Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

1403404406408409629

Comments

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,495
    We also have an interesting set of circumstances in that of a 215 miles "winter" journey, the 10 to 11% of the miles are prone to real snow and ice and either up to or down from higher altitude mountain roads (7,300 ft). So really snow tires or even chains would be "necessary" for app 10-11% of each leg.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I like that all Foresters and Outbacks are AWD.

    Other makes offer the option but usually force you to compromise packaging or you can't get a manual or even both.

    Audi is close, available on most.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,708
    edited February 2013
    Note that 4WD and AWD are not interchangeable. AWD is largely useless in actual snow other than to get you unstuck or moving again. The only exceptions that I know of are full-time AWD systems like Subaru and Audi have.

    Otherwise, get real 4WD.

    The 2013 Rav4 is AWD and not 4WD. Toyota pulled a fast one on us there.
    The cheapest 4WD that I know if is the Jeep Patriot as it has a diff lock and can be put into full-time AWD (AWD with a diff lock OR that has dual transfer cases is roughly equivalent). The older RAV4s had that as well, which made them a favorite of many in the winter.

    As for a 4Runner? 4WD or just wheel yourself into that retirement home already.
  • Stever@EdmundsStever@Edmunds YooperlandPosts: 39,046
    "Perhaps the biggest big surprise to us is how much we dig the new Ecodiesel V6 power plant. And we're frankly floored that our calculations suggest a 35,000-mile payback time relative to the Hemi V8. If you plan to keep yours longer, why wouldn't you?"

    2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee First Drive
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,495
    edited February 2013
    I am glad you added to the discussion.

    If not for the CA chain control requirements, in all likelihood I would have NOT gotten (another) 4WD, even as you know the TLC's are. Even less so is the need for AWD. (for my .02cents of course) Many see either and or both as wanted and needed options. Depending on what vehicles one choses, in some cases neither are options... really.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Chrysler - Ecodiesel
    GM - Ecotec
    Ford - EcoBoost

    Ford has done the best marketing so far, lets see.

    35k miles is a quick break even if they prove reliable.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,346
    AWD is largely useless in actual snow other than to get you unstuck or moving again.

    I doubt you intended to say this as literally as it is read? It's a contradiction to be sure..

    Any greater than 2 wheel drive system, no matter how it is configured or dumbed-down clutching engagement percentage, certainly can and does help prevent getting stuck, and make the difference climbing your steep drive home everyday after a long tiring day at work and unloading the groceries from the car to the door rather than making numerous trips carrying them up from the bottom of your drive. And also not being able to even plug the car in that night for the cold start the next morning...(my drive is 700' long).

    And if it gets "you unstuck or moving again" that sure isn't useless in my books.

    I have had practically every AWD, 4WD system there is on my hill in very very challenging conditions..even my bros Audi A8 one winter, and while some are better than others, every single system gets the car up the hill in 12" of fresh powder, or 6" of wet heavy mild mush...conditions that leave a 2 WD or FWD, completely out of its element.
    Another condition example...after a fairly average winter swing conditions of snow, traffic packed, more snow, traffic, then a mild spell, then rain, and the rain reveals the hardpacked base underneath which is actually just one big glare iced surface underneath it all. Then late in the afternoon, the winds come up, the temp dips severely while a cold front dominates and by 6pm, there is 3" of fresh powder on top of your skating rink for a road. We're talking so slippery you have to walk up the edges of the snowbank in order to walk up.
    Whenever someone scoffs at the suggestion that NO ONE actually needs AWD or 4WD drive, I think of the many times those exact conditions I mentioned above, and would love to invite them over with their 2WD or FWD and have them eat their words..

    So..with all that said...I have never not been able to get up my hill with every AWD or 4x4 system I or friends/family have had. This includes the so-called inferior system on my CRV, or your newer Rav4 example. The Subaru sponsored You Tube that floats around the net showing CRV's and Rav4's and Ford Edge's etc etc all being stuck on roller bearing ramps, while the infamous Subaru's navigate the ramp every time, I think are fixed somehow. And even if they are legit, their test is basically a non-issue in the real world conditions of why people buy/want/need AWD. Perhaps if your driveway was in fact made of rollers, maybe the Sube is superior...who knows..but since it is not made of rollers and even the most perceived inferior systems still manage the worst possible real world slippery conditions just fine, then I think there is a level of hoopla about some systems being so superior to others on hill climbs.

    Lastly, the one area that I do believe some AWD systems can be superior, are if you are trying to win a Rally race in the slop. I have even had Subaru's also and even those easily oversteer (no worse nor better) in a slippery snowy corner if you are pushing it a bit, and requires backing off the throttle to get the front end to regain grip. In the real world, this type of behaviour (behavior) should be considered acceptable, because if it is that slippery out, then people shouldn't be pushing the envelope anyway...they still can't brake any better..
    And in this type of world, even the most..so-called inferior AWD system, still gets you:
    - up the hill
    - even towing a trailer with skinny little 8" tires digging in fighting you all the way
    - with a 900 lb load on it
    - and gets you through that dense snowbank the plow left you with (assuming you don't highside it..no system can work if your tires are off the ground)

    And the inferior CRV system can still do all of the above.
    Was the 88 Camry I had with viscous coupling and locking diff option, better? Ya, just a little. Was my 89 Subaru XT6 better than the CRV? Nope, not one perceptible bit. In fact, my 03 Matrix AWD actually managed my hill and those extra challenging conditions a little better than the Sube did. Both had All Seasons...maybe the difference was in the rubber. I forget what the Sube had, but the Matrix had Good Year GA's I think.
    Matrix used a simple viscous coupler system too..simple, cheap, effective. I actually wish the Honda did too. Save me from having to replace the "dual pump fluid" in the rear end every 15000 or 20000 miles. I suspect the viscous coupler systems use less fuel too.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,692
    Even less so is the need for AWD. (for my .02cents of course) Many see either and or both as wanted and needed options.

    In my experience 4WD more than paid for itself when I sold the vehicle. In GM PU Trucks 4X4 was usually about $1500 more. When you go to sell it all comes back and then some.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,692
    I fully agree with Edmunds. Why has it taken so LOOOOOONG?

    While none of the engines are a bad choice, make ours an Ecodiesel. And then point us to the nearest patch of slickrock. This is the way to go in a 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,692
    Whenever someone scoffs at the suggestion that NO ONE actually needs AWD or 4WD drive

    Those are the same folks that come to have you pull them out of the ditch when their FWD did not get them up the hill.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,495
    edited February 2013
    That actually has been my experience and for multiple times and units. But on the other hand, I really had nothing to compare it with for those units have come STANDARD with 4WD.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,346
    So true..and it's happened a few times..

    I guess at the end of my book, I should have mentioned that for the easily vast majority of people, even who drive winter regularly, 2WD and a good set of 4 snows gets the job done for them, and is a $ saver all the way around..to buy, to maintain, to fuel..

    In fact, I appreciate that many don't buy AWD, cuz we'd just have that many more incompetents that would have all this great 'go' traction, but be ramming/slamming into us from not being able to stop or corner any better..

    There's a joke around these parts, and probably many other cities that have winter..on the first wintery day of the season the very first vehicle up against the guardrails or down in the median strip is always a Ford Explorer, with a driver sitting in it with a "duh...wuh happened" look..
  • Stever@EdmundsStever@Edmunds YooperlandPosts: 39,046
    Chrysler - Ecodiesel
    GM - Ecotec
    Ford - EcoBoost


    Reminds me a bit of all the other marketing catch phrases:

    "Clean Coal"
    "Clean, safe, affordable" (nukes)
    "Clean-burning alternative fuel" (natural gas)
    "Clean-tech" (wind/solar/biofuels)
    "BlueTEC clean diesel" (or Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel, if you prefer)
    "ULEV, SULEV, PZEV, ZEV"

    In other words, be green, buy a new car and drive more. :D Give it about 5 more years before the greenwashing backlash hits the automakers.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    The A3 "Green Police" ad was great, they should have run it longer.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,708
    Another condition example...after a fairly average winter swing conditions of snow, traffic packed, more snow, traffic, then a mild spell, then rain, and the rain reveals the hardpacked base underneath which is actually just one big glare iced surface underneath it all. Then late in the afternoon, the winds come up, the temp dips severely while a cold front dominates and by 6pm, there is 3" of fresh powder on top of your skating rink for a road. We're talking so slippery you have to walk up the edges of the snowbank in order to walk up.

    The thing is, that AWD on most vehicles simply is only good fro crawling up a driveway or hill. It's useless when you're going at speed and won't help you in rain, snow, ice, or other road conditions as they simply transfer power and react too slowly.

    4WD is always engaged so it's fantastic if you are running down a country road in winter. So is Audi and Subaru's system. Everything else might as well be FWD the second you go around a corner or hit a patch of ice. Maybe the stability control will save you. I'd rather not need for it to kick in in the first place.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,692
    Did Edmund's substitute a picture from 2013???? This is supposedly the look of the New JGC. And I am not thrilled. The JGC Edmund's shows does not look like this.

    image
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,692
    edited February 2013
    I'm not even a little bit impressed. Looks like a POC Japanese design.

    image
  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaPosts: 389
    Not the JGC but the jeep liberty replacement, just the Cheroke, the JGC has smaller headlights than it did before but doesn't look like this. Still looks basically the same as it did since the last redesign. If they are saying this is the grand Cherokee they are incorrect. You are still safe I think to consider the GC diesel when it gets here.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,692
    I just found that out. I forgot about the Cherokee moniker. And did not pay close attention. That is good news because I really like the looks of the JGC. The Liberty (Cherokee) is just too small for my taste. And without offering diesel it would not be on my list anyway.
  • Stever@EdmundsStever@Edmunds YooperlandPosts: 39,046
    edited February 2013
    There's a lot of Jeep photos floating around; next time I'll add a photo to my link so you won't be bummed. :shades:

    image
Sign In or Register to comment.