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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 41,296
    Looks like the consensus is that they'll sell handily Flightnurse. Assuming there's not a huge premium for the diesel option.

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  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,967
    edited February 2013
    I just ran this very quickly in the USED section of edmunds.com, for the 2012 VW T Sport's diesel/gasser (20,000 miles).

    The upshot is one pays 3,498 DIESEL premium (MSRP). On the paper comparison of RESALE between the two, the difference (all things being equal) is an $1,138 dollar diesel premium. (UPSHOT: anyone can run their particular numbers in the same manner)

    I took the liberty of factoring 20,000 miles @ real world 20/30 mpg. Fuel consumption is 1,000 gals PUG vs 667 gals ULSD (=333.3 gals more PUG, 50% fuel SAVINGS). SO at corner store PUG prices $4.05* 333.3 gals that is $1,350.

    So, if you run them side by side, then that is PUG @$4.05 x 1000= $4,050-$2,795=$1,255. So either with the fuel SAVINGS or run along side, essentially B/E is in the first year. (between the 10th to 11 month).

    So over the course of say a 60 mo/5 year payment plan savings are a min of 1255 x 4 years or $5020.
  • michaellnomichaellno Posts: 4,300
    I took the liberty of factoring 20,000 miles real world 20/30 mpg. Fuel consumption is 1,000 gals PUG vs 667 gals ULSD (=333.3 gals more PUG, 50% fuel SAVINGS). SO at corner store PUG prices $4.05* 333.3 gals that is $1,350.

    So, if you run them side by side, then that is PUG $4.05 x 1000= $4,050-$2,795=$1,255. So either with the fuel SAVINGS or run along side, essentially B/E is in the first year. (between the 10th to 11 month).

    So over the course of say a 60 mo/5 year payment plan savings are a min of 1255 x 4 years or $5020.


    I've been following this discussion closely. I think the numbers depend on the cost of PUG and ULSD in your area.

    I'll use the same miles (20,000) and MPG (20 gas / 30 diesel) that you're using, but when I plug in the Gas Buddy prices for a local Shell station in my town in Colorado, I get the following:

    PUG: $3.57 * 1000 = $3570 - annual fuel costs
    ULSD: $3.86 * 667 = $2575 - annual fuel costs

    Delta is $995 per year ... if the diesel version is $3498 more expensive (MSRP), it will take 3.5 years to break even, not the 10 or 11 months you're showing. Meaning, the total savings for the 5 year note is only $1500 ($995 x 1.5).

    Unless my math is wrong .... ;)
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,447
    Very true - there is a large difference in price in my area as well. Also, when you use regular gas instead of premium it takes away even more of the advantage. Don't Jeeps run on regular?
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,967
    edited February 2013
    ..."I've been following this discussion closely. I think the numbers depend on the cost of PUG and ULSD in your area. "...

    Of course it does ! I said that up front (defacto) ! ? YOU said it also ! ? So is it a stretch to say you agree? So on the 1,138 diesel RESALE difference and ONLY $955 delta (in your area) that is more like 1.19 years. A difference is expected, unless you have the same numbers, which you indicate you DON'T.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    The Pentastar V6 is indeed designed to run on regular gas.

    Dad's got one in his 200 convertible. Nice engine, plenty of power, and responsive.

    I don't think it's particularly fuel efficient, but it might have more to do with the cars it's attached to.
  • tifightertifighter WAPosts: 1,385
    Sounds like the plan is to drop the Durango- to be replaced by the upcoming Grand Wagoneer at the Jeep store.

    15 Leaf / 08 RDX

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    edited February 2013
    Fuelly had the Grand Cherokee CRD from 2008 at 20.2 in 2008, 21.4 in 2007, the only 2 years with a decent sample size. Call it 21.

    The Pentastar gets 18.4-18.7 for the 2 years its been out. Call it 18.5

    So the Pentastar was within 12% of the old CRD, and in many places diesel costs more than regular.

    So the Pentastar ain't so bad.

    But the CRD was awful. Question is, how much better will the new diesel be? I wouldn't be surprised to see mid 20s on fuelly.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,053
    I think it is a new engine completely. It has been in service since 2011 in the EU Jeep GC. The UK rates it at 34 MPG combined which would be a bit over 28 US MPG. About double my Sequoia. RUG today at Costco was $3.99/9. Passed the Shell on the way with diesel at $4.09 and RUG at $4.17. A lot depends on where you live for sure.

    All of which is irrelevant if a person is determined to quit using CA crap gas as I am. I am not worried in the least about the diesel premium when new. That always comes back to you on resale. It all comes down to how much fossil fuel you are wanting to use.
  • michaellnomichaellno Posts: 4,300
    So on the 1,138 diesel RESALE difference and ONLY $955 delta (in your area) that is more like 1.19 years.

    Whoa, whoa, whoa ... help me understand why the resale difference matters here.

    If you sell your car after 1.19 years, I guess you'll save 100% since you won't have anything to drive!

    Again, please note the ;) ...

    My point is that, with a $.30 difference between PUG and ULSD, and driving 20,000 miles a year, and a 50% difference between gas and diesel MPG (20 vs. 30), it would take 3.5 years to recoup the extra purchase cost of the diesel.

    Of course, changing any of those numbers in the above assumptions will change the result.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,967
    edited February 2013
    Actually in a manner of speaking it is a strawman in that not many gassers have diesel equivalents in the US markets. VW, MB, are two examples. It also will not matter much if you never intend resale. As it is turning out most diesel sales are more higher end.

    But as I have duly noted, most gasser folks are just fine with paying a lot more per mile driven FUEL than the very few like model diesels in the passenger vehicle fleet. ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    We've learned that lab MPG figures don't mean much.

    Let's see how this new diesel engine fares here. Fuelly does show results rather quickly.

    Diesels are popular at that site, too. Jetta is #1.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,967
    edited February 2013
    No, I think lab figures cover what you can get in the lab. ;)
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,053
    The one guy that really sold me on the GC had a V6. I think his was 2007 with just over 250k miles. He was selling that one and getting a new one with the V8. Said the V6 was just not enough power. He drove 100 miles round trip in it to work. Lived at the 4000 ft level in the mountains. You need torque with a heavy SUV or PU truck.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    edited February 2013
    Not sure when u had that conversation with him, but in any event, it sounds like he threw in the diesel-potential-towel maybe only months too soon. The diesel would have have given him (more than just) the urge he has found the gas job V6 lacked. Poor guy...it'll really hurt when he finds out that the diesel would have wound his new gas job V8 up in knots trying to do real-world hills/ $ spent on fuel.

    That said..after being very very influenced by the USA/Cdn Jeep Liberty diesel emission'd-sabotaged VM Motori 2.8 fiasco nightmares, I can honestly say that if I was in the market for this new GC oil burner, I'd be stepping with very deliberate, cautious...almost reserved... steps.
    Gobs of economical, on-demand torque is intoxicating, but at what price if the infatuation is short-lived?

    I almost hate to admit it, but I do have more faith in a potential non-American effort in accomplishing a positive result with this new diesel's entry. Long term.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,053
    My conversation with the GC owner was a couple years ago. Before the diesel GC was a go. At his yearly mileage he may be ready for a new one by the time the 2014s hit our market. I should mention from the looks of his home he is a very successful banker. We were looking at the home across the road while he was cleaning his GC for selling it. I went to ask questions about the property we were looking at and talked mostly about vehicles. I liked his method of selling he parks it close to a super market during the day with a for sale sign. He goes down and meets any prospective buyers without them coming to his home. I have sold several via Craigslist and am getting more uneasy about having people come to my home.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    " and am getting more uneasy about having people come to my home."

    In this day and age, I respect that.
  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 41,296
    edited February 2013
    When I was selling stuff in Boise before our move out here, I would often offer to meet the buyer at the grocery store down the hill. Had three or four people take me up on the offer, and I think many people appreciated it.

    And there was the time I was tire-kicking before buying the '99 van and met someone at Fred Meyer's to look at her car. Got there and she handed us the keys, we got in to test it and the car was dead. I had to jump her car off before saying no thanks. :-)

    In topical news, "In an effort to rebrand diesel and stoke interest in new cleaner-burning diesel car models, Audi recently banded together with other German auto makers and suppliers to launch a website called www.clearlybetterdiesel.org."

    Audi Hopes to Woo U.S. Drivers With Diesel Models (Wall St. Journal)

    Note the comment there by NC biker. :blush:

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  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,967
    edited February 2013
    .."the cars are still a tougher sell than in Europe, where they make up 55% of the market, compared to 3%-5% in the U.S.

    Mr. Killen from Audi said that “a big part of future sales is in education.”

    But the fuel may need more than marketing to attract increasing numbers of U.S. buyers. The question could come down to cost. Gasoline is still cheaper than diesel in the U.S. while European governments tax gasoline more heavily. And diesel-fueled cars tend to cost more than their gasoline-powered counterparts."...

    It to me is very INTERESTING the US markets REWARD INCREASED fuel USE and Europe rewards decreased fuel use. Further evidence is USLD generally is priced more than either PUG/RUG. Further CA taxes ULSD even more than an already stilfling RUG/PUG tax. In that sense, one would almost totally gloss over that ESSENTIAL point, reading the 2nd paragraph quote.

    This is true, even as cost per mile driven fuel for PUG are 45% MORE per mile driven PUG !!!!

    (given VW T TDI real world mpg of 30 mpg vs Acura MDX of 20 mpg in past post, same trip, and with current corner store prices of $4.23/$4.09)

    So for example, given the above parenthesis information, ANY number of miles (cost per : fuel) can be figured.

    So say we use 100,000 miles: * .141 cents/.2045 cents= $14,100 vs $20,450. ULSD (given the same amount of "work" and the fact is MORE expensive , generally per gal than PUG)

    PUG costs $6,350 MORE in fuel or 45% MORE.

    (incidently the Acura MDX costs more than the VWT TDI. So B/E defacto is from the git go!!!! )

    We of course know what the US markets overwhelmingly CHOSE ( does 95% to 97% fit the moniker overwhelming?) . ;) And we wonder wonder why the US is falling behind in math????? :sick:

    Nice shoes by the way ! ;) Is that a visual play on words that Audi wants to increase its "FOOT" print in US markets? :blush:

    That is pretty ironic coming from an "NC biker," given the fact that many to most bikes are sans emissions controls on their PUG/RUG cycles (not to mention SANS noise control) . Even one knows that PUG/RUG puts out (30 to 90 ppm) 2 to 18 TIMES more pollutants than USLD !!! :sick: (15 ppm but nominally delivered at the pumps @ 5 to 10 ppm) But it is seasoned "Al Gore ish" hypocrisy only on a smaller scale .
  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 41,296
    Neither of my bikes have emission controls either. Too much snow around for me to pedal them right now though. :shades:

    (The reason we're behind in math is because we count eleven, twelve, thirteen.... Math savvy countries count ten, ten and one, ten and two, ten and three. Our kids have to jump to "twenty and one" to get back in the groove).

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  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,053
    edited February 2013
    NC biker should get informed as well. UK emissions are much less strict than EPA/CARB. I don't think they use urea injection and their ULSD is not as clean as ours. I don't think they have gone to 10 PPM yet. So they are tied to the 50 PPM that was mandated about the time we went to 15 PPM. The exhaust from my wife's Lexus is much more obnoxious as the exhaust from her grand daughters VW Sportswagen TDI.

    Love the smell of diesel in the morning. Nothing like the smell of biodiesel to raise your craving for McDonald's French Fries.

    PS
    You can keep your silly Metric system. yuck
  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 41,296
    I like my metric tape measure. But the counting theory is based on language differences.

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  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,967
    edited February 2013
    Urea solutions in the states anyway are handled by companies that make (like) "PEAK" coolant/antifreeze.

    In addition, there are HEFTY fines/penalties for D2/ULSD that exceeds the standard of 15 ppm. On the other hand, the standard for RUG/PUG is @ 30 ppm. If a vendor wants to bring 30 to 90 ppm RUGPUG to market, all they have to do is pay the standard fees for exceeding the 30 ppm standards. :surprise: :blush:
  • :confuse: Just to correct some misinformation..........

    ULSD in the UK is 10ppm Sulphur content and has been since 2011. Same ULSD is also now, (since start of 2012), mandated for use in all railroad diesel locomotives. We haven't seen 50ppm for years and years. Indeed, common sense would tell you that our huge population of diesel cars, (German, French, Swedish, Japanese etc), would simply be killed by 50ppm gunk. 10ppm is, of course an EU Standard.

    Also............UK pricing for Gasoline and ULSD includes exactly the same levels of taxation for each fuel. Gasoline is cheaper than ULSD by approx 7 pence per litre, (£0.07 per litre), but diesel cars are still the best sellers. MPG gains generally outweigh the cost difference. Local prices to-day are :

    Gasoline : £1.349 per litre

    ULSD : £1.419 per litre

    You can do your own calculations to get to $/USG.

    Yes we buy our fuels in Litres but calculate our economy in MPG. Some things are hard to change. :blush:
  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 41,296
    edited February 2013
    What's your take on NC Riders' comment on that linked site? I don't remember getting killed by fumes the few times I've traveled over there, but it's been a few years now.

    My sister tries to go over to England most every Spring for the gardens and she usually rents a car. I keep waiting for her to wind up with a diesel and then put gasoline in it (that'd be just like her too). She usually rents the cheapest models she can get though, so maybe that's why she winds up with gassers.

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I think his was 2007 ... the V6 was just not enough power

    Let's keep in mind the Pentastar V6 is a lot more powerful. Back in 07 the V6 made only 210hp, the small V8 had 235.

    Today's Pentastar makes 260hp, more then the old V8 did.

    Even torque output is good - 290 lb-ft.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    since it's being debuted in Europe, if an internal-combustion engine is part of the motivation, there's a good chance it could be Subaru's boxer diesel.

    Read more: http://www.trucktrend.com/features/news/2013/163_news130111_subaru_teases_viziv_- concept/viewall.html#ixzz2KhzRZbtt
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    I can't speak for England, but I usually spend anywhere from 2-4 weeks a year with friends in Germany, based out of a small village 50KM north of Frankfurt.

    Germany is full of diesels, and the air quality I have observed there over the last 10 years or so has been excellent. Until smoking was all but banned in Germany, the atmosphere was 1000 times worse in a pub or a restaurant than on the street/highway.

    That's my take on it, anyway...
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,968
    I've never seen air quality issues there, either. I wasn't there in 1955 so I don't know what that was like when everyone was polluted, but today - no worse than here, for sure. Well, Berlin can be kind of stinky in the winter, drainage issues - but that's a different problem :shades:
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    IIRC, Berlin was built on the top of an old lake bed...
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