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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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Comments

  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaPosts: 394
    Another interesting point is that up here in Canada diesel is normally priced closer to regular ( slightly above or below) and is often lower priced than reg. I know there are still taxation differences likely, but still something to ponder ( ie. why do the American governments want shipping for food etc to be higher than it needs to be?).
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,053
    The theory on language being a barrier to learning math does not ring true. I think it is more our system of education that wastes a lot of valuable time in class teaching Multicultural BS and social engineering. That and a total lack of discipline in classes starting in kindergarten. Our school systems are a big mess. A big waste of tax payers money.
  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 41,296
    edited February 2013
    The real problem is all the diesel fumes from the idling school buses leaking into the classroom making everyone dumber. :P

    Moderator
    Minivan fan. Feel free to message or email me - stever@edmunds.com.

  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    I have limited experience in European education, but I was once taken to "show & tell" by my German friend's 8th grader, and I was the show/tell subject/item.

    It was in 2002, IIRC.

    From what I saw there, at least in this classroom, there was far more emphasis on world geography, culture, etc. During this educational term, the kids were focusing on the USA, and each kid was assigned a state. Being from SC, my daughter's friend had picked SC to be her state. So, I got to do a "song and dance" about SC.

    They weren't focused just on the USA, either. During other terms, the kids focused on Europe, Asia, the Middle East and Africa.

    I have to admit, I was really impressed with the level of questions and understanding these kids had about the world. This was a public school, and every kid in her class spoke conversational English... Not perfect, but certainly conversational.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    edited February 2013
    And the word Canada never came up? Not even once?? :(

    What a sheltered life those poor kids led....lead still maybe?.. :(

    Yet we have a significant German immigrant presence here..and not just recently..
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    Oops! My omission. All of NA and SA should have been included in my comment...

    Funny. Those kids knew every state in the USA by name.

    Wanna bet what % of US 8th graders know the states of Germany? The countries in the EU? HOW many countries in the EU?

    How many USA HS graduates know any of he above?

    And, we wonder what's wrong with our educational system...
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,053
    edited February 2013
    Funny. Those kids knew every state in the USA by name.

    Wanna bet what % of US 8th graders know the states of Germany? The countries in the EU? HOW many countries in the EU?

    How many USA HS graduates know any of he above?


    You could ask college kids those questions in the USA and get mostly blank stares. I had to memorize the capitols of every state. If you did not pass the test you got bad grades. Today they don't want to give kids bad grades for fear they will be traumatized. We are NOT getting our money's worth on education in the USA. Germany spends half what we spend in CA per student year. A kid that does excel is rewarded with a good job. My nephew is in his senior year at UCSD on a math scholarship. He was just flown to TX for an interview and will be going to work upon graduation. Part of the brain drain out of CA to TX. Anyone with money that stays here is crazy.

    Probably because you could buy diesel cars in TX while they were banned here. :P
  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 41,296
    Best course I ever took was a research class. You can look all that stuff up in about five seconds. ;)

    "Ford Motor Co.'s chief operating officer said Monday the automaker is prepared to act quickly should there be a spike in demand for diesel-powered automobiles.

    "If we see diesels start to take off here in the U.S., we can react very quickly," said Mark Fields, speaking to students and faculty at the University of Michigan's Ross School of Business. Fields attributed the flexibility to the fact Ford sells diesel-powered vehicles in other regions, particularly Europe, and Ford's global platform strategy."

    Ford: 'We can react very quickly' if diesel demand rises (Detroit News)

    Moderator
    Minivan fan. Feel free to message or email me - stever@edmunds.com.

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,053
    The question is this? Can Ford compete with VW. The Focus diesel sold in the UK gets about 10 MPG Imp less than the Golf it would compete against. It is a lot smaller than the Jetta and gets the same combined mileage. And it is not as clean as the VW sold in the EU. Price looks comparable.

    I hope they give it a shot. I could like a diesel Explorer. I doubt they are here before I buy my last vehicle.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,967
    edited February 2013
    In theory then, ANY oem that does a world wide diesel is similarly "poised" , which is literally almost EVERY oem. In effect this has been so for easily 10 to 20 years. So I think it is easy to see how "quickly they actually have reacted. I think this is a "wanna be" shot across the bow of oems that have actually brought passenger CAR diesels to the US market, specifically VW A. I can tell VW is literally quaking in their boots @ the Chatanooga TN US Passat plant where 20% of the Passats are diesel. Where is Ford's ( and GM and Chysler's) NEW billion dollar + US plant/s that puts together 20% Ford diesels?

    Now you have to give Ford, GM and Chysler for having trio handedly created the 250/2500 and above larger V8 TDI "light" truck markets, albeit niche niche markets!!??. Now they truly have been on the US markets for literally decades. The big three have had NO foreign competition in these markets !! In fact they were behind the 5% of diesels and were the majority of the diesel markets, when the US policy makers policies had the effect of chopping that to 3% passenger diesels. Is Ford really going to bring passenger car diesels to the US markets because MB and BMW are? I think this is the kind of talk that was made for Budweiser commercials, after about 10 too many beers. and multiple trips to the lady's room. :P Reality proves this kind of bravado as not credible in the real world.

    It is like me saying I have been driving a Ford Focus diesel for the last 10 years and 180,000 miles. It simply would not be real world credible.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I wonder if it is sportier, though, maybe more like a GTD model?
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,053
    edited February 2013
    They both have 2.0L diesels with 6 speed shiftable auto transmissions. I picked the sportiest of both. It was the Golf GT, not the GTD. It was priced at $24,880 GBP. The Ford Focus Titanium X 2.0 TDCi is a hatch that sells for $24,900 GBP.

    Focus combined UK MPG = 53.3 CO2 = 134 G/KM
    Golf combined UK MPG = 62.8 CO2 = 119 G/KM

    They don't show the Golf GTD available in the UK.

    Volkswagen, bring the GTD to the U.S. exactly as it is here. Don't change a thing. Give us the adjustable suspension, the summer tires, the perfectly calibrated ESC that can be turned off. It's extremely planted, has natural steering and very little body roll. Love it.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    With their success in racing it would make sense to follow up with performance diesels.
  • tifightertifighter WAPosts: 1,385
    Well we know they have federalized the 3.2 inline 5 for the 2014 Transit, so they will have something that's close to deployment for, say, Taurus/Edge size and up. Explorer and the F150 are no-brainers if they get serious. Might be a bit big for the Fusion, though.

    15 Leaf / 08 RDX

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,967
    edited February 2013
    I think we are also seeing the much increased torque given even a slight increase in cu in/ fractions of a liter. Further it would seem illogical to put the 3.2 l in something like the Taurus/Edge, Explorer/F150. Further, it almost seems a complete waste for the big three NOT to do a small block(V-8) turbo diesel, ala 350 cu in on down (5.8 L to 3.5 L) This range of size, in my opinion has the POTENTIAL to dominate the turbo diesel segment for a host of larger cars and light trucks. Stump pulling torque as represented in current 2/250/2500 series "light" (really heavy) trucks are really only for a niche (aka SMALL) market segment. The PU/SUV/large car segment is fully 75% of the passenger vehicle fleet where a small block V8 turbo diesel is absolutely positively a no brainer.
  • tifightertifighter WAPosts: 1,385
    edited February 2013
    it would seem illogical to put the 3.2 l in something like the Taurus/Edge, Explorer/F150

    Illogical to you, but we know Ford believes that the 3.2D is suitable for Transit van use, as they've already announced it for the US market. The Transit is a vehicle for a heavy duty commercial user, so it is hardly a stretch that they could find it suitable for a F150, with its lower payload and non-HD intended usage.

    They already use the ecoboost V6 in the Taurus, Explorer, Flex, various Lincolns, the F150 and upcoming Transit, so its not like Ford does not have a history of applying one engine across a broad spectrum of vehicles. I'm not saying they are going to do it, but it is hardly illogical to think it could be possible.

    15 Leaf / 08 RDX

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,967
    edited February 2013
    ..."Illogical to you,"...

    Indeed that is what I said !!

    There are a host of COSTLY changes and upgrades that has to happen, to put that TDI engine across the products discussed. So if you are saying they are going to do EXACTLY that, then the logic comes at SUBSTANTIAL upgrades in costs. To state the obvious, there was not a PEEP about (needed/required) upgrades. This lack is a HUGE clue.

    Using the common parts bin and platforms make a lot of sense. Again VW has been doing it across many models and for many years.

    So for example to put the 3.0 L TDI that is in the VW Touareg into a VW Passat, which has the 2.0 L TDI, would be a literal and figurative logistical/cost nightmare. No matter how cool it might be. As you know the 2.0 L TDI is on the Passat, Jetta, Golf, NB, etc to name a few, off the top of my head.
  • tifightertifighter WAPosts: 1,385
    Who said it would not be costly? From the article-

    "But if market demand rises for diesel-powered vehicles, which he said come at a $3,000 to $4,000 premium compared to gasoline-powered engines, Ford is in a favorable position because of its diesel-heavy European lineup."

    Regarding 'not a PEEP about upgrades'...he was giving a speech to U Michigan students, why would he even get into that? They are simply acknowledging that diesel is on the table as an option. I'm sure they'll wait to see how the Cruze, new 6, rumored 2015 Titan etc sell. If they take off, then they have the ability to react. Which is what he said.

    15 Leaf / 08 RDX

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,967
    edited February 2013
    ZZZZZZZZZZZ !! Wake me when Ford has a passegner car diesel. I might have 400k miles on my 2003 Jetta TDI by then. ;) Really the question would be why would he NOT !! ??

    Edmunds lists 1 FORD 6.7 L diesel, 2013 F-450 Super Duty Crew Cab.

    The MSRP ranges from 50k to 67k.

    You got to like that 800# ft of torque ;)
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,053
    Ford is selling their latest generation Ranger T6 with two diesel engines including the inline 5 cylinder. Unfortunately Ford does not want to take a chance on killing their cash cow F150 sales with this much more eco friendly PU truck.

    The new Ranger will be available in 4x2 and 4x4 with three engines:

    2.5L Duratec (L5-VE) petrol engine (122 kW & 226Nm) mated with a 5-speed manual transmission
    2.2L Duratorq TDCi ("PUMA" ZSD-422) diesel engine (88 kW & 285Nm; 92 kW & 330Nm or 110 kW & 375Nm) consumes as little as 7.6 L/100 km (37.2 mpg-imp or 30.9 mpg-US) with choices of 6-speed manual or automatic transmission
    3.2L Duratorq TDCi ("PUMA" P5AT) diesel engine (147 kW & 470 Nm) at 8.4 L/100 km (33.6 mpg-imp or 28.0 mpg-US) with choices of 6-speed manual or automatic transmission
    wiki
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,967
    edited February 2013
    I take it we are talking WORLD ( other than US) market/s Ford Ranger T6 trucks. :confuse: :lemon:
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,053
    This is Ford's main truck outside the USA. No Rangers built in the USA any longer. This is a completely new Ranger as of 2012. They shut the Ranger factory down here. I think if the Chicken tax was not still alive and well they would have kept selling at least the new gas model Ranger here.

    Last compact pickup rolls off the line this week.

    by Paul A. Eisenstein on Dec.13, 2011

    The auto industry is back and providing one of the few sources of new jobs in an otherwise struggling U.S. economy. Or so one might believe in most parts of the country. Just don’t try to convince the workers at Ford’s Twin Cities Assembly Plant.

    The maker hasn’t set a specific time yet but sometime around Friday it is expected that the last Ford Ranger will roll down the assembly line and the 86-year-old plant, located just outside Minneapolis, will finally shut down.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Further, it almost seems a complete waste for the big three NOT to do a small block(V-8) turbo diesel,

    small block V8 turbo diesel is absolutely positively a no brainer.


    I sure don't have the same level of faith in a V8 diesel as you seem to have. I'm not even convinced that these V6's have any really long longevity potential. You can go back as many years as you want and include heavy truck, industrial generator, excavator, bulldozer etc use, ALL of those that used V diesels just don't have the longevity potential as an inline block per dollar spent over the life of the unit. While Detroit did have some V's as 2 stroke diesels that actually did sorta last, they put most owners in the poor-house just fueling them.

    As for Ford's new V6 F150 TD, I don't care how much so-called presale testing they did...I don't totally trust Ford nor their claims...let's get some miles on these engines in the general public's hands before claiming them as an overall good and competent engine vs dollar spent over life of use.

    Heard a 7.4 go by my drive today...gosh that thing sounded TERRIBLE! And it was not a very old Ford...my guess is the owner also is worried big-time about his choice in going with a V8 NA diesel. Now while I am slinging mud, I am quite willing to include Japanese V8's too. My neighbour had the Isuzu V8 in his big dually Chev and while it pulled well and was not too too bad on fuel, and was quite a quiet motor, at (only) 180000 km it needed over 7 grand spent on it. Seals, injectors, numerous seals BTW, and turbo and intake manifold issues. Only 112000 miles! It was a 65 or 70 THOUSAND dollar truck!

    Inline blocks are best for diesel use and longevity, IMO.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    edited February 2013
    Wake me when Ford has a passegner car diesel. I might have 400k miles on my 2003 Jetta TDI by then.

    I know you love your little Jetta, and to be honest, I do too although don't have the same expectation of miles/$ spent that you seem to...not without some $eriou$ dollar input (there is a very probable chance you will have to deal with probably two sets of injectors, one turbo and one fuel injection pump before you will see 400000 miles. All super expensive..the injectors being the most affordable of those items.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,967
    That is fine. There simply are not a lot of experiences with diesels, let alone a comparison between I5, I6, V6. Given what I know about Fords, I would not be an early adopter of their diesel products.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,967
    edited February 2013
    I really don't know if it is love so much as a reasonable expectation of longer life. I really don't know why you would have an expectation of long life on a TDI, especially if you don't have one !?

    @ 180,000 miles it is running like the proverbial top. Again I have been running 30,000 miles OCI's. I am on the oem set of injectors, turbo and injection pump. A great expectation for a 236 premium over a 1.8T VW Jetta 2003? ;)
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,447
    Gas engines can last too. My brother has 350,000 miles on his Infinity G-20. The problem is the rest of the car has to last as well. I have only 230,000 miles on my '90 Acura Integra, but at 23 years old the stuffing in the seats is starting to rot, and some rust is starting to show through. The engine may last another 100,000 miles, but not sure the rest of the car will. I love the fact that diesels last, but nowadays all engines are capable of 200k.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Hit the junk yard and swap out just the seats.

    ruking also, do GTI seats fit in yours?
  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 41,296
    At 182k and 13 years, I have niggling little stuff happening, like hard to access dash lights burning out.

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    That happened to my Miata's stereo, albeit slowly. First the top 3rd went dim. Then the middle. Then the bottom. Still worked but I saw nothing in the display, funny.

    It was about 16 years old so I just replaced the whole head unit myself.

    I kinda regret selling that car.

    Back on topic....wonder if the SkyActiv-D would wedge in to the ND Miata? :shades:
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