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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    fintail said:

    I wonder which VT natural resources were compromised by the cheating cars. Someone sees dollar signs, and maybe career advancement. I mean, think of the children!

    Probably half dozen Eco Nuts behind the lawsuit, that don't even own a VW TDI. I will be watching to see how many people actually give up their TDI knowing they will have to replace their diesel with a POC gasser. Not me for SURE. If the buyback is lucrative, I will sell back and likely buy the MB GLE 300d.

    PS
    I get letters from ambulance chasers every week wanting me to get on their VW TDI lawsuit bandwagon. I got a feeling people that sue VW will wait a long time for a court decision and likely get a lot less.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    gagrice said:

    fintail said:

    I wonder which VT natural resources were compromised by the cheating cars. Someone sees dollar signs, and maybe career advancement. I mean, think of the children!

    Probably half dozen Eco Nuts behind the lawsuit, that don't even own a VW TDI. I will be watching to see how many people actually give up their TDI knowing they will have to replace their diesel with a POC gasser. Not me for SURE. If the buyback is lucrative, I will sell back and likely buy the MB GLE 300d.

    PS
    I get letters from ambulance chasers every week wanting me to get on their VW TDI lawsuit bandwagon. I got a feeling people that sue VW will wait a long time for a court decision and likely get a lot less.
    All depends on the judge and their predisposed biases. A Judge that drives a Buick or Lexus, for example, might not be sympathetic to a 4-month old Audi S4 DV claim, but a judge that drives an S model Audi probably would be more receptive to the diminished value caused by some typical Lexus RX 350 driver.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited September 2016
    Right now, it seems to me, one damage is to resale values. (Snapshot circa Sep 2015) It remains to be seen what the ambulance chasers will get above & beyond the VW settlement, minus their take. I have read no estimates/ articles of how many there are. The emissions "damage/punishment" has already been posted @ $5,100.

    My take: the court systems will massively winnow & consolidate cases, like the CA Small Claims Court, http://www.courts.ca.gov/selfhelp-smallclaims.htm#geninfo.htm example: where an individual plaintive, without a lawyer won a (HUGE) precedent setting case against Honda Motor Company. The $ amount was CA SCC max or less. She proved in a court of law that Honda MO CO lied/mislead about the advertised MPG EPA/CARB & real world figures. The unexplained ( local, county, state, fed) action was to bar it from ALL (states) SCC's ?

    I read an article (that almost made me laugh) indicating approximately 40% that signed up for the VW buyback offer was a majority!? :D
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    I for one am inclined to believe his testimony. The change in 2014 did not alter the Bosch code - it simply changed when the code was used.

    Conclusions:

    1. VW was deliberately cheating even after the redesign - and they flashed my car last year and lied to me about why. One lie (at the sale time) was enough.
    2. They designed the emissions system for the "clean diesel" models such that they could not withstand the strain of operating within the EPA test cycle. Therefore those systems were failing and they turned off the EPA cheat sooner to prevent failures. Their proposed "fix", even if they change out the catalytic converter, will implement a system for which the entire car was not designed. That means it is an unknown as to how well it will last.

    After this mix up, even my wife (who loves the car), is thinking we need to turn it in. We had been considering keeping it.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    ruking1 said:

    My take: the court systems will massively winnow & consolidate cases, like the CA Small Claims Court, http://www.courts.ca.gov/selfhelp-smallclaims.htm#geninfo.htm example: where an individual plaintive, without a lawyer won a (HUGE) precedent setting case against Honda Motor Company. The $ amount was CA SCC max or less. She proved in a court of law that Honda MO CO lied/mislead about the advertised MPG EPA/CARB & real world figures. The unexplained ( local, county, state, fed) action was to bar it from ALL (states) SCC's ?

    And got overturned on appeal. (Fox)

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Thanks for stating the obvious, it may not have been crystal clear.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    stever said:

    ruking1 said:

    My take: the court systems will massively winnow & consolidate cases, like the CA Small Claims Court, http://www.courts.ca.gov/selfhelp-smallclaims.htm#geninfo.htm example: where an individual plaintive, without a lawyer won a (HUGE) precedent setting case against Honda Motor Company. The $ amount was CA SCC max or less. She proved in a court of law that Honda MO CO lied/mislead about the advertised MPG EPA/CARB & real world figures. The unexplained ( local, county, state, fed) action was to bar it from ALL (states) SCC's ?

    And got overturned on appeal. (Fox)

    That is exactly my point. You can spend years fighting a company like Honda, VW or Walmart and end up with less than the company offered you in the first place. I have my $1000 customer appreciation from VW. And anything more I get will make me smile. I don't plan to sell unless I can buy a diesel SUV I like as well or better.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited September 2016
    Right now, I'm not too concerned about one hosts' $64,000 question of TDI's hp/torque, mpg losses. Sure, I'd like those three losses to be gains.. But the forward VW progress has been higher hp, consistent (236) # ft of torque, better mpg. So maybe they can pull off, as a minimum no losses. At this time, it is a very sweet running car!

    Further, I'm thinking there has to be some fraction % (of 475,000 units) / faction that will be holding VW's, logistics, history, EPA, CARB's individual/collective feet to the fire! ;) I then could point to mine & say mine is a (tiny) surviving example that cost VW $ 15.5 billion plus , and put EPA/CARB & the Eco Con's movements panties in a bunch! :DB) it also generated "16 tons" of journalistic brouhaha !

    So far, like Gagrice, I've gotten $1,000 GW, VW roadside assist 3 yr.

    (2009 VW Jetts TDI) I'm due $5,100 + some tbd $$'s, composed of two components. A tad less than $500 of the GW paid for the VW TDI's rear brake job. $500 buys 1/2 years' commute (15,000 miles yr) Then, I've got two years after approval to get the "fixes". This will not include logistic delays. The fixes (however much they would cost) will then have warranty of 120,000 miles. There will already be fixes to the fixes !

    No matter what is approved or not, the car will always pass the CARB biannual smog inspections. I've already described (my) the out of warranty fixes: noteworthy the HPFP.. And here I am now wishing the old catalytic converter would've pooped out , Not too bad for a commute car that can easily go another 120,000 more miles (putting mine @ 240,000 to 265,000 miles) after mods !

    @ those miles, it does beg the question: how many $$'s could I realistically get? BUT keep in mind the 94 to 97 TLC's are becoming very desirable, on the way to classic! http://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/8-vehicles-that-will-become-classic-cars-in-20-years.html/8/ B) (aka, 2 stupid things I've done: sell my 1970 VW Beetle, not buying a $1,600 (restored, between $65,000 to $ 153,000)1964 Porsche 356 !

    The 3.0 L TDI has yet to be settled.

    The invalidation of the CA SCC's (less than $10,000) verdict was a hammer blow loss to the State's' as well as US freedoms. One does NOT need a lawyer in small claims court. It's a liberal's shame this story did not receive more TV coverage at the time. $9,700 settlement to $ ZERO, no matter how it is rationalized is a TAKING, sans NO "eminent domain" . The plantiff received no special treatment from Honda for her $200. I'm sure the insult to injury was she didn't get back the fees, nor any other costs she incurred for filing in small claims court. On a practical basis, this would mean she got back less than $200!
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    edited September 2016
    ruking1 said:

    Right now, I'm not too concerned about one hosts' $64,000 question of TDI's hp/torque, mpg losses. Sure, I'd like those three losses to be gains.. But the forward VW progress has been higher hp, consistent (236) # ft of torque, better mpg. So maybe they can pull off, as a minimum no losses. At this time, it is a very sweet running car!

    Further, I'm thinking there has to be some fraction % (of 475,000 units) / faction that will be holding VW's, logistics, history, EPA, CARB's individual/collective feet to the fire! ;) I then could point to mine & say mine is a (tiny) surviving example that cost VW $ 15.5 billion plus , and put EPA/CARB & the Eco Con's movements panties in a bunch! :DB) it also generated "16 tons" of journalistic brouhaha !

    So far, like Gagrice, I've gotten $1,000 GW, VW roadside assist 3 yr.

    (2009 VW Jetts TDI) I'm due $5,100 + some tbd $$'s, composed of two components. A tad less than $500 of the GW paid for the VW TDI's rear brake job. $500 buys 1/2 years' commute (15,000 miles yr) Then, I've got two years after approval to get the "fixes". This will not include logistic delays. The fixes (however much they would cost) will then have warranty of 120,000 miles. There will already be fixes to the fixes !

    No matter what is approved or not, the car will always pass the CARB biannual smog inspections. I've already described (my) the out of warranty fixes: noteworthy the HPFP.. And here I am now wishing the old catalytic converter would've pooped out , Not too bad for a commute car that can easily go another 120,000 more miles (putting mine @ 240,000 to 265,000 miles) after mods !

    ...

    I got the 1K package too.

    You know, I'm actually worried about VW itself (here in the US). I wouldn't be too surprised if they pulled the plug on diesel and maybe shut down the dealerships, leaving the Audi chain intact. Certainly, the last several times I've been in the dealership there has been nobody there. I'm not sure I want to risk it. You'd be stuck with independent mechanics, or Audi dealers. And they may well drop diesel here in the US anyway after this dust up.

    On your Jetta, they are going to have to fit it with an Adblue system, taking up room (probably from the trunk space), and you are going to have to keep it filled - they will set the engine software to stop working if there is no Adblue. Combined with that, they will have to tune the engine to match the emissions (presumably "de-tune" the engine). I gather all that is going to be OK with you?

    For the Jetta, it isn't going to be the same car as before. The Passat should be an easier fix and less impact.

    In fact, I'm surprised they didn't just say they were going to buy all Jetta's back. And if that happens, I imagine CARB won't let them be registered in CA.

    EDIT: Obviously, no one knows. But the fact that VW has tried to submit fixes up to now, and they have been rejected, is not a good sign.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    They're not putting in Adblue as part of the fix, I'm pretty sure, just new software and beefing up the existing approach. The 'fixed' TDIs still won't meet the regs, but the added payments from VW are supposed to address that.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited September 2016
    Good. I know you know this, but for those that do not: there are expiration dates to both VW GW cards.

    I am already familiar with the Ad Blue. (two other Ad Blue TDI's.) Right now it is an erroneous assumption and with absolutely no basis in fact that the 2009 VW Jetta TDI is in violation of anything. Indeed biannual CARB smog tests pasted mine with flying colors! To wit, there are no articles indicating that it has been tested, tested. Secondarily to wit, nobody knows if my INDIVIDUAL or even collective 2009 Jetta TDI is in violation. They only tested three TDI's as I recall with one passing! Indeed the reality is that it's only an assumption that any approved fixes will indeed bring it into then a mythical close compliance !! The CARB bi annual SMOG TEST does NOT TEST for TDI smog!

    VW has made no offer to buy back all Jetta's ( more monies) in case they are not able to effect EPA/CARB approval/s. There are costs to remove a STATED (reasonable, logical) option.

    Your (Jetta) conclusion remains to be seen ! :D
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited September 2016
    VW isn't ruling out bringing back diesels to the light vehicle market in the US. " For now, the company will focus on petrol engines and a gradual roll out of hybrid electric and electric versions of its cars"

    Volkswagen Not Sure it Will Bring Diesel Cars Back to U.S. Market (WSJ - free link at time of posting)
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    texases said:

    They're not putting in Adblue as part of the fix, I'm pretty sure, just new software and beefing up the existing approach. The 'fixed' TDIs still won't meet the regs, but the added payments from VW are supposed to address that.

    There is no way they are going to get those cars into specs without Adblue. I hope you are wrong, because if they can't meet CARB standards, CARB will not let them continue to be registered in the state. They will simply refuse to re-register them.

    I've seen articles indicating they were going to put in the Adblue system as part of the fixes on the Jetta and Bug. Of course, can't find them now!

    The 2015 Jetta had the Adblue system, so they have the basic knowledge - but it would be really expensive to add them on to the older Jetta.

    BTW, forgot to add that with the adblue system, they need to add a heater to ensure it doesn't freeze.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    stever said:

    VW isn't ruling out bringing back diesels to the light passenger market in the US. " For now, the company will focus on petrol engines and a gradual roll out of hybrid electric and electric versions of its cars"

    Volkswagen Not Sure it Will Bring Diesel Cars Back to U.S. Market (WSJ - free link at time of posting)

    Thanks for the article. Well, there is hope! But I'd expect it on the luxury cars first.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    ruking1 said:

    Right now, I'm not too concerned about one hosts' $64,000 question of TDI's hp/torque, mpg losses. Sure, I'd like those three losses to be gains.. But the forward VW progress has been higher hp, consistent (236) # ft of torque, better mpg. So maybe they can pull off, as a minimum no losses. At this time, it is a very sweet running car!

    Further, I'm thinking there has to be some fraction % (of 475,000 units) / faction that will be holding VW's, logistics, history, EPA, CARB's individual/collective feet to the fire! ;) I then could point to mine & say mine is a (tiny) surviving example that cost VW $ 15.5 billion plus , and put EPA/CARB & the Eco Con's movements panties in a bunch! :DB) it also generated "16 tons" of journalistic brouhaha !

    So far, like Gagrice, I've gotten $1,000 GW, VW roadside assist 3 yr.

    (2009 VW Jetts TDI) I'm due $5,100 + some tbd $$'s, composed of two components. A tad less than $500 of the GW paid for the VW TDI's rear brake job. $500 buys 1/2 years' commute (15,000 miles yr) Then, I've got two years after approval to get the "fixes". This will not include logistic delays. The fixes (however much they would cost) will then have warranty of 120,000 miles. There will already be fixes to the fixes !

    No matter what is approved or not, the car will always pass the CARB biannual smog inspections. I've already described (my) the out of warranty fixes: noteworthy the HPFP.. And here I am now wishing the old catalytic converter would've pooped out , Not too bad for a commute car that can easily go another 120,000 more miles (putting mine @ 240,000 to 265,000 miles) after mods !

    @ those miles, it does beg the question: how many $$'s could I realistically get? BUT keep in mind the 94 to 97 TLC's are becoming very desirable, on the way to classic! http://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/8-vehicles-that-will-become-classic-cars-in-20-years.html/8/ B) (aka, 2 stupid things I've done: sell my 1970 VW Beetle, not buying a $1,600 (restored, between $65,000 to $ 153,000)1964 Porsche 356 !

    The 3.0 L TDI has yet to be settled.

    The invalidation of the CA SCC's (less than $10,000) verdict was a hammer blow loss to the State's' as well as US freedoms. One does NOT need a lawyer in small claims court. It's a liberal's shame this story did not receive more TV coverage at the time. $9,700 settlement to $ ZERO, no matter how it is rationalized is a TAKING, sans NO "eminent domain" . The plantiff received no special treatment from Honda for her $200. I'm sure the insult to injury was she didn't get back the fees, nor any other costs she incurred for filing in small claims court. On a practical basis, this would mean she got back less than $200!

    Good point that if your small claims judgement is later overturned on appeal, they really ought to refund the plaintiff's court and service process costs and fees! Essentially, the government failed to provide any service for their service fee, so they should absolutely refund the costs. I'm sure they didn't, and don't have a process in place to refund money wasted on them.

    The fact the Small Claims Court added the fees and costs of service processing to my judgment against a negligent driver was a nice little affirmation that I won the case, and a bit of a punitive thing to the insurance company.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited September 2016
    I mean this with all sincerity, YIPPEE for you in SCC!

    I've won each time in CA SCC. It's kind of a neat feeling! Of course that gives way to the feeling that now you got to make sure they pony up !
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,182
    No approval, yet, though. They've already said adding DEF is not an option. I think CARB is putting the standard at twice the limit for the "fixed" cars, but it seems they are having trouble getting to that point. Hmmm.. maybe, they could put in some sort of software to make it seem like they are hitting the target? Oh, wait... B)

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  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    andres3 said:

    ruking1 said:

    Right now, I'm not too concerned about one hosts' $64,000 question of TDI's hp/torque, mpg losses. Sure, I'd like those three losses to be gains.. But the forward VW progress has been higher hp, consistent (236) # ft of torque, better mpg. So maybe they can pull off, as a minimum no losses. At this time, it is a very sweet running car!

    Further, I'm thinking there has to be some fraction % (of 475,000 units) / faction that will be holding VW's, logistics, history, EPA, CARB's individual/collective feet to the fire! ;) I then could point to mine & say mine is a (tiny) surviving example that cost VW $ 15.5 billion plus , and put EPA/CARB & the Eco Con's movements panties in a bunch! :DB) it also generated "16 tons" of journalistic brouhaha !

    So far, like Gagrice, I've gotten $1,000 GW, VW roadside assist 3 yr.

    (2009 VW Jetts TDI) I'm due $5,100 + some tbd $$'s, composed of two components. A tad less than $500 of the GW paid for the VW TDI's rear brake job. $500 buys 1/2 years' commute (15,000 miles yr) Then, I've got two years after approval to get the "fixes". This will not include logistic delays. The fixes (however much they would cost) will then have warranty of 120,000 miles. There will already be fixes to the fixes !

    No matter what is approved or not, the car will always pass the CARB biannual smog inspections. I've already described (my) the out of warranty fixes: noteworthy the HPFP.. And here I am now wishing the old catalytic converter would've pooped out , Not too bad for a commute car that can easily go another 120,000 more miles (putting mine @ 240,000 to 265,000 miles) after mods !

    @ those miles, it does beg the question: how many $$'s could I realistically get? BUT keep in mind the 94 to 97 TLC's are becoming very desirable, on the way to classic! http://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/8-vehicles-that-will-become-classic-cars-in-20-years.html/8/ B) (aka, 2 stupid things I've done: sell my 1970 VW Beetle, not buying a $1,600 (restored, between $65,000 to $ 153,000)1964 Porsche 356 !

    The 3.0 L TDI has yet to be settled.

    The invalidation of the CA SCC's (less than $10,000) verdict was a hammer blow loss to the State's' as well as US freedoms. One does NOT need a lawyer in small claims court. It's a liberal's shame this story did not receive more TV coverage at the time. $9,700 settlement to $ ZERO, no matter how it is rationalized is a TAKING, sans NO "eminent domain" . The plantiff received no special treatment from Honda for her $200. I'm sure the insult to injury was she didn't get back the fees, nor any other costs she incurred for filing in small claims court. On a practical basis, this would mean she got back less than $200!

    Good point that if your small claims judgement is later overturned on appeal, they really ought to refund the plaintiff's court and service process costs and fees! Essentially, the government failed to provide any service for their service fee, so they should absolutely refund the costs. I'm sure they didn't, and don't have a process in place to refund money wasted on them.

    The fact the Small Claims Court added the fees and costs of service processing to my judgment against a negligent driver was a nice little affirmation that I won the case, and a bit of a punitive thing to the insurance company.
    If there's no "cost" to filing suit the courts will really get clogged. Loser should pay, at least a percentage of the winner's cost.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited September 2016
    Well, NO ! I agree the loser should pay! Given the appeal, whom then is the designated loser ?

    Your take away was not the case at all! The reversal on appeal really had nothing to do with the merits of the case.

    The appeal & subsequent reversal was all about kicking that consumer to the curb! ($200 vs $9,700).

    They wanted to deny the next wronged Honda hybrid owner from using the legitimate avenue to get justice (any person's day in court) without obscenely paid legal types & class action suits, to where little or nothing is awarded to the consumer. ($200 vs $9,700)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited September 2016
    Gee, I thought you appealed because you thought the judge or jury were wrong about the law and/or the facts. Silly me. :) Last I heard you had to put money up to appeal, so if you lost the appeal, the winner would be guaranteed to get some recovery.

    Gotta pay to play, which is a grand idea for those who can afford to try to get justice.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited September 2016
    Again, the appeal was granted to get/keep cases in higher courts, not on the merits of the case ! I'm sure Honda put up appeal monies. Losing was potential HUGE for a ghetto court!

    So given these injustices: I'm fine with running the 2009 Jetta TDI with a "new" catalytic converter, sans DEF! I'm beginning to think the emissions penalty to consumers at $5100 is not enough vs the millions of $$'s the lawyers & government agencies are getting! ?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Honda took a pretty good hit in the court of public opinion.

    Judges (and juries) do make mistakes too.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    kyfdx said:

    No approval, yet, though. They've already said adding DEF is not an option. I think CARB is putting the standard at twice the limit for the "fixed" cars, but it seems they are having trouble getting to that point. Hmmm.. maybe, they could put in some sort of software to make it seem like they are hitting the target? Oh, wait... B)

    Where did you see that adding DEF is not an option?
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    From Road & Track:

    "In the weeks before Volkswagen's $14.7 billion settlement with the U.S. government over its emissions-cheating diesels was finalized, there was some doubt that the cars would ever be fully fixed. The recall fix has still yet to be approved, but increasingly, it looks like the cars affected will never meet U.S emissions standards.

    The California Air Resources Board estimates that VW's fix will reduce emissions in cars equipped with 2.0-liter TDI engines between 80 and 90 percent, according to a Bloomberg report. While this does represent a significant reduction in Nitrogen Oxide emissions, it isn't enough to meet the standards VW originally intended to evade. As part of its settlement, VW will contribute $2.7 billion to fund pollution reduction efforts, and an additional $2 billion towards clean energy programs in an attempt to offset its excess pollution.

    Fully fixing the cheating cars would likely involve adding a urea tank to each car affected, which was deemed far too expensive and complex to be done. That's why VW and U.S. regulators agreed on a settlement involving extensive buybacks, a partial fix, and pollution mitigation efforts. Additionally, the EPA wanted to arrive at a solution that prioritized reducing emissions and compensating owners as quickly as possible, rather than waiting for a full fix."
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited September 2016
    So we all are all caught up!? But all those are words, till ... final approvals! ?

    But if it ends up going where I think it will, I still think owners should get more monies & far LESS to wasteful government entities! They will sprinkle EPA/CARB Eco water over cars like mine & ...move on! Even if VW delays a couple of years, hope VW brings back TDI's!

    Just as a TMI:

    to lobotomize the TDI's not to so call "cheat" makes no sense @ all. They has NEVER been measured, nor will they be in the future: be they CA Bi annual to change of ownership smog inspections. To wit EPA/CARB already knows/s how to defeat the defeat codes. The TDI's never were tested anyway!?
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,182
    VW agreeing to a $15B dollar settlement, and admitting to cheating, makes them cheaters. You'll notice that they didn't get to agree to a settlement, in exchange for no admission of wrongdoing.

    So, they either cheated or they lied about cheating. Take your pick.

    And.. @texases thanks for looking that up. I read a lot, but I'll be darned if I can back it up later, with quoted material. ;)

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  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited September 2016
    No! Neither! None of it mimics realities in other areas.

    The app $18.32 B math is almost total BS! The "emissions" portion of $5,100 is only $ 2.4225 B of the nearly 18.32 B, VW plans to spend, assuming 100% sign up! I personally do not believe it will be near 100%, nor are there any figures to the contrary. . That leaves app $15.8975 B unaccounted for. At this writing, there's no reliable $ costs & unit #'s that will get the modifications.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    kyfdx said:

    So, they either cheated or they lied about cheating. Take your pick. ;)

    I chose both - they cheated and then lied about it. ;)

    "Michael Horn, CEO of the Volkswagen Group of America, vowed to make amends on Monday at a lavish event in New York to promote the 2016 Passat.

    “Let’s be clear about this. Our company was dishonest with the EPA and the California air resources board and with all of you, and, in my German words, we have totally screwed up,” he told the audience.

    Volkswagen CEO Martin Winterkorn had already apologised over the scandal, saying in a statement: “I personally am deeply sorry that we have broken the trust of our customers and the public.” (Euronews)

    Of course those guys are gone and now VW is saying that they aren't admitting any liability in the EPA settlement.

    That would impact their defense of the state suits, the individual suits, the dealerships' suits, and the FTC false advertising suit. Oh, and the criminal investigations.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,182
    ruking1 said:

    No! Neither! None of it mimics realities in other areas.

    The app $15 B math is almost total BS! The "emissions" portion of $5,100 is only $ 2.4225 B of the nearly 15 B, assuming 100% sign up! I personally do not believe it will be near 100%. That leaves app $12.5775 B unaccounted for. At this writing, there's no reliable $ costs & unit #'s that will get the modifications.

    $10.33 Billion for buybacks. You really should read the settlement. It's all in there.

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  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    So as soon as the court, EPA and CARB say it is a done deal they can get the loot and the VW TDI owners can get either a buyback or pay off or both. Sounds like a winner for everyone. And NO ONE will notice any difference in the air quality. My guess is those Korean ships sitting off the coast will pollute the air more than all the diesel cars in the World.

    One of the world's largest shipping companies is sinking in a sea of red ink, leaving sailors and cargo stranded in vessels anchored offshore and merchants worrying they won't get goods in time for holiday shopping.

    South Korea's Hanjin Shipping, the world's No. 7 shipping company, is in bankruptcy and has more than 40 massive container ships stranded at sea. It's estimated they're carrying $14 billion worth of goods -- everything from Samsung electronics and Nike sneakers to furniture and food.

    “Our ships can become ghost ships,” Kim Ho Kyung, a manager at Hanjin Shipping’s labor union, told Bloomberg News. “Food and water are running down in those ships floating in international waters.”


    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/09/12/sailors-cargo-stranded-at-sea-amid-global-shippers-bankruptcy.html
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited September 2016
    kyfdx said:

    ruking1 said:

    No! Neither! None of it mimics realities in other areas.

    The app $15 B math is almost total BS! The "emissions" portion of $5,100 is only $ 2.4225 B of the nearly 15 B, assuming 100% sign up! I personally do not believe it will be near 100%. That leaves app $12.5775 B unaccounted for. At this writing, there's no reliable $ costs & unit #'s that will get the modifications.

    $10.33 Billion for buybacks. You really should read the settlement. It's all in there.
    I have! That is why I'm saying what I'm saying! If 85% (buy back goal ) of 475,000 does not convince you that they are out to kill diesels, in any way they can, you are totally ignoring the truth. Or let's put it another way, fix 85% of them & buy back 15%?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited September 2016
    Some of those ships started unloading the other day. KAL put up ~$54 million but they're still negotiating terms. (Bloomberg) I was surprised that the S. Korean government hasn't bailed them out (yet).
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The point being 40 of those cargo ships is dumping far more NOx into the air than all the cars in the World. So VW is getting screwed over royally for cheating. VW would have done much better if they had just said, No kidding we will check into it, when presented with the evidence. Dumb Germans, It makes me want to change my heritage.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    kyfdx said:
    VW agreeing to a $15B dollar settlement, and admitting to cheating, makes them cheaters. You'll notice that they didn't get to agree to a settlement, in exchange for no admission of wrongdoing. So, they either cheated or they lied about cheating. Take your pick. And.. @texases thanks for looking that up. I read a lot, but I'll be darned if I can back it up later, with quoted material. ;)
    I think those initial comments on adding AdBlue systems started when someone said it would only have cost VW, say, $300 additional.   They thought that applied to a retrofit, which was WAY off. 
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited September 2016
    Alan Dershowiz: shoulda, woulda, coulda taken the fifth! Did you kill Kennedy? 5th. What do you know about diesels? 5th. Etc., etc. The absolute most VW should've said: we will refer this to our legal counsel in VW A.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited September 2016
    texases said:


    kyfdx said:

    VW agreeing to a $15B dollar settlement, and admitting to cheating, makes them cheaters. You'll notice that they didn't get to agree to a settlement, in exchange for no admission of wrongdoing.

    So, they either cheated or they lied about cheating. Take your pick.

    And.. @texases thanks for looking that up. I read a lot, but I'll be darned if I can back it up later, with quoted material. ;)

    I think those initial comments on adding AdBlue systems started when someone said it would only have cost VW, say, $300 additional.   They thought that applied to a retrofit, which was WAY off. 

    As I recall, the conversation was what would the cost have been on new assembly.

    On the 2009 Jetta TDI, not a peep on the costs to "fix". Aka, no Ad Blue.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited September 2016
    gagrice said:

    The point being 40 of those cargo ships is dumping far more NOx into the air than all the cars in the World. So VW is getting screwed over royally for cheating. VW would have done much better if they had just said, No kidding we will check into it, when presented with the evidence. Dumb Germans, It makes me want to change my heritage.

    Wonder how the annual number of cargo ships docking at Long Beach compares to the daily number of semis. The Port is trying to do some stuff right at least.

    The plea copping VW engineer "is scheduled to be sentenced in Detroit by U.S. District Judge Sean Cox on Jan. 11 — smack in the middle of press week for the North American International Auto Show." How's that for timing? (Detroit News)

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited September 2016
    stever said:

    gagrice said:

    The point being 40 of those cargo ships is dumping far more NOx into the air than all the cars in the World. So VW is getting screwed over royally for cheating. VW would have done much better if they had just said, No kidding we will check into it, when presented with the evidence. Dumb Germans, It makes me want to change my heritage.

    Wonder how the annual number of cargo ships docking at Long Beach compares to the daily number of semis. The Port is trying to do some stuff right at least.

    The plea copping VW engineer "is scheduled to be sentenced in Detroit by U.S. District Judge Sean Cox on Jan. 11 — smack in the middle of press week for the North American International Auto Show." How's that for timing? (Detroit News)

    I hope they give Liang 5 years. He is guilty, and should do the time. Not sure an oped by a Detroit paper has much objectivity. They were very unhappy when VW snubbed them and built the factory in TN. VW has made offers to EPA, CARB, owners, dealers. How much have they actually spent? About $475 million on debit cards to the owners. If not spent soon will go back into the VW bank accounts. Half of which goes to buy from VW dealers. Their attorneys get paid no matter what is going on. As long as the courts, EPA, CARB and others procrastinate, VW has spent very little. Wonder if the millions of pages, don't implicate more than a handful of ladder climbing lower management and engineers. VW can say fine them and toss em in prison, we ain't paying.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Guess you saw that VW is hiring like gangbusters in Chattanooga for the new SUV? Something like 1,000 jobs.

    Meaning that they'll get 20,000 applications, including a few from Detroit. :)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited September 2016
    Containment (actual) to the lower levels of engineers & management layers might truly be a reason VW could get off relatively unscathed: less criminally & importantly for less $$'s. The fact that Liang is getting no immunity might be one BIG indicatior there is a lack of bigger fish to fry. I'm sure also Liang, pleading guilty would find it improbable to bring a successful labor or wrongful termination suit.

    Higher levels of management MAY have suspected, but that is A LONG way off from "proof", whatever that means in today's day & age. Besides the "usual suspects" have pulled their "golden parachutes". aka, Former CEO Winterkorn @ $ 60 M ?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited September 2016
    stever said:

    Guess you saw that VW is hiring like gangbusters in Chattanooga for the new SUV? Something like 1,000 jobs.

    Meaning that they'll get 20,000 applications, including a few from Detroit. :)

    Yes! It is hardly seems the rats deserting the sinking ship scenario!? Or in comparison to the hey day of American iron, not an indicator of a robust economy.

    GMTA? https://www.yahoo.com/news/why-vw-diesel-buyback-pays-owners-keep-cars-140000618.html

    My two questions: Does he reasonably think he can put more miles on his next car, an EV? At cheaper $$'s, cpmd:depreciation. This is of course assuming he still has a requirement to do 22,000 miles per year.

    His analysis make perfect sense if he's looking to get rid of these two cars (less than 154,000/74,000) or take advantage of a wildly cheaper cpmd:depreciation.

    So while I can make the decision at the last minute, by September 2018, ( KBB value frozen @ Sep 2015 ($ 12,975 total) The total plus $ xx,xxx & up to 10% sales tax for a new car will solve my going forward commute issue.

    another way to look at it:

    Keeping the then "fixed" 2009 TDI, ($ 7,875) I (VW) can buy ( $5,100). 5.17 years of commuting (=77,567 miles/15,000 per yr, $5,100/$2.63 per gal ULSD= 1,939 gal*40 mpg) Keeping the car, using the $5,100 emissions penalty will put me @ 228,567 miles (app & projected).

    So if I take the buy back, adding 1,000 GW, IRS tax credit $1,300, I will lose $4,725 (over 145,000 miles) or .0325862 cents per mile driven depreciation.

    He's right, how many folks lose (only) 24% over 10 years? Basically it's less than $40 per mo.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    stever said:

    Guess you saw that VW is hiring like gangbusters in Chattanooga for the new SUV? Something like 1,000 jobs.

    Meaning that they'll get 20,000 applications, including a few from Detroit. :)

    How much of those $billions are included in TN expansion? Maybe start building the eGolf there? I got to go spend my $1000 before they recall it. I have my eye on the VW Mt Bike.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited September 2016
    Afghanistan, "Ultimate Failure? Or just clearing the way for China to mine rare earth metal critical& crucial to Eco cons EV? https://www.yahoo.com/news/americas-ultimate-failure-afghanistan-corruption-billions-163516289--abc-news-topstories.html

    What are wasted $$'s billions compared to $ 10 TRILLION ? (Siri sez 10,000 billion)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Is that like "peak oil"?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    stever said:

    Is that like "peak oil"?

    More like PEAK REE. Without Rare Earth Elements there can be no EVs, Solar panels, Wind generators, Smartphones, batteries, etc etc etc. It is likely Russia knew and fought for them decades ago. Now we have spent who knows how much to gain control of the country for its mineral wealth. China will likely slip in and take it all. They know how to exploit without pushing their ideology onto the people in charge.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Rare Earth Elements aren't particularly rare. They exist all over the world and most likely even in larger quantities under the sea. China is just a large producer but that doesn't mean they have most of it.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited September 2016
    For Those Who Couldn't Link to the WSJ article:

    VW Might Be Giving Up Selling Diesels in the USA
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450

    For Those Who Couldn't Link to the WSJ article:

    VW Might Be Giving Up Selling Diesels in the USA

    Cannot think of any other reason to buy a VW. I liked both of my VW diesels and would likely buy another. I think Audi was cutting a fat hog with their TDI models. Same for the Porsche Cayenne TDI.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450

    Rare Earth Elements aren't particularly rare. They exist all over the world and most likely even in larger quantities under the sea. China is just a large producer but that doesn't mean they have most of it.

    Yes CA has a huge reserve of REEs. The company extracting them went Belly up. No way to process. Cannot pass EPA regs is what the company says. So we let China do the dirty work and make the big bucks.

    https://www.hcn.org/articles/the-u-s-s-only-rare-earth-mine-files-bankruptcy
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited September 2016

    Rare Earth Elements aren't particularly rare. They exist all over the world and most likely even in larger quantities under the sea. China is just a large producer but that doesn't mean they have most of it.

    Absolutely the same thing with coal! The USA has HUGE reserves of coal! The USA is exponentially beyond the Saudi Arabia of coal! Yet, we say we have very little. We prohibit its mining, even though we have depended on it for CLEAN energy for generations (135 years) & will continue for the foreseeable future (2015 33% right now) . The difference will be we will let China have the Afghanistan rare earth (EV) mining contracts.
This discussion has been closed.