigslist and had more response than you can imagine. That was 2006. The first to come up with the cash was an older couple from Prescott AZ. They tried finding a wagon TDI for over a year in AZ with no luck. Last email I got from them was a couple years ago. They had made many trips back East to visit family and loved the car. I missed it as soon as I sold it. Here are the 3 diesels I have owned. Still have the tractor and it runs great. The Mercedes RV took almost a year to sell at the price I wanted.

    image

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  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Great deal for you! I'm not familiar with the VW Wagon situation in 2006, were they limited production or some other reason why the value wen up?

    My only close to similar experience was when I bought a 2002 Honda S2000 in November 2001. MSRP was $33,300 with freight; I paid $32,000. Three months earlier, before 9-11, dealers were marking the car up to $38-$40k+ But this was as the first snowflakes were flying, and only 2 months after 9-11. When I checked six months later in April, the Edmunds "True Market Value" for a new car was $37,000 here in the DC area, and if you plugged in a California zip code, it was $40,000. Purely a supply/demand issue, because of Honda's limited production.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,028
    Two things were in my favor on this deal. First the 2001-05 Passat Wagon TDI made in the EU was not legal in any of the California wannabe states. The oil companies were in the process of switching their diesel to ULSD. In the Spring of 2005 diesel prices spiked and that killed the market for diesel VWs in the states they were being sold. A dealer South of Portland Oregon had ordered several of the TDI wagons and was not moving them. I found the dealer and made the deal over the Internet at well below MSRP. We flew to Portland where the salesman picked us up in our new car. We Drove back to the dealership. I gave them a cashiers check and we headed back to San Diego. BP/ARCO was the only oil company selling ULSD in 2005 in CA. I printed out a list of the ARCO dealers in CA selling ULSD. We drove from Portland to the first dealer in CA on the tank provided by the dealership. The 13 months I owned it we only used ARCO ULSD. Over the 8376 miles I owned the car, the best tank was 37.53 MPG. The worst tank was 24.41 MPG. I am not sure how big the tank was. The most I ever got in was 17.283 gallons. Finding ULSD was not easy back then. From April of 2005 till I sold in May of 2006 the cheapest diesel was $2.49 and the highest $3.39 a gallon. I filled up my GMC the same day same ARCO, RUG was $2.93. As a percentage diesel is a much better deal today than in 2005.

    Diesel mileage is much improved as well. I loved driving the Passat. It was just too close to the ground for my tastes. I doubt I will ever make money buying and selling a new car again. That was a lucky deal for me.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,908
    edited October 2012
    For each of the diesels we have bought, each was almost a set of non standard metrics: one off type, of variables/circumstances and deals. Here's the first.

    I literally stumbled onto the 2003 Jetta TDI. (invoice+ broker fee) I had wanted and thought I had ordered a NB. Got it from a GM dealer in wine country (Napa, CA area) So I did not have to come back up, they offered to flat bed it to my garage, sans fees. It was hard to pass up doing an iconic wine country tour so I made a Sunday pick up date. My sales guy explained the dealership was not open on Sundays, but he was happy to open the dealership to pick up the vehicle. !??? I had brought a personal check, but VW was offering an almost no interest loan. I literally drove away on a signature. Longer story short, after adjusting to the fact there was a Jetta in front of me instead of a NB and a few phone calls to the wife, he took me on a three hour guided tour of the wine country. I think we wound up glad that the car even though it was not from around there, knew the way. ;) :shades:
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,908
    Interesting @ the end of the MY 2012, there are still some TDI inventory in the CUV segment (SUV segment app 12% of the Pass Vehicle Fleet)

    BMW X5 35 D =671 units

    VW Touareg TDI =407 units

    MB ML 350 CDI= 45 units

    There are of course a much higher ratio of gassers left.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    "BMW X5 35 D =671 units"

    Where are you getting BMW inventory data?

    It's not on the BMW USA website that I can find, and I'm pretty sure you aren't calling every dealer in the US to add them up. I've asked this question at least twice before and you seem to promptly respond to every other post, except that particular question. So maybe it's something that you would have to shoot me for if I knew??
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,908
    edited October 2012
    I thought I had posted it, but either it was taken down or I got caught in a internet or thread posting time warp. So again, or maybe if I was mistaken, the first time Inventory
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,908
    edited October 2012
    2012 VW Touareg @ 13,000 miles (12654 miles actual, screen came on indicating 1,500 miles left ) the AD BLUE reservoir tank seemed to take a qt shy of 5 gals (2 each 2.5 gal containers). So that is app .048 oz per mile, per 1000 miles = 48 oz/1.5 qt consumption. I made a beeline to the dealer and they took the car in right away. They seemed to be ok with me in the bays watching the proceedings. The techs actually performed a fine and thoughtful job.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,908
    I probably forgot to put in the costs for the general discussion. The BLUE DEF (ad blue) is available at a few places, WalMart being one of them, @ 13.99 per 2.5 gal container. So if we use 2 containers (27.98 ) for 15,000 miles the costs break down as such"

    per mile .0018653

    @ 30 mpg .055959 cents per gal

    per 1000 miles - $1.86
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Did you need to take it to the dealer to put it in? It's covered under BMW's 4 year / 50k included service plan, but I thought it was something I also could do myself - as in filling windshield fluid?

    P.S. Thanks for the previous post on your inventory data source.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,908
    edited October 2012
    The answer is yes. They do not want to give you the materials and let you do it. The dispensing system is a bit interesting , as it is designed to limit spillage in a "jerry rigged" sort of way. The solution is corrosive if allowed to come in contact with even galvanized and painted sheet metal. So neutralization and wipe up is a must, upon spillage.
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