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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Why does VW call that a dry sump transmission? It must use gear oil for gear lubing. I assume the 'dry' part is that the clutch discs run dry, as opposed to being immersed in oil, as in many bike transmissions. As for longevity, usually the immersed type lasts longer. I suspect there must be fewer parasitic losses with dry clutch use. I also wonder what happens to the clutch wear dust in a DSG? I guess it has a bell housing similar to a traditional std tranny. Yet any cross section pic I have seen it seems that the area where clutches engage are sealed, and you would think that dust debris would muddy the many servo operations etc.

    Is this DSG trans considered to be less maintenance demanding than a hydraulic auto? Do they have longer life-expectancy predictions than a traditional auto?
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,762
    edited August 2013
    Perhaps the way I wrote it could have conveyed more information. Current DSG is a 6 speed (shiftable) "wet" sump. I read a few articles saying VW is working on a DSG with 8 speed (shiftable also) AND it is destined to be of dry sump design. Current technical details, I do not think are out.

    Current DSG has an oem recommended 40,000 miles fluid AND filter change. It is not unlike an oil change, albeit less accessible. It does take specific synthetic fluids, filter and a special tool or two ( if one DIY's). So (swag ONLY) the DRY SUMP will have a much longer to life time shelf life. Now LIFE ( 6speed M/T and 8 speed A/T) is more my language. :shades: This 40k miles scheduled maintenance item seems to be a source of gas and can be a deal breaker for some. Actually, I was skeptical at first. For the gas it caused, VW stepped up and slapped a 10 year/100,000 miles DSG ONLY warranty. The wife and commute buddy wanted an automatic. They both love the 09 Jetta with DSG. Me? Jury needs 340,000 more miles to decide. :confuse: I'd be happy with 300k to 500k with no DSG breakdown. :surprise: I would be just fine with a 6 speed manual, ala MINUS - $1,100 to boot.

    So if you are ready for a TMI between the 6 speed DSG and the 8 speed A/T, I can follow up with another post. :shades:
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    edited August 2013
    yes please

    Also, regarding the 40k interval, they must impose a time limit too? That one is the one that always sticks in my craw, as I usually run out of time long before miles. And if you don't do the required maintenance interval on time, they can use that as an excuse to disallow wty in the future if you are unfortunate enough to have a premature failure of some sort.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,762
    edited August 2013
    To answer your first question, it seems strictly to be mileage driven. NO, not to my knowledge on the time limit for DSG fluid change. As you know, a A/T, DSG is more of a closed system and is not subject to the byproducts (of combustion, etc) as in motor oil. I know the (wet sump) DSG does generate some waste byproducts of a dual clutch system, hence a filter (looks like a mini motor oil filter).

    So the TMI is BOTH (DSG & A/T) can be UP/DOWN shiftable. Combined with the NO fuel drawn on downgrade, I use (both) to maintain space cushion (downshift primarily, up shift to take road transitions, throttle only if the road transition calls for it) , and the BETTER mpg really takes care of itself (due to no fuel draw) . I do know that if I was more glued to the tach, I can probably GREATLY improve on the 44 mpg (Jetta) and 39 mpg (Touareg). There are a few spin off consequences. I use brakes far less (almost exponentially less) and because people @ my six freak out not seeing predictable brake lamps, tend to follow MUCH farther back.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    "Twin Power Turbo"

    So it would suggest that BMW is also twin turbo'ing their 4 cyl. There is a common theme happening here. Big power and torque from relatively small displacements with the use of twin turbos and white handkerchief type exhaust emissions at the tailpipe by using DEF fluid in those smaller displacements also.

    I'm going to predict that VW will revive new spec capabilities for their TDI in Golf/Jetta/Passat use, by going the DEF route also. In the beginning, there was this perception that "oh no...I gotta buy DEF too? That will erase my fuel savings and be an extra annoyance to boot." I'm sure MB charging $80 to $100. for a DEF service didn't help with this misperception. So FF a couple years (18 months?) and we are starting to learn that using DEF is not only not expensive, it is also infrequent enough that it can't really be considered much of an inconvenience either, unless you are easily perturbed. I think placing the fill pipe beside the fuel fill area is a good route to go also, (under the hood would be best, IMO) although I wonder if BMW might regret the font style choice of that % figure behind the 8 on the fuel cap. (referencing max ratio of biodiesel).
    I had to get my 3.25 glasses before I could see that it said "Max 8%" not Max 87...as in 87 octane.. :sick:

    They could also offer an upscale performance option in the Passat and Golf by offering AWD by twin turbo'ing their present 2.0 dump the burning of diesel fuel to burn off particulates in the cat by using DEF also. And if they were really smart, they'd offer the Passat with that same pkg as a wagon. One can hope..
    MB will probably beat them to it tho with the C250..
    Good times ahead..
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Well that is great to know! I think even with crankcase oil change intervals, when they say 7-10000 miles or 6 months to a year what ever comes first, it is an overkill make work project for them (the dealers) if someone literally only does 2500 miles, each trip at least 30 minutes run time, so IOWs, the engine being brought right up to full operting temps even in the winter, yet say that you should replace that perfectly good oil after 6 months, is just a get-outta-wty-claim excuse later if you don't follow their schedule closely, so not having a time limit always piques my interest with some of these maintenance chores. I respect that.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,873
    30 some years ago I used to put about a quarter gallon of gasoline in when I filled up my diesel in the winter to prevent frozen fuel lines. Never gave me a problem.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    What vehicle? How many miles did you put on it before parting with it?

    I'd love to see the look on their face at VW or MB when you asked if it was ok to mix gas with ULSD at a 4:1 ratio, lol..

    A stove oil mix with D2 is a much better way to fend of waxing. Engine longevity-wise at least.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,873
    Mercedes 240D, but I think you misread my post. I said a quarter GALLON, not a quarter tank !!!

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,762
    edited August 2013
    In one of the so called "environmental" states, the electricity portion prices of 131-200% of baseline is .31114 cents per Kwh ! In my case, a plug in electric car would get billed at THE HIGHEST rates even as the continued and boring clarion call is to consume LESS electricity, albeit along with PENALTIES !!!

    Its hard to consume LESS electrical energy, when one consumes MORE electrical energy !? Or, ... is that a DUH... they hope you do not see?

    So when plug in electrical Kwh are figured @ 8 cents (or less), 31+ cents is 389% MORE. NO good deeds go unpunished and unpenalized ! :sick: :lemon:

    On the other side (of the bill) it is equally obvious why there are little to NONE, natural gas vehicles ! @ $1.00072 per therm. This is on a 112 % mark up !! And we vilify the oil companies (Shell, Chevron, etc) for making 9 cents on the dollar (in a good year) !!??? :lemon:
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Oh..yes..you are correct..phew..

    Still though...personally I'd have a bit of a hand shake as I was diluting my (apprx 10 Imp gallon tank if memory serves?) with gas.. :blush:

    Nowadays you can usually start to see your mpg progressively fall like clockwork starting in Sept (ya they seem to start early on the 49th) and get lower and lower come Nov. By then they got us on full-on winter fuel.

    When I last had my diesels, I used to buy up summer fuel in jerry cans and do my own mix depending on the wx we were having at the time. I musta been getting my ratios right cuz have never had a waxing issue yet..touch wood..

    But nowadays, I think that most new tech uses fuel line heaters present even at filters, not only to assist cold wx starting, but as part of the normal emission and mpg expectation systems.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,899
    In the Arctic all we could get was number one diesel, AKA kerosene and JetA. That was to avoid gelling. Ran fine, not sure how good the mileage was. mostly short 2-3 mile trips.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    I think there would be a quite a noticeable efficiency hit on D1, if you ever checked it up there. No free rides..even with a diesel.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,244
    No free rides..even with a diesel.

    That's why bunker fuel (for ships) needs to be heated to even flow.

    It's all relative.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,899
    Our mechanic filled the trucks each morning from our gravity feed tank. No one worried about how much was being used. It was oil that paid our wages.
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,171
    Don't forget the zero-mpg idling time. That was what - September 15 to June 1? :shades:

    Really should be looking at gallons per mile.

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  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,762
    edited August 2013
    VW T TDI = .03125 gal., :confuse: translation 4 oz, :confuse: translation 32 mpg. ;) So here is a good one, if you are trying to keep awake while heading down the desert highway, what percentage over .03125 gal does it take to run the A/C? :sick: Diesels are also normally express in operation per hour.

    So you know why the Hubble Telescope had to be fixed (in space no less) right? Some engineer or groups of them did calc 's in metric and didn't translate to ENGRISH measures ! Or was that the other way around? :sick:

    Looks like we are setting up those two ROGUE agents from Cincinatti for the fall? BAD VIDEO ! :P
  • xwesxxwesx Fairbanks, AlaskaPosts: 8,396
    The folks I've talked to about summer vs. winter diesel efficiency state that the seasonal difference is significant (~35%). Seat of the pants: Given that all the gasoline vehicles I use tend to be ~20% different by season, I'd attribute around 15% (if not a little more) to the fact that D1 has less energy per gallon than D2.

    Of course, the easier way to do that would be to look up the BTU difference between the two, but that would require a little research, and I'm not up for that right now..... :P
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,899
    Got to the dealer 2:45 and it was sitting out front ready to go. Salesman spent hour and 45 minutes showing us all the different gadgets including linking my wife's old Cell phone. It was running most of the time with the low fuel indicator on. Had 38 miles when we picked it up. They trucked it from AZ. I think this saddle brown is lighter than the other one we looked at. My wife went over every inch of the outside looking for dings, dents or chips. It is clean. No flaws or chips in the glass. When we were about done with orientation he said let's drive across the street and fill it up. That was a first for me on new vehicles including the Passat TDI I bought in Portland. One tire was over pressure one pound so we swung back through the shop and the Salesman adjusted it. What a pleasure dealing with VW of Kearney Mesa.

    By contrast when we bought the new Sequoia it was basically handing us the keys and a handshake. That Toyota dealer is out of business. I found a flaw in the glass when we got home and Toyota would not fix it. Tailgate lifts never worked well and they would not replace. Good riddance to Toyota. My Wife's GD is loving it as a kid hauler. It is a big safe SUV and still under the 7 year warranty I bought. I wish her well with it.

    The trip home from the dealer was hell. If I had to fight that kind of traffic every day going to work and coming home I would slit my Wrist. Or look for a job elsewhere. Oh, I guess that was what I did do because of stinking traffic in 1970.
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,171
    edited August 2013
    Kewl, and you even got a free tank of gas fuel. :shades:

    Please take a few minutes and visit the Dealer Ratings and Reviews link under the Car Reviews tab above and write up a review. Thanks!

    What'd you do, get on the 805 or something going home?

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  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,580
    Fun day! Now you can get into the diesel habit of at least loosely tracking mpg. I didn't track mine today, average speed on my drive home from work was 14mph - I don't want to know :sick:
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,762
    edited August 2013
    Congratulations, on your new VW T TDI, Luxury, White on Saddle Brown !

    To add to your (flawless) inspection experiences, all three of my TDI's were also. I am glad to see that seems to be a goal VWA and dealers shoot for. It is nice to know the dealers all top off the fuel tank. Your salesman's 1.75 hour talk brought a smile to my face. Mine spoke like an auctioneer in full sales mode, for app the same time as yours spoke.(2 hours) I actually went back for the customer satisfaction first visit and asked to get the once over (30 days later) @ that time I got a salesman who hailed from where the Touareg was made, so I got another hour on the European slant to this model, and another 1.25 hrs on the functionality and 15 min Q& A. I take it you and your wife had a good experience ! ?

    TMI: low fuel warning lamp/buzzer on the VW T TDI normally comes on a little after 23 gals/26.4 gal tank. So in effect, you had app 3.4 gals to find fuel. So how much D2 did it TAKE in the real world?
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,899
    We came across the 52 from the 163. 5 oclock traffic. I will leave a review. Plan to take a mountain cruise up for breakfast in the morning. Wife's turn to drive. It is nice handling and Sirius helped the sections of stop n go traffic. Wife is reading the manual right now. I just get in and drive. Do have to set up Homelink in the morning for the garage door.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,899
    I was so excited to get on the road I did not pay attention to how much D2 he put in. I know he popped it twice. He also told me any time he is there to come in and he will fill it up for us and give it a wash. I also found out a loaner comes if they need to keep the vehicle. Not with Toyota it don't. You are right VW is serious about service. At least this dealer. Part of Group one.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,899
    Just looking at the laminated Monroney Sticker laying in the back. It has a dealer added equipment sticker taped to the back. Our sale was based on the MSRP of $55,235. The dealer had installed a Desert Protection package $695, 5 year warranty vehicle recovery $229, Window tint $399 and lifetime Nitrogen for $99. For a total price of $56,657. The way it was taped to the back of the sticker you would not see it. It came from a dealer in Scottsdale.

    Googling the package it seems buyers from the AZ dealer this car came from were dinged from $1000 to $1700 for the Desert Protection package. Still don't know what it is or does.
  • ohenryxohenryx Posts: 285
    edited August 2013
    msg 10308 Gagrice You are right VW is serious about service. At least this dealer.

    The ex and I purchased a Passat in 2008. The dealer we purchased from didn't even get all of the film off of the paint. And one of the rear fenders was missing a brace and flopping in the wind. Luckily for us, the dealer we used for service was exemplary. With VW, it seems to vary quite a bit from dealer to dealer.

    msg 10303 gagrice Salesman spent hour and 45 minutes showing us all the different gadgets including linking my wife's old Cell phone.

    My most recent new car delivery was not as pleasant, and they did indeed hear about it when I filled out their survey.

    Congratulations on your new ride! Many miles of happy motoroing.
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,171
    My sister had a '00 New Beetle with the usual electrical problems they were noted for (mostly the windows). The dealer was just awful but around '06 they must have overhauled the management because they got a lot better. They got so much better my sister put VWs back on her shopping list again, after swearing them off for good a few times. Don't know if VW corporate yelled at them or what but something sure made a difference.

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  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,899
    edited August 2013
    With VW, it seems to vary quite a bit from dealer to dealer.

    That is a fact. The dealer closest to us would have had our business. But they tried to pull a fast one adding $999 to the lease deal they emailed me. And it was not that great of a deal before the bump up. I think waiting was our best move. We got exactly what we wanted and a dealer I feel will be there. Our salesman has only sold two Touaregs in 9 months on the job. But he knows a lot about it. He said the dealership sent them to school on each model.

    He pulled out the heavy rubber mats and replaced with the carpeted ones. The retainers are really slick on the Touareg. No big hook in the floor to snag your shoe getting in and out. They also have the retainers on both sides of the carpet so it stays straight. On the Sequoia it was always working its way around with the single hook in the floor. Probably an after thought when people were getting the floor mats jammed into the accelerator. If I trade in 3 years, I will have those very nice rubber mats to put back in.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,762
    edited August 2013
    I have been a rubber mat convert for a lot of years. Dirt that finds its way into "fabric" carpet, almost literally does not come out, short of replacement. In the best and worse cases, one can wash a rubber mat, air dry it and its good to go back in, aka CLEAN. In most cases, I just unsnap it, (being careful to keep the dirt on the mat) use a nylon tool bench brush to (to get in the curved grooves) and it is normally just fine.
  • dave8697dave8697 Posts: 1,498
    At times, gas is $3.45 and diesel is $4. That makes a 30 mpg gas car on par with a 35 mpg diesel for total fuel cost. Other times the gap is smaller or larger. I fix my own cars 95% of the time, so why would I want to have to learn to fix a new technology? That also applied to EVs. My issue is getting efficient cars under the right foot of more of my family, not getting to $4 fuel. My wife gets 12 mpg avg in the winter, driving the Astro on 10 mile round trips. I manage over 30 mpg avg from my 4 cyl mid-size car. I drive 4 times as much distance but sometimes I think if we traded vehicles, my fuel costs would not even go up. She'd get 27 mpg and I'd squeeze 20 from the Astro.
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