What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

fintail

Are fines a deterrent, or a punitive measure because the perps fooled the know-it-all Feds?

Speaking of the thread title, maybe a decent deal will make one buy a diesel. My workplace manager just picked up a 2013 ML350 Bluetec, ~45K miles, still has a year of warranty, above average option load (P2, nannies, pano, parktronic, 66K sticker) for 35K all in. She wanted a diesel, and loves it, and now I can scare her with my OCD knowledge of MB option configurations, and ICE operation.

ruking1

Too funny X 2 ! Seems like there are good to great deals in your neck of the woods!

Interesting take on the VW Touareg @ # ... aka not diesel! https://youtu.be/UtkocyzLI8g

fintail

Talked to her this morning, she's loving it - more comfortable than her previous car (TSX), and she claims it is beating the Acura in both city and highway mpg.

ruking1

So what made her decide diesel & midsized CUV?

fintail

She had a prior gen MDX before, missed the ride height, and wanted diesel mpg and durability.

ruking1

That is very "logical". Another major reason might be it, fits her lifestyle? The Acura MDX is considered one of the best in the midsized CUV segment. (my) Friends' (3) MDX's, post 19 to 22 mpg in the (209 /418 miles) South Lake Tahoe runs. 12 VW Touareg post 33 mpg overall. (418+ miles)

fintail

I'm not sure why she ditched the MDX - I think she mentioned it was too flashy (which is an odd reason to end up in a MB). I think she appreciates a little character in a car, too.

Today I saw a semi dump truck that was putting out so much smoke that 30 seconds after it passed by, a somewhat thick haze still remained in the air. I sure am glad priorities are in line.

ruking1

The 2016 Acura MDX sports the nine speed AT. The EPA is 27 h. Curiously, the 2015 Acura MDX sports the six speed AT. The EPA is 28 h, 1 mpg better.

Like Fintail, I do not hyper mile the 2012 VW Touareg TDI. I do use the eight speed ATT to minimize trail braking down the mountains (7,427 ft to zero) TDI's have dramatic "no fuel draw" when off the throttle & using the gears.

kyfdx

I noticed that in the A3. Instantaneous fuel consumption display only goes up to 200 mpg. As soon as you let off the gas, it goes to all dashes.

ruking1

The real question is what mpg do you actually post, pen & ink, "fill" the tank scenario? So for example, In posting 49.8 mpg (for 55 to 100 miles, down off the mountains) on the 14 MB GLK 250 BT, the pen and ink, fill the tank scenario is more like 36/38 mpg, 209 one way/418 miles RT.

kyfdx

ruking1 said:

The real question is what mpg do you actually post, pen & ink, fill the tank scenario? So for example, posting 49.8 mpg (for 55 to 100 miles, down off the mountains) on the 14 MB GLK 250 BT. The pen and ink fill the tank scenario is more like 36/38 mpg, 209 one way/418 miles RT.

Well.. I just got it on Saturday. At this rate, it will be three weeks before I can fill it up, to find out.

My 113 mile trip home registered 43.3 mpg (IIRC), but that was just using the OBC. It's pretty spectacular, if it's even within 10% of that.

ruking1

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/news/a30118/vw-emissions-settlement/

Latest?

gagrice

I find the computer to be close to actual. I have all 34,000 miles on a spreadsheet and my average is 26.8 MPG. My Sequoia was barely 15 MPG over 36k miles we owned it. About a 44% increase in miles. Not to mention about half as many fuel stops. If VW buys me out I will go for the MB GLE 300d. I think I would be able to gain another 5 MPG without any change in driving style. What's not to like with a 750 mile range?

henryn

I have found most modern cars to be reasonably accurate with their mpg numbers. Within plus or minus 10% as compared to pen and paper calculations. And with pen and paper calculations, you are faced with how full was the tank when the pump shut off. I don't know about this Passat, but when I owned a 2000 Ford Super Duty diesel, I found that I could get another 4 gallons in the tank after the pump shut off the first time.

kyfdx

henryn said:

I have found most modern cars to be reasonably accurate with their mpg numbers. Within plus or minus 10% as compared to pen and paper calculations. And with pen and paper calculations, you are faced with how full was the tank when the pump shut off. I don't know about this Passat, but when I owned a 2000 Ford Super Duty diesel, I found that I could get another 4 gallons in the tank after the pump shut off the first time.

Over time, my 2006 BMW is within 1%-2% of the mileage recorded on the OBC. I'll guess that the TDI will be very close, as well.

ruking1

So if I told this board I got 49.8 miles a gallon on my MB GLk 250 BT, you'd all would roll your eyes. You probably do now. Could I get 49.8 miles a gallon on a tankful ? ABSOLUTELY ! I'm just not willing to do what it would take for that many miles, aka that tank !

So what I say stands. If you can get 43.3 MPG for the tank, I'd say yippee yahoo! Is it accurate for the number of miles that you, Fintail or I claim? I'd say yes!

As for the variations in tank filling, that is hardly rocket science. All one has to do is fill up the same way each and every time. So for example, I stop at first click off. So if one wants to go four gallons over the first click off, just make sure it's the same each and every time.

stevedebi

Quick question for you guys. We have a 2014 Passat TDI SE, my wife's, and it is her favorite car ever. We are considering keeping it, but the thing she likes most is the power and MPG. I've told her we could get a 1.8T gasser model, and that is an option - but this really is a beloved car for her.

One question is: will the fix to the Passat reduce that MPG and power significantly? It looks like we would get about the same amount of money with a buyback or the fix, to it comes down to other items.

Thanks for any insight.

EDIT: For that matter, if a fix is approved, we could just get a 2016 TDI...

ruking1

It's hard to say, because the fix/es have not been approved! ? Mine was rumored to get a software upgrade with new catalytic converter to a new plumbed urea system. But if someone has an insider's point of view, I'm sure we are all ears!

stevedebi

ruking1 said:

It's hard to say, because the fix/es have not been approved! ? Mine was rumored to get a software upgrade with new catalytic converter to a new plumbed urea system. But if someone has an insider's point of view, I'm sure we are all ears!

Would they likely change the urea system on the Passat? It already has one... Those two don't sound like they will impact MPG or power much.

ruking1

Since you have one already, I would imagine not !

stevedebi

ruking1 said:

Since you have one already, I would imagine not !

If you are referring to our getting a 2016, there are a number of reasons. A two year newer car, and a large down payment available from the settlement, plus VW is likely to be negotiating their prices.

texases

What little I understand about the Passat TDI is that the cheat system cut back on DEF use when off test. My guess is that the fix will result in higher (like twice) the DEF use, but not much else.

gagrice

With the simple fact that most people get well over the EPA estimates on the diesel vehicles, VW should still be well within those estimates with any fix. After 34k miles my overall average is 15% above the EPA estimate. Many folks are getting better than I am. Though I make lots of short trips under 20 miles from sea level to 2000 ft which is home. And they are not all down hill. Interstate 8 goes up and down a lot from SL to 2000 ft. 70-75 MPH is the average speed.

ruking1

12 VW Touareg TDI = EPA 19 c/28 h

14 MB GLK 250 BT = EPA 24c/33 h

henryn

stevedebi said:

Quick question for you guys. We have a 2014 Passat TDI SE, my wife's, and it is her favorite car ever. We are considering keeping it, but the thing she likes most is the power and MPG. I've told her we could get a 1.8T gasser model, and that is an option - but this really is a beloved car for her.

One question is: will the fix to the Passat reduce that MPG and power significantly? It looks like we would get about the same amount of money with a buyback or the fix, to it comes down to other items.

Thanks for any insight.

EDIT: For that matter, if a fix is approved, we could just get a 2016 TDI...

Item 1: There aren't any 2016 TDIs. None, zip, zilch, nada. They were never certified for sale in the USA, and VW apparently has no plans do so now. There may, at some time in the future, be 2017 TDI models. I read (in a different forum) that one VW dealer was taking deposits on his new 2015 model TDIs, hoping to be able to sell them at some point in the future.

I also read that there is a fix in testing, involving a different catalytic converter and new software, that should take care of the emissions problems while not degrading performance or mileage. But all of this is nothing but rumors, really. We will have to wait and see.

stevedebi

henryn said:

stevedebi said:

Quick question for you guys. We have a 2014 Passat TDI SE, my wife's, and it is her favorite car ever. We are considering keeping it, but the thing she likes most is the power and MPG. I've told her we could get a 1.8T gasser model, and that is an option - but this really is a beloved car for her.

One question is: will the fix to the Passat reduce that MPG and power significantly? It looks like we would get about the same amount of money with a buyback or the fix, to it comes down to other items.

Thanks for any insight.

EDIT: For that matter, if a fix is approved, we could just get a 2016 TDI...

Item 1: There aren't any 2016 TDIs. None, zip, zilch, nada. They were never certified for sale in the USA, and VW apparently has no plans do so now. There may, at some time in the future, be 2017 TDI models. I read (in a different forum) that one VW dealer was taking deposits on his new 2015 model TDIs, hoping to be able to sell them at some point in the future.

I also read that there is a fix in testing, involving a different catalytic converter and new software, that should take care of the emissions problems while not degrading performance or mileage. But all of this is nothing but rumors, really. We will have to wait and see.

I'm expecting that VW will probably start selling them again. From what I've read, the 2016 was here but was not delivered for sale.

But who knows, maybe they won't re-introduce them.

gagrice

Is there a light at the end of the tunnel??

Volkswagen AG ADR (OTCMKTS:VLKAY) has been granted preliminary approval by a federal judge over its $14.7 billion settlement with its customers in the US. Earlier in June, the embattled auto giant decided to pay up to $14.7 billion to settle claims for nearly 500,000 over-polluting cars with 2.0-liter diesel engine running on the US streets. The figure includes repairs, plans for buybacks, and payments of up to $10,000 to each of its effected vehicle owners as compensation.

The approval from the federal judge clears the way for the auto maker to put its plans into action and move beyond the diesel emissions scandal; the embarrassing event has scarred its reputation and disrupted sales momentum in the US and abroad. Volkswagen admitted to cheating on diesel emissions tests by rigging its vehicles with a software tool that suppressed carbon and nitrogen oxide emissions from its diesel engines.

http://www.bidnessetc.com/71744-volkswagen-ag-wins-goahead-147-billion-settlement/

Michaell

gagrice said:

Is there a light at the end of the tunnel??

Volkswagen AG ADR (OTCMKTS:VLKAY) has been granted preliminary approval by a federal judge over its $14.7 billion settlement with its customers in the US. Earlier in June, the embattled auto giant decided to pay up to $14.7 billion to settle claims for nearly 500,000 over-polluting cars with 2.0-liter diesel engine running on the US streets. The figure includes repairs, plans for buybacks, and payments of up to $10,000 to each of its effected vehicle owners as compensation.

The approval from the federal judge clears the way for the auto maker to put its plans into action and move beyond the diesel emissions scandal; the embarrassing event has scarred its reputation and disrupted sales momentum in the US and abroad. Volkswagen admitted to cheating on diesel emissions tests by rigging its vehicles with a software tool that suppressed carbon and nitrogen oxide emissions from its diesel engines.

http://www.bidnessetc.com/71744-volkswagen-ag-wins-goahead-147-billion-settlement/

If you haven't already, go check out this thread here at Edmunds. There are 4 regular posters, including a host, who have bought a TDI in the past 10-14 days expressly with the intent to sell it back to VW at a pretty decent profit.

http://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/41955/volkswagen/x/vw-tdi-settlement-buying-a-tdi-now#latest

I'm contemplating it as well, if I can get the wife on board ...

ruking1

Goes to show that the (affected) VW TDI's are even better deals than what I had originally said! ( circa Sept 2015) !

ruking1

This article indicates guess what,... more waiting!? http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2016/0728/VW-diesel-plan-approved-but-buyback-offers-won-t-start-yet

stevedebi

ruking1 said:

This article indicates guess what,... more waiting!? http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2016/0728/VW-diesel-plan-approved-but-buyback-offers-won-t-start-yet

Interesting. The VW site for registering the affected cars indicated the "estimated" date for buy back as 1 Nov, for fix as 8 Nov.

kyfdx

stevedebi said:

ruking1 said:

This article indicates guess what,... more waiting!? http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2016/0728/VW-diesel-plan-approved-but-buyback-offers-won-t-start-yet

Interesting. The VW site for registering the affected cars indicated the "estimated" date for buy back as 1 Nov, for fix as 8 Nov.

Looks to me like the plan is still on the same timeline it has been, since they announced the proposed preliminary agreement on 06/28.

henryn

kyfdx said:

stevedebi said:

ruking1 said:

This article indicates guess what,... more waiting!? http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2016/0728/VW-diesel-plan-approved-but-buyback-offers-won-t-start-yet

Interesting. The VW site for registering the affected cars indicated the "estimated" date for buy back as 1 Nov, for fix as 8 Nov.

Looks to me like the plan is still on the same timeline it has been, since they announced the proposed preliminary agreement on 06/28.

They do seem to be going according to schedule, at least so far. Which is really very surprising to me. Anything involving giant bureaucracies (federal court system, VWofA, CARB) usually slows down to a crawl and schedules go out the window. Luckily for me, I'm not in a hurry.

ruking1

C & D article: http://blog.caranddriver.com/if-you-own-a-cheaty-2-0l-vw-diesel-car-heres-how-much-money-you-can-expect/

kyfdx

ruking1 said:

C & D article: http://blog.caranddriver.com/if-you-own-a-cheaty-2-0l-vw-diesel-car-heres-how-much-money-you-can-expect/

You don't really need to read articles about it. The whole thing is right here:

https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/

ruking1

The link has been there for a long time. (shortly after the GW & VW Road Assist offers were added) It was the link to check SPECIFIC affected VW TDI vehicles . It is also the link to register for the two $500 each . Visa/Debit cards & VW Road Assist. etc., etc. I didn't link it because it's kind of TMI.

kyfdx

ruking1 said:

The link has been there for a long time. (shortly after the GW & VW Road Assist offers) It was the link to check SPECIFIC affected VW TDI vehicles . It is also the link to register for the two $500 each . Visa/Debit cards & VW Road Assist. etc., etc. I didn't link it because it's kind of TMI.

That link that I provided is from the court. No links to VW cars or any other solicitation.

ruking1

To state the obvious, there are many more than the court's link.

ruking1

Survey SAID! https://www.yahoo.com/news/vw-diesel-owners-not-happy-offers-communications-survey-123000591.html

stever

"Mercedes-Benz will take at least a year longer than once planned to introduce the diesel-powered version of the C-class sedan.

“The latest plan is sometime in 2017 (mid-2017 is a reasonable estimate, not firm), but this is certainly subject to change,” the spokesman, Rob Moran, wrote in an email."

Mercedes delays diesel version of C-class sedan (autonews.com - may be subscription only link)

ruking1

..." “We are a little bit in the lower-volume selling for diesels right now, anyhow,” Exler said. “But we would have been there no matter what — because of the launch schedule.”

Exler said diesels account for about 1.2 percent of Mercedes’ U.S. sales. "...

We are glad we were able to get the MB ( diesel) GLK 250 BlueTec when we did. USA is truly missing out on both a stellar 2.1 L diesel engine MATED to great 7 /9 speed AT's !

ruking1

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a30211/why-cvts-are-awesome-transmissions/

Now, here's a big load of blather on the CVT transmission. If it was as good as it is billed, they would ACTUALLY have it in the real world in much greater %'s, on high torque vehicles; such as: Z06, diesel! Not a lot of folks that actually do OWN them, RAVE about them?

stever

Owners are liking them a lot better. The new Civic is getting especially good reviews. Other than the earlier Nissan effort, no one is complaining about reliability either.

fintail

Are there any high power diesel CVTs sold anywhere? I can see one maybe on a 1 liter Eurobox sold as a cheap car to the drones in Brussels who don't want to shell out for a hybrid, but not in anything with real torque.

That Civic review is kind of amusing, makes it almost sound like a clutchless manual - it's so great, but to actually be good, gotta shift for yourself.

fintail

I think the 2.1 is the optimal choice for anything but the heaviest models. Adequate power with exceptional mileage. It would be relatively quick in a C-class, too. It'll be interesting to see if a diesel E returns, or if MB brings over some of the diesel hybrids it offers in markets with more choice.

ruking1 said:

..." “We are a little bit in the lower-volume selling for diesels right now, anyhow,” Exler said. “But we would have been there no matter what — because of the launch schedule.”

Exler said diesels account for about 1.2 percent of Mercedes’ U.S. sales. "...

We are glad we were able to get the MB ( diesel) GLK 250 BlueTec when we did. USA is truly missing out on both a stellar 2.1 L diesel engine MATED to great 7 /9 speed AT's !

ruking1

I would be remiss if I didn't mention that the (diesel) 3.0 L TDI engine is also a SUPERB power plant! OBTW, We are just loving the Aisin 8 speed AT!

While I realize MB has gone to a 9 speed AT, the verdict is still out (in my mind) on the extra 1/2 gear/s.

stever

fintail said:

That Civic review is kind of amusing, makes it almost sound like a clutchless manual - it's so great, but to actually be good, gotta shift for yourself.

We are interested in seeing the Civic hatch when it arrives. And it will have a manual transmission as an option. Doubt that we'd get it since my wife has a "repaired" left leg that she doesn't quite trust. Sounds like the turbo is better matched to the CVT anyway. But the six manual transmission fans left in the country will be pleased to learn that there's another option out there.

ruking1

HC 2.0 L is listed @ 138 # ft (gasser) vs 2.0 L VW TDI's 236# ft or VW's 71% more # ft of torque.The good news here is that most (gasser) people are not in a position to compare the two! Even my family (self admitted) NON "car" people, know the difference! Well, they certainly benefit from much better drivability & certainly mpg. (34 mpg vs 40 mpg)

If the Honda "Ricers" go back to tinkering, the MB 2.1 L posts 369 # ft! To handle that, they will almost have to do a rebuild!? Even @ that, they risk catastrophic grenading!

gagrice

fintail said:

Are there any high power diesel CVTs sold anywhere? I can see one maybe on a 1 liter Eurobox sold as a cheap car to the drones in Brussels who don't want to shell out for a hybrid, but not in anything with real torque.

That Civic review is kind of amusing, makes it almost sound like a clutchless manual - it's so great, but to actually be good, gotta shift for yourself.

Having done my due diligence testing a CVT Subaru, I am not at all impressed. They are probably fine for flat landers. I hated driving on any hill at speed. I would never get used to a screaming engine over worked getting up a long grade. The reason Subarau gave up on selling their fine diesel here was a lack of adequate auto transmission. They are sold where people still buy manual transmissions.

TopGear says it best:
With 200mm of ground clearance and a torque-sapping CVT mated to the petrol whether you like it or not, the Outback’s no driver’s car. For this reason, we’d strongly advise you stick to the diesel instead – a unique flat-four boxer turbo design at that. And although it sounds like a WRX-lite, the flat-four petrol 2.5-litre is nothing of the sort, disappointment further compounded by its standard CVT gearbox.

Michaell

gagrice said:

fintail said:

Are there any high power diesel CVTs sold anywhere? I can see one maybe on a 1 liter Eurobox sold as a cheap car to the drones in Brussels who don't want to shell out for a hybrid, but not in anything with real torque.

That Civic review is kind of amusing, makes it almost sound like a clutchless manual - it's so great, but to actually be good, gotta shift for yourself.

Having done my due diligence testing a CVT Subaru, I am not at all impressed. They are probably fine for flat landers. I hated driving on any hill at speed. I would never get used to a screaming engine over worked getting up a long grade. The reason Subarau gave up on selling their fine diesel here was a lack of adequate auto transmission. They are sold where people still buy manual transmissions.

TopGear says it best:
With 200mm of ground clearance and a torque-sapping CVT mated to the petrol whether you like it or not, the Outback’s no driver’s car. For this reason, we’d strongly advise you stick to the diesel instead – a unique flat-four boxer turbo design at that. And although it sounds like a WRX-lite, the flat-four petrol 2.5-litre is nothing of the sort, disappointment further compounded by its standard CVT gearbox.

Not a diesel, but our 2015 Outback with the 3.6 flat 6 engine has a CVT - something like 250 HP. However, the engineers programmed it to feel like a traditional automatic transmission a majority of the time.

When I most notice the "CVT-ness" is when you are on an uphill climb on the highway with the CC set. Revs gradually increase to keep the car at speed, without a 'kick down' of the transmission to a lower gear.

We get about 21-22 MPG in mostly in town driving - on the one road trip we took, we saw almost 28 MPG over the 2000 miles we drove.