What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

ruking1

Slow VW diesel news day!

We received the VW email notification on about 11/13/2016 of the buyback/ emmisions "fix" offer. This is app 14 months after mid Sep 2015, app 14 mo after the "gate" broke news wind. We were directed to the VW online claims portal for review & procedures.

1 of 2 remedies is still not in place/approved, So de facto, it's way too PREMATURE to decide with those legal & structural deficiencies !

However, unsaid & de facto, I'm sure the clock's ticking for VW on its buy back dead line of 85% of 485,000 affected units, (412,250) to whatever the real practical numbers are. My understanding are fixes of 15% (72,750 units) do not trigger additional emissions fines.

Aside from those, there are practical deficiencies.

1. What if regulatory approved fixes do not come close to what folks have in mind?
2. Do they then have remedies?
3. Do the fixes have any affect/effect to the structural integrit
4. What are the affect/effects on the then "fixed & unfixed"used car prices?

ruking1

Mid to $20. OIL is that bullish for consumers or what? Does this convert to (sub) $2.00 ULSD ?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/panosmourdoukoutas/2016/11/13/oil-is-heading-back-to-20s/?ref=yfp#766df90e70cf

Yippee yahoo, Yee Haw! I'm hoping that prediction comes true & stays!

IF auto OEM's like VW, Toyota, GM survive the coming holocaust/s , a lot of "smaller" OEM's will hit the ash bins, get bought out, go bankrupt, etc.

If one doesn't agree with SUV's. http://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/mark-phelan/2016/11/12/suvs-la-auto-show/93618616/?ref=yfpe car TDI's, like 1 to 5 year old MB's can be screaming buys!!!

texases

I'd be very surprised if oil goes below $30, or above $60, for any length of time. Still less than half the rigs operating, and many will shut back down if oil goes below $40. 

ruking1

I find ULSD @ $1.99 per gal appealing ! 63.09 cents are the CA et al., governments takes, so that needs to go drastically down! Look @ other states. http://www.api.org/~/media/Files/Statistics/StateMotorFuel-OnePagers-Nov-2016.pdf
It sure beats the early BHO POTUS administrations prognostications of $10.00 per gal is gasoline app 7/8 years ago!

($995. per year, 500 gal = 36 mpg/18,000 miles year/ 12 mo = $82.92 mo )

The world market (supply & demand) systems swings brings a lot of USA rigs both OUT & iN! USA is a more nimble competitor & net exporter. The USA has been, is, will remain the literal King Kong of multiple energy resources & products.

ruking1

Is anybody ready for World Wide EV's? "Carmakers Gear Up For Electric Push" Ah,....http://www.wsj.com/articles/car-makers-gear-up-for-electric-push-1478952005

The US policy makers can NOT even explain the eia.gov, barrel of oil ratio to themselves, let alone pass legislation! Even if they could, the US diesel PVF is not even close to 60%! The diesel PVF is now 3% to 5%, & they want to kill diesel? This would create an even greater demand for GAS! They can't even explain , nor in fact do they believe why going to diesel means easily 50% LESS oil demand. Or as i've said before, maybe that's the real issue: say /swear you're consuming a hell of a a lot less, while actually consuming a HELL of a LOT more!!

Longer story short: advantage diesels!

That's the bad news! This is FAR worst news? http://www.wsj.com/articles/is-it-time-to-deregulate-all-electric-utilities-1479092461?mod=whatnext&cx_navSource=cx_picks&cx_tag=poptarget&cx_artPos=1#cxrecs_s
Even governments don't want LEDS! ?

Now, Uncle Warren is either the luckiest person on the face of the planet, or he understands the nuances PERFECTLY!? Personally, I think Wayne Gretskey took the (principle) cue from WB: skate to where the puck will be, not where it's been. WB iterally owns parts of the rolling pipelines. He gets the governmentals electricity solar & wind credits/ write offs/subsidies. He owns electricity "MONOPOLIES" . While he's waiting, (@ 86 years old, he has time to wait? You also have to wonder what he has been doing with his Social Security moneies) he waits for the quarterly dividends of those industries to post to his accounts!! In the old days, aka "clipping coupons?

stever

Electric cars will spoil consumers as people buy them, at least for local errands. No stopping at gas stations every week or two (I got range anxiety Sunday), no maintenance to speak of since there's no oil to change and brake pads tend to last a long time thanks to regenerative braking. There's a lot to like there.

ruking1

I love electric golf carts for hilly or longish courses! Well, you might want to talk to folks who maintain electric golf carts! Not far (135 miles) from South Lake Tahoe, CA, Lincoln, CA has a community where getting around in EV golf carts are encouraged.

Well you do have the WW EV PVF numbers & %'s! Overwhelming approval ratings don't seem to translate to the gasoline PVF killers, as some folks woul like them to be?! Wake me when they hit 3% to 5% of the PVF.(8.244 M to 13.74M, 2014 274.8 M ) Zzzzzzzzzzzzz
http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=93&t=4 when the dot. Gov site has finished clearing its throat, would you do the math & post it?

IF it is true that EV cars like 85% of TESLA's will need a chassis replacement in 60,000 miles or less, I'm a side liner.

Are low oil prices good for the economy?http://www.wsj.com/articles/are-low-oil-prices-good-for-the-economy-1479092581 Maybe yes/no!? .... some times it's so indecisive, it can't be sure!!?

Surely there has to be a way "haters" can be charged $10 bux per gal, when fuel is $1.99 to $4.00! Here's an easy one, start off with Pruises!? No brains there! Suddenly all those tall hat no cattle " Eco Cons" want the same price as we gas/ULSD folks.

Oh & give diesel tax credits for the diesel fuel used that does not have to be treated as hazardous waste, because of the GASOLINE/ diesel ratio/demand imbalance!

gagrice

stever said:

Electric cars will spoil consumers as people buy them, at least for local errands. No stopping at gas stations every week or two (I got range anxiety Sunday), no maintenance to speak of since there's no oil to change and brake pads tend to last a long time thanks to regenerative braking. There's a lot to like there.

I deal with RANGE UPSET with my PU truck every time I fill it. When it gets down to the low light coming on I am rarely close to one of the few low priced stations. We only had 288 miles and 17.6 gallons in last night at Costco. I went about 5 miles out of the way, and waited in long lines. Price was $2.49 compared to our local CC price of $2.95. Cheapest Cash price is $2.65 in about a 20 mile radius. Diesel is $2.46. The point being I have to fill more than twice as often with my gas guzzler. It has never yielded the 17 MPG combined the EPA rates it at. I feel real lucky when I get 16.5 MPG. Last gasser for me. At least living in the land of long drives to anywhere.

ruking1

Even with the "561 miles reduced range", 15.6 gal vs 870 miles, 26.4 gal, with both, I can fuel almost anywhere & to take advantage of prices.

stever

Big tank in the van means I usually push 375 miles or more. We don't drive that much around town so I forget to check the gauge. This last tank snuck up on me and I got all the warning bells coming home Saturday night.

ruking1

Realistically, while you may know what big tank in the van means, nobody else to few people know what that is. In any case, your tank would yield many more miles if your van was a TDI. Again not knowing, so and using the 22 mpg PUG /36 mpg ULSD example....

Speaking of 2.0 L TDI's ....http://blog.caranddriver.com/whats-volkswagen-doing-with-all-those-repurchased-diesels/?ref=yfp

stever

Having a TDI means I would just forget to buy fuel two weeks later, lol.

gagrice

ruking1 said:

Realistically, while you may know what big tank in the van means, nobody else to few people know what that is. In any case, your tank would yield many more miles if your van was a TDI. Again not knowing, so and using the 22 mpg PUG /36 mpg ULSD example....

Speaking of 2.0 L TDI's ....http://blog.caranddriver.com/whats-volkswagen-doing-with-all-those-repurchased-diesels/?ref=yfp

Talked to a pastor Sunday night that has a 2014 Sportswagen TDI. He has been informed he will get $7200 and the fix when and if it is approved. No way will he sell it back. Best vehicle he has ever owned. If VW cannot get the EPA/CARB to agree on a fix that could be June 2019 before he is forced to sell back or????

So VW pulls vital components out of the buy back cars and sells them as scrap to say Mexico. No big deal to put in new ECU and away we go. There has to be dozens of ways to get around the incompetent people in the EPA and CARB.

ruking1

I agree with each of the 5 points made in para one & the 3 points in para two!

For example, if your pastor drives it till June 2019, that is approximately 30/31 mo & @ $450 per mo @ zero interest: come June 2019, he's $13,500 to $14,000 (savings) into a $25,000 new car on VW! This is not to mention the money he will get back, on forced sale. This is not to mention that the VW will probably offer him an even better deal at that time!

It is really a shame (monies aside) for some to many (initial) owners & a bonanza for coming new owners, for most cars are very good.

The negotiated court deals only approach " fairness" IF one (willing seller) is/was/were inclined to sell any affected used TDI @ those particular dates & times & anyway. ( my case 3.375 cents cpmd: depreciation, car bought new is hard to beat) The C&D magazine article mentioned 71% of the affected TDI owners have already signed up for the scheme (in the British sense) BUYBACK ! I'm not sure why they ignored the fix %? There also seems to be a discrepancy in the numbers, 475,000 versus 485,000 units.

They makes little sense, if the job remains. For example, the job (in my case) REMAINS commuting anticipated yearly mileage (18,000) & over 15 years (270,000 to 300,000 miles) . So the scenarios are NOT mine! (timing, etc.) No one is letting us use a rental car until the next new/used car is secured. There are no loss of taxes compensations nor new/ used car tax payments.

IF there are NO fixes then de facto, sales become FORCED sales. In those cases (mine specifically) , I will hope to drive it for as long as possible before "MANDATORY" surrender.

If anyone thinks my logic is flawed, there are any number of options, none of which anyone seems willing to do.

Luckily in my case, there are multiple circumstances that make this/these situation/s entertaining & in (your 2014 TDI &) my case, extremely profitable while unfolding. One might be, as of Sep 2015, mileage & KBB used car price ($7,875) : with 3.75 year use (46,875 miles @ 12,500 per ) till June 2019 (forced) surrender. @ some point in the process, there is also that delayed no interest $5,100 emissions penalty fee & smaller TBD penalties, IF no approved fixes.

"LESS" is better anymore!

ruking1

It's interesting that it's only now the truth is coming out that at times there has been as much as a $28 spread between Brent crude vs West Texas I, barrel of oil! http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-refiners-feel-the-squeeze-as-crude-oil-discount-disappears-1479205801

It might be pretty obvious why they are trying to shut down domestic oil production!? The other secret is that very little and % of the worldwide supplies are actually Brent crude !!

texases

ruking1 said:

It's interesting that it's only now the truth is coming out that at times there has been as much as a $28 spread between Brent crude vs West Texas I, barrel of oil! http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-refiners-feel-the-squeeze-as-crude-oil-discount-disappears-1479205801

It might be pretty obvious why they are trying to shut down domestic oil production!? The other secret is that very little and % of the worldwide supplies are actually Brent crude !!

The "truth" about the difference between Brent and WTI $/Bbl is available every day, just look up the oil prices. The drop in the difference is a good thing, it encourages US drillers.

And who is "they" that is trying to shut down domestic oil production? OPEC? We're the ones that put 4 million barrels a day of new crude on the market. The oil price drop is the result of our success in producing huge new volumes of oil. Econ 101 at work.

xwesx

gagrice said:

Talked to a pastor Sunday night that has a 2014 Sportswagen TDI. He has been informed he will get $7200 and the fix when and if it is approved. No way will he sell it back. Best vehicle he has ever owned. If VW cannot get the EPA/CARB to agree on a fix that could be June 2019 before he is forced to sell back or????

So VW pulls vital components out of the buy back cars and sells them as scrap to say Mexico. No big deal to put in new ECU and away we go. There has to be dozens of ways to get around the incompetent people in the EPA and CARB.

Participation in the buyback or "fix" is entirely voluntary on the part of the owners. VW is required to meet the minimum 85% threshold, however, so I suspect that if they have a difficult time reaching that target, then they're going to start offering additional incentive to the last few needed holdouts in order to make it happen so that they do not face the ominous fine associated with the alternative.

As such, if the pastor wants to keep his TDI, he can keep it.

ruking1

One can work under any illusions one wants. I hope you are not saying there are few "sharp tools" in the (domestic oil industry) box ?

Let's hear it for crude in the $20.'s! Onward & back to $1.99 ($1.36 CA untaxed) ULSD per gal !

Would it be cool for CA to be a non neutered TDI sanctuary state? TDI lives matter! Or a RESCUE TDI.

Sanctuary seems to work for undocumented killers!

One escape feature is the PNO (Planned Nonoperation) option. No smog certification is due.

Thinking on it, in more than 416,000 miles, the 4 TDIs have never been stopped. The clock goes ticking IF the affected TDI is stopped & cited without smog certification.

While I do not think CARB would be draconian, I don't put it past them. It's obviously been a real ego thing with them & EPA.

texases

Maybe no pot 'o gold for most 3.0 TDI owners:
http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-to-fix-its-polluting-3-0-liter-diesels-save-1789019145

ruking1

Why should EPA/CARB be so much more lenient ?
http://blog.caranddriver.com/report-the-fix-is-in-for-vws-cheating-v-6-diesels/?ref=yfp

For me, it's good news!!! Give emissions penalties of $5,100 to $10,000 per. Fix the fixable. Absolve the unfixable. Call it a day already!

There is precious little that I don't like about the 2012 VW Touareg! But then, if they offered to buy it back for what was paid, or more, One would guess one would have to sadly suck it up & then go look for another ...diesel .

If they successfully are able to give the affected 3.0 L TDI's far less monies than uthe 2.0 L TDI's, it's another clear indication that all of this "diesel gate" brouhaha has been an utter sham & a pot full of lies! It should really be called " penalize / &/or tax a gate". EPA/CARB would've been shown to have use the owners as the equivalent of ISIS "human shields " to shake down VW et al.

Much slower diesel day news!

In almost bumper to bumper (afternoon to evening) commute traffic, (150 miles) one way & 70/80 mph on return. (Indeed on return there were very few cars on the freeway), the MB GLK 250 BT computer posted 38.3 mph for 300 miles ! It does beg the question of what would the GASSER (GLK 350, like model) post: better than 22 mpg, PUG?

The 2.1 L TT BT can easily run 100 mph, all day & night! It would be interesting to see what a 2.0 L MB GLC "d" will do with the 9 G AT.

ruking1

Finally saw the most unambiguous EV formula (hot,hot,hot OEM's CUV, WSJ article. The reality problem is that EV CUV is not on the market yet. Another might be the appropriate EV discounts are not applied. It obviously has not had at least five years of real world performance or ... lack there of.

But, 90 kWh for a range of 220 miles. = app .41 kWh per mile driven.

( @.25 cents (my CA penalty tier)

=10.25 cents cpmd fuel- electricity.

So is there anybody who seriously believes that (going forward) the cost per kWh, in the future is actually going to go down ?

(Remember the eia.gov link posted? Ah the cost per actual kWh @ app 2.1 to 2.5 cents per kWh.)

As a real world contrast (vs auto OEM's pie in the sky marketing hype) at 38.3 MPG $2.63 ($2.39 in Folsom, CA = 6.24 cents) ULSD=

6.867 cents cpmd: fuel.

So when you apply the EV discounts, the EV PROJECTED numbers are more like .5535 kWh * .25 (NOR CA penalty tier) = 13.83375 cents cpmd: fuel .

So really, I'm just fine with EV ers paying 101.15 % more for fuel. They are just jealous or PO'd with folks NOT paying the same!

This link is a bit off topic, but it shows how this fits into the bigger picture. As I've said more than once on this board, even Eco conservatives don't believe their own blather !?! http://www.wsj.com/articles/green-elites-trumped-1479254147

..."In fact, the climate will be the last indicator to notice any transition from Barack Obama to Donald Trump. That’s because—as climate warriors were only too happy to point out until a week ago—Mr. Obama’s own commitments weren’t going to make any noticeable dent in a putative CO2 problem."...

gagrice

We don't need no Lectric cars. We got plenty of oil. Quit polluting with Lithium batteries.

In a troubled oil world, the Permian Basin is the gift that keeps on giving.

One portion of the giant field, known as the Wolfcamp formation, was found to hold 20 billion barrels of oil trapped in four layers of shale beneath West Texas. That’s almost three times larger than North Dakota’s Bakken play and the single largest U.S. unconventional crude accumulation ever assessed, according to the U.S. Geological Survey. At current prices, that oil is worth almost $900 billion.

The estimate lends credence to the assertion from Pioneer Natural Resources CEO Scott Sheffield that the Permian’s shale could hold as much as 75 billion barrels, making it second only to Saudi Arabia’s Ghawar field. Irving-based Pioneer has been increasing its production targets all year as drilling in the Wolfcamp produced bigger gushers than the company’s engineers and geologists forecast.


http://www.star-telegram.com/news/business/article114931993.html

ruking1

Another take? Thttp://www.businessinsider.com/usgs-estimates-20-billion-oil-barrels-in-texas-wolfcamp-shale-formation-2016-11?ref=yfp

gagrice

ruking1 said:

Another take? Thttp://www.businessinsider.com/usgs-estimates-20-billion-oil-barrels-in-texas-wolfcamp-shale-formation-2016-11?ref=yfp

This should insure we have enough cheap diesel to keep on keepin' on for a very long time. At normal recovery rates that field should produce for at least 50-60 years. If it is as much as 75 billion barrels, it will be good for long after 100 years.

iluvmysephia1

This should insure we have enough cheap diesel to keep on keepin' on for a very long time. At normal recovery rates that field should produce for at least 50-60 years. If it is as much as 75 billion barrels, it will be good for long after 100 years.

It shouldn't cost any more than 61cents a diesel gallon then, eh?

ruking1

In addition to MASSIVELY HUGE DOMESTIC oil & MASSIVELY HUGE refine able" DOMESTIC diesel: ... for example, diesel & gasoline can be "molecularly" made @ a pos site. The pos site only needs access to precursor chemical & natural gas.

De facto, it's easy to realize the whole transportation to, drilling, oil field/site crude oil recovery, transportation to refinery, transportation to distribution centers, transportation to retail or pos sites goes away to greatly lessened for THOSE portions so processed. So the pos site "making & more normal combination adds to sustainability.

Diesel can ALSO be refined from many other ongoing waste stream sources WITHOUT being tied to gasoline. This adds to "sustainability". Propel is a company that has brought this concept to the normal gas station market.

It goes on & on. Indeed gasoline eventually can be seen as needed to use up those portions of oil refining yielding gasoline, needing only 40 % or LESS of the gasoline PVF DOWN from 95 to 97% . 60% diesel PVF would cut oil demand a minimum of 50% !

So if an ordinary garden-variety consumer (like me, & or others on this august board) can figure this out, its easy to see why the strategic Eco conservatives are deadly afraid. But I've seen it as a "Wizard of Oz " Hollywood fictional movie kind of thing. It fills the content library.

stever

POS site is well named.

Oh, you must mean point of sale.

ruking1

While it is true that many POS products can be a POS, yes! Point Of Sales was what I meant. Add an "S" to chemical.

The first link below SEEMS to point to the real threats @ VW (brand) have been, are & remain: 20% state & 50% union board control & its' UNIONS employees? The $$$ sales per (German) employee is almost silly. Profit per VW car have been,are, will remain fairly low. The old CEO did position VW Corporate to make a credible run to #1 WW auto oem!

To catch up to Toyota's profits (pre investment plan vote) before talks will probably NOT happen before the second coming of ...JC. After the talks? I have it on good authority that JC was not planning a third coming

http://www.wsj.com/articles/vws-chief-faces-long-road-to-overhaul-auto-maker-1479378601
This lack of "optimized" skilled labor may be the underlying cause of many to the majority of issues, i.e., perception & actual customer dissatisfaction, like quality, unreliability... et al. The business model may have worked right after 1945, World War II. WW 2 ended in 1945 almost 72 years ago!

It almost makes GM look like the epitome of progressive renaissance thinking

But then, as they untether areas like VW A, Audi, Porsche etc., and employ outside of Germany,... Yippee, yahoo for an eventual diesel return to US markets? http://blog.caranddriver.com/volkswagens-u-s-chief-diesels-could-return-a-pickup-also-possible/?ref=yfp

houdini1

I wonder if "the fix" is moving along at a faster clip because of our new President Elect?

ruking1

I'm not sure. I'm also not sure what can become of the Merkel/Obama meeting?
I'm sure the Germans can't be thrilled paying $7/$8 USD per gal with Obama vilifying them!

There was a FOX news piece about gasoline below $2.00 per gallon.

($1.99 per gal ULSD ÷38.3 mpg=. 5.2 cents per mile driven. * 18,000 miles = $936 per yr/ 12=$78 mo.) May it last a year!

houdini1

Is that much higher cost of fuel in Europe mostly because of taxes or am I missing something? If it is taxes, I have no sympathy for them.

fintail

It's all taxes in Europe, and maybe marginally a weak (realistically valued) Euro. They get stuff for their taxes. Here, well...

They subsidize diesel, too, or should I say, tax it less.

ruking1

The EU actually uses far LESS than 50% oil, by having 50 % to 60% diesel PVF.

The EU needs to remember, (llike I think it's going to get them to radically shift their policies) that sooner or later socialistic societies run out of other people's moneies!

CA takes in $.63 cents per gal on $1.36 ULSD! That is 46.32 % taxation! Politicians have a long since used these transportion monies for "petty cash spending monies". OMG when Exxon makes 9%/ 9 cents, a certain segment wants to string them up! Be that as it may, they have deferred all but the most essential pieces of maintenance. So to give them much more money and expect them to do the right thing when they should have fixed roads with a portion of those monies already are acts of insanity.! One does not need to subscribe to Albert Einstein's definition of insanity to figure that out!

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

gagrice

It would be novel if California were to spend more than the current 15 cents on the dollar of gas tax on fixing roads and bridges. Don't forget the Feds also get well head tax, refining taxes, tax taxes. I would be surprised if we are not paying well over 50% taxes on a gallon of gas/diesel.

Today the off ramp we use on interstate 8 was brand new asphalt. Feeding onto a road that looks like it was used by WW2 tanks. Money is being spent on infrastructure. Just rarely where it is really needed. They just did a dandy job of paving the main street through our village. It has been torn up for 3 years putting in the buried power link from the W&S farms in the desert. It is beautiful black and smooth asphalt. Well you guessed it. This morning they are digging a 3 foot wide trench down one lane. Ooops they forgot to put the storm drains in to protect the town from flooding. Poor planning on their part equals more tax rip-off. The culprit will probably get a promotion for creating jobs.

fintail

Someone's brother in law probably owns the bid-winning construction company. Those and real estate industry speculators are some of the most crooked industries ever created.

stever

Lots of times the capital improvements money (match funds) go away if they aren't used. So they pave something knowing full well they'll have to dig part of it up again in a year or two. So they get and use the highway trust fund dollars, and then fix the sewer the next year with USDA money.

Easy solution is just to go back to gravel roads. Good for traffic calming too, although I remember doing 70 on some parts of the Alcan back in the day.

Safelite did not sponsor this message....

Diesel is around $2.15 here, down about four cents. Regular is hitting $1.90 to $1.95 most places.

gagrice

Lots of times the capital improvements money (match funds) go away if they aren't used.

It was that way in the Corporate world as well. Back in the 1960s at Pacific Telephone, the last couple months of the year they would give us all the OT we wanted. If they did not use all that was budgeted the next year their budget was smaller. Stupidity is everywhere. Now it likely goes into the CEO's wallet instead of the working stiff's.

stever

We went to a meeting at the museum a couple of days and noticed a new TV on the wall of the meeting room. Someone wondered why they bothered, and I guessed that their fiscal year probably just ended and they had to spend money on something before the new fiscal year kicked in.

ruking1

Costco @ Folsom, CA, $2.39 for ULSD, $$2.25 for RUG, $2.59 PUG. @ RUG/PUG are "niche" blendings! There is 4% cash back for Costco cc's. Backing out 63 cents, ULSD is $1.76 per gal.

stevedebi

OK, we are definitely selling the Passat TDI back. Here is the Final Final Final straw:

Went to look at a 2017 Gasser Passat SEL as a replacement. The EPA MPG is 34. However, I discovered that the 2016 gasser Passat is rated at 38. I smell another rat - the same engine, transmission, and vehicle, but is suddenly rated 4 MPG less? It means they changed something - like removing a cheat code from the gassers as well. Sorry, VW, we need to have at least SOME trust in the company.

Has anyone heard a reasonable explanation for the MPG drop that would explain this?

ruking1

No. But the real question: what are YOUR top 5? The 2017 Passat is the 5th & last model year of that generation of change to the five-year platform from 7 years. So I would look at fuelly.com for the real world numbers. A quick look posts 29.5 mph. The most appealing incentive @ this time seems to be 60 months at .9% moneies. Purely my guess are that incentives will get better as the year goes on, because they want to be able to clear the old stock and look to the 2018 .

gagrice

Has anyone heard a reasonable explanation for the MPG drop that would explain this?

I see the Toyota Camry with like engine has lower mileage for 2017 than 2016 as well. Could be changes in the EPA requirements. Honda stayed the same. Nissan Altima is EPA rated 39 Hwy, and less money.

kyfdx

stevedebi said:

OK, we are definitely selling the Passat TDI back. Here is the Final Final Final straw:

Went to look at a 2017 Gasser Passat SEL as a replacement. The EPA MPG is 34. However, I discovered that the 2016 gasser Passat is rated at 38. I smell another rat - the same engine, transmission, and vehicle, but is suddenly rated 4 MPG less? It means they changed something - like removing a cheat code from the gassers as well. Sorry, VW, we need to have at least SOME trust in the company.

Has anyone heard a reasonable explanation for the MPG drop that would explain this?

My friend was shopping Passats, and noticed the same thing. Ended up leasing a 2017 SE w/Tech.
Never got an explanation for the difference, though

ruking1

Your observations falls into the diesel wheel house package of points: diesels almost always do better than their own EPA mpg's & like model gasser EPA mpg's.

I've posted the 2014 MB GLK 250 BT mpg's any number of times. Here is one 2013 take, I've not known about till posting. http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1089423_mercedes-benz-glk-250-bluetec-diesel-luxury-crossover-fuel-economy

Anecdotally, I have never had any problems beating the EPA mpg estimates on any gasser.

But at the same time, Wayne Gerdes, the mpg guru used TDI's to set mpg records.

stever

Nobody drives like Wayne.

Thank goodness!

ruking1

I If these three numbers: 1. 23,000 to 30,000 job loss (to attrition ONLY) 2. 600,000 jobs remaining ( ZERO meaningful cuts ) 3. $ 20 B in losses & counting, don't tell you why VW (@ various levels) are having "issues" ?? !! Not much else ... will!
https://www.bloomberg.com/gadfly/articles/2016-11-18/vw-job-cuts-sound-big-but-do-little-to-boost-efficiency?ref=yfp

http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswagen-set-to-slash-up-to-30-000-jobs-1479455462

But then, as I've noted more than once,VW car buying opportunities abound !

Scientists have found a way to turn CO2 into ethanol. Why are there NO (Eco conservative) ethanol fuel PVF % targets??? http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a50804/convert-co2-into-ethanol/?ref=yfp

E85 has a NOT even measurable % PVF.

10% (real world) ethanol use makes a 10%/15% ethanol PVF target an absolute no-brainer!

Add 50% to 60% PVF diesel targets, with the remaining 30% gasoline PVF targets, and you've literally DECIMATED ( well actually much better, in the Latin/Roman soldier sense) the barrels of oil DEMAND percentage by minimum of 50% to 70% !!! You want more you say? Fine, set 10% EV PVF targets !! Then readjust the %'s. They would then be 10% ethanol, 30% gasoline, 50%/60% diesel, 10% EV. Personally, I think 10 to 20% PVF could be natural gas!

The all or none conversions, i.e.EV, kill diesel, etc. that the Eco conservatives advocate is completely/totally asinine. Eco conservative ideation & its efforts truly approaches the definition of insanity !

slorenzen

"This new powerplant, the Mercedes-Benz OM 654, provides 13 percent lower fuel consumption and CO2 emissions, while gaining 24 hp over its predecessor, the OM 651. The OM 654 is the first four-cylinder diesel in a new family of engines Mercedes says is “future-proof.”

http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/mercedes-benz’s-new-ground-breaking-diesel-the-om-654/ar-AAkqIuI?ocid=U145DHP#image=1

fintail

Are those numbers right? Torque looks way down.

slorenzen

fintail said:

Are those numbers right? Torque looks way down.

fintail said:

Are those numbers right? Torque looks way down.

Yeah, that's what I thought too.

ruking1

I'm liking what's currently available 2.1 L TT @ 369 # ft!

BUT If 13% lower FE is more important, for my 38.3 mpg posting that's 5 mpg=43.28 mpg!