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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,480
    edited December 2013

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/vw-39-push-americans-buy-diesel-cars-working-195528646.html

    Interesting take on success of 13 YTD diesels

    VW's Push To Make Americans Buy Diesel Cars Is Working Really Well Business Insider By Alex Davies

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,480
    edited December 2013

    Another "in context" article

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/consumer-spending-vehicles-forecast-time-high-december-004500962.html

    So if the projections come to pass, VW with 557,000 (13YTD Nov) have MORE than app 4.35% of a projected 12.8 M vehicle 2013 yearly sales/marketshare.

  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,346

    Caught an episode of Coronation St today (I have a friend in England and she asks me at times if I watch it so she can compare notes) and there was this scene where some regulars had rented an S Class to attend a wedding on set. Haha..MB wudda been squirming a bit their seats if they caught it..the producers musta had the microphone for the scene literally right under the hood. It was so loud it made it sound almost like a Mac truck..lol That said though, it did still sound quite tight and precise...the way that MB diesel sixes do sound. Although..not to be too hard on their 4s cuz they too sound good. The only Asian 4 cyl diesel I've heard that sounds anywhere near as precise as a MB was my old 3.4 l NA Land Bruiser's engine. What a monster it would have been had they turbo'd it.

    Not to leave VW out in the cold here tho..cuz their TDI (and previous, FTM) 4 cyl sounded better than my Isuzu 2.2 or Toyota 2.4 ever did.

    My fav though remains MB for precise and tight sound. They're the Cat™ among cars.

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,681

    I can tell you, if MB had brought the ML250 Bluetec to America I would have jumped on it. I like both the ML and the GLK. Just for cross country I wanted the space of the ML. To get the ML350 Bluetec equipped like the VW Touareg TDI Lux would have been a LOT more money. Maybe Mercedes will offer both in this 3rd World country. The 250 Bluetec has more than enough power for the ML. The ML250 Bluetec sold in the UK gets great mileage..

  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,346

    As I started to read your post, I was thinking what you ended up saying here: The 250 Bluetec has more than enough power for the ML.

    I continue to be amazed at the torque figure of that 2.1 twin turbo. And yes, it certainly has enough to power for the weight of the ML or the Touareg if VW were to copy whatever MB has done with little monster motor. Of course it wouldn't have the almost giggle inducing acceleration when merging or two-lane passing, that the VW T with the six has but nonetheless it wouldn't even be close to being the slowest on the road either.

    This past summer I was in my friends '12 ML with 4 (fairly big) guys. Three of us well over 200lb each. It was a boy's w/e reunion..(was a great w/e) and when tromping down..not floored mind you, but just somewhat aggressive enough for it to kick down into 4th at about 55, my gosh that thing would just pull like a freight train. Plus it had an incredible sound system. I'm still green :(

    It also had a presence that seemed to flow from the outside parking lot view, into the interior that created this feeling of being really really safe if anyone were to cell-phone their way into our lane unexpectedly. I would imagine the VW T must evoke a similar confidence compared to...say...a Traverse? or some other such similarly weighted vehicle.

    Yesterday, as I was backing out of a space in town I looked to my right and (up..waay up) and darned if there wasn't a Seqouia sitting there towering down on me. It was a rare sight. Hardly ever see them around here. Those things are big! No wonder yours was as thirsty as it was. In a way..it's a bit shocking the thing did as well as it did really.

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,681

    I was basing my opinion on the several reviews of the ML250 Bluetec slated for US delivery.

    Though Mercedes-Benz originally intended to introduce new four-cylinder diesel versions of the E-Class, GLK-Class and M-Class in the U.S. for 2014, it now seems that one of those models may not arrive on our shores after all.

    The tri-star automaker has decided to indefinitely delay the U.S. launch of the ML250 BlueTec, according to a Car and Driver report. The oil-burning 'ute remains a possibility for the 2015 model year, although it's equally likely that Mercedes will simply decide to can plans to bring it stateside altogether.

    The ML250 was expected to use the same 190 horsepower, 369 lb-ft of torque 2.1-liter turbodiesel four-cylinder found in the GLK250 BlueTEC and E250 BlueTEC. Mercedes never clarified whether the ML250 would replace or supplement the existing ML350 BlueTEC, which utilizes a 3.0-liter turbodiesel V6 with 240 horsepower, 455 lb-ft of torque and fuel efficiency of 20 city/28 highway mpg.

    Several factors could explain Mercedes' hesitance to launch the ML250.

    The ML350 BlueTEC has been a decent success for Mercedes, accounting for roughly 15 percent of total ML sales in the U.S., and the ML250 might steal a significant amount of volume from the higher-profit six-cylinder diesel model. Depending on pricing, the ML250 could also be positioned right on top of the GLK250 BlueTEC, causing further sales cannibalization.

    In essence, it may be a case of too many models for too small of a niche.

    By Nat Shirley Friday, Jun 14th, 2013 @ 5:38 pm

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,681

    The Sequoia is big for sure. Not nearly as big as my 1998 Suburban, with far less usable space. That beast generally got 12-13 MPG mixed driving. And one memorable tank at 17 MPG on a trip through the Sierras. The Sequoia was plusher and better riding than the Suburban. Neither was even close on acceleration to any of the diesel offerings. I am sure even the GLK250 Bluetec would Get to 60 MPH faster and easily beat them 30-70 MPH. I do miss the extra room for stuff while traveling. However nothing else is close. The Touareg is faster, quieter, better handling and riding by far. I don't miss either one now. Here is a British review of the ML we are not going to get. Can you imagine the ML getting 37 MPG US combined?

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/lifestyle/motoring/review-mercedes-benz-ml-250-bluetec-1478087

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,480
    edited December 2013

    What I like the best are barriers and expectations are being broken down and exceeded. Probably my favorite is the 30% or more diesel mpg advantage over RUG/PUG and taser/ hybrid.

    So for example, 369 # ft of torque for a 2.1 L 4 cylinder (let alone diesel) was literally unheard of, a very short time ago. Of course, a twin turbo was a rarified outlier. Both (under the MB nameplate) are game changers.

    Now I really LIKE the 3.0 L 6 cylinder TDI with 8 speed A/T (dare I say robust and bulletproof- Audi/VW/Porsche) . Again, in the short past, 406 # ft of torque was in the SUPER CAR leagues.

    It almost goes without saying the 31 to 33 mpg on (SOS DD) mountain road trips (30 mpg currently for this tank full in this slough) to 39.8 mpg MPG is not hard to take also.

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,046

    @ruking1 said: What I like the best are barriers and expectations are being broken down and exceeded. So for example, 369 # ft of torque for a 2.1 L 4 cylinder (let alone diesel) was literally unheard of a very short time ago. Of course, a twin turbo was a rarified outlier also. Both (under the MB nameplate) are game changers.

    Now I really LIKE the 3.0 L 6 cylinder TDI with 8 speed (dare I say robust and bulletproof- Audi/VW/Porsche) . Again, in the short past, 406 # ft of torque was in the SUPER CAR leagues.

    It almost goes without saying the 39.8 mpg and (mostly) less MPG (30 mpg currently for this tank full in this slough) is not hard to take also.

    Aren't these 8 speed automatics mostly the ZF unit that has become very popular in all kinds of vehicles? From the (Dodge) RAM to the Audi A6 to the Bentley Continental this tranny is very popular and is highly rated for perfomance as well.

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,480
    edited December 2013

    That is correct. ZF is indeed one competitor, the other (for VW) Aisin. I read in passing that Dodge has a license from ZF. GM is resurrecting an A/T plant (Ohio?) to ramp up for an 8 speed A/T surge.

    Right now, Dodge's 9 sped A/T is both not cost effective and needs some to a lot of tweaking. Another article I read in passing are plans for more speeds, 9,10,11,12? in the A/T.

    "Better transmissions " for the mpg grail hunt is indeed part of the equation, albeit more expensive. I do understand a lot of gassers use the CVT. Some examples that come to mind are Prius, Subaru, Accord. I have heard complaints across the spectrum about the "rubber band" effect. I really do not know the mpg advantage over say a 6 speed A/T.

    Anecdotally, the 8 speed A/T is pretty seamless and I am pretty impressed with it over all. I still have to think about it when I am in the "manual" shift gate. It promises to be robust (627 # ft capacity for a 406# ft TDI) and durable. ( I will be REALLY impressed @ 500,000 miles)

  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,346

    The 8 speed in the Touareg is an Aisin. Very conservatively built and designed too apparently. Probably end up being bullet-proof with the 3.0l TDI. I have read here that it's a wonderful shifting tranny, not busy but responsive, smooth and smart. I have heard that the ZF (so far) has similar impressive comments when used in the new Rams. (or is it a ZF design but is actually blood rooted as the old Torque Flite? ...I've read both versions).

  • tifightertifighter WAPosts: 1,349
    edited December 2013

    @crkyolfrt Tangent, but can't help but give a thumbs up to the only OTHER person I've seen that has had a ST1300 and a Majesty. Had a 06 black ST ABS, and a 05 blue Majesty. See you around.

  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,346
    edited December 2013

    Interesting, tifighter. I still have both. Can't bring myself to part with the ST but a pinched nerve in my back has made it harder and harder to actually get on the thing, hence why I bought the scooter. As you know, the little 395cc has a lot of heart. I do miss the ability to shift down tho for doing corners. I really thrash the little bugger tho, altho rear unsprung weight from so much weight being hung all on those two mediocre rear springs, makes for quite a hard kick on my poor ol' back on some of the roads around here. Jumping on the ST though after a month on the scooter, makes for some renewed adrenaline rushes.

    I have the first year, an 03.. has the power W/shield and ABS like yours. And I must say, the ABS system with the linked brakes is a really really good system. Better than many of the earlier BMWs apparently. I have felt it only once, and it was very confidence inspiring. I'm HUGE believer in ABS for bikes. More so than on a cars frankly. They're quite simply potential T-Bone savers in the wet. My VFR had the linked, but no ABS. It was the last of the gear-driven cams gen.

    Sounds like you no longer have either bike?

    edit..I was going to post a pic but can't seem to find the 'attachment' button anywhere now. Maybe it's not part of an edit capability?

  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,346

    @gagrice said: The Sequoia is big for sure. Not nearly as big as my 1998 Suburban, with far less usable space. That beast generally got 12-13 MPG mixed driving. And one memorable tank at 17 MPG on a trip through the Sierras. The Sequoia was plusher and better riding than the Suburban. Neither was even close on acceleration to any of the diesel offerings. I am sure even the GLK250 Bluetec would Get to 60 MPH faster and easily beat them 30-70 MPH. I do miss the extra room for stuff while traveling. However nothing else is close. The Touareg is faster, quieter, better handling and riding by far. I don't miss either one now. Here is a British review of the ML we are not going to get. Can you imagine the ML getting 37 MPG US combined?

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/lifestyle/motoring/review-mercedes-benz-ml-250-bluetec-1478087

    It never ceases to amaze me how many common-sense powertrain options are available for so many vehicles in the EU. What we have here in comparo, almost makes us 3rd world to them :(

    And yes..I (and anyone else who already drives a recent heavy 4x4 diesel equipped SUV type) could imagine such an incredible mileage figure on such a heavy vehicle as the ML with that little 2.1. It's incredibly capable. I sure hope it ends up having great longevity potential though, since it really must be putting out close the max torque that size block can handle. There's only so much room in there for main bearings and beef.

  • Stever@EdmundsStever@Edmunds YooperlandPosts: 38,931
    edited December 2013

    @crkyolfrt said: edit..I was going to post a pic but can't seem to find the 'attachment' button anywhere now. Maybe it's not part of an edit capability?

    Looks like you are right. All you get in the Edit mode is the Image button, which means your photo would have to be hosted somewhere. I recommend imgur.com.

  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,346

    @Stever@Edmunds said: Looks like you are right. All you get in the Edit mode is the Image button, which means your photo would have to be hosted somewhere. I recommend imgur.com.

    But wasn't that one of the new features the new site was suppose to have? I recall being able to on the Vanilla site. Whatever happened to that site, btw? Did this one just replace it and all content in it is lost now?

  • fintailfintail Posts: 32,902

    I do like the smooth purr of the Bluetec in my car, especially once it is warmed up. Although I am very curious about the 4cyl unit - almost as much power, more efficient, lighter. Might see a small handling improvement, but perhaps with a small increase in NVH (which I don't mind, but the average non-traditionalist MB buyer might).

    At this exact moment, diesel might only work for heavier expensive cars that require premium, though. My local Chevron has RUG 3.29, PUG 3.59, diesel 3.99.

    @crkyolfrt said: My fav though remains MB for precise and tight sound. They're the Cat™ among cars.

  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,206
    edited December 2013

    @crkyolfrt said:It never ceases to amaze me how many common-sense powertrain options are available for so many vehicles in the EU. What we have here in comparo, almost makes us 3rd world . . .

    Almost? We can all thank the EPA powertrain qualification rigamarole for much of this, and the California Air Resource Board for the rest. There are dozens of powertrain combos, mostly diesel, available elsewhere in the world that we'll never see here.

    Someone somewhere thinks this is a good thing.

  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,346

    @cdnpinhead said: Someone somewhere thinks this is a good thing.

    I hear ya..

  • Stever@EdmundsStever@Edmunds YooperlandPosts: 38,931
    edited December 2013

    @crkyolfrt said: But wasn't that one of the new features the new site was suppose to have? I recall being able to on the Vanilla site. Whatever happened to that site, btw? Did this one just replace it and all content in it is lost now?

    The test platform had a lot of stuff enabled to see how it worked. The "real" site got rolled out with fewer options to try to avoid glitches and ease us all into it. Once we get a good handle on how members and guests are using this place, we may implement some more plug-ins. The test platform reverted to in-house access only.

    Back at the hospital with the MIL tonight. Gas popped .14 cents but the one diesel place is hanging at $3.76 so the differential there is down to .37 cents. The cheap gas place is still running at $3.15 for RUG and I need gas, but the lines were nuts. Small station and it was "rush hour". Most other diesel stations are at $3.99.

    [edit, just got another tank before they went up to match everyone else. :) ]

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