Certified Pre-Owned Vehicles

isellhondas

Where these numbers come from. Once in awhile I'll get one of those people who try to quantify everything. It's impossible to put a hard number on this.

excl2005

isellhondas:

"Where these numbers come from. Once in awhile I'll get one of those people who try to quantify everything. It's impossible to put a hard number on this. "

* I'm one of those people who refuses to spend $800.00 - $900.00 of their hard-earned money for a certified Honda that only entailed a simple lube job, tire rotation, and a quick vacuum job.

* I'm one of those people who is going to request, politely of course, that the Honda dealership provide me with all of their invoices for all the work done on this "certified car."

* I'm one of those people that will request that I be allowed take this "certified car" to an independent, ASE-certified, master mechanic look it over from the front bumper to the tailpipe.

No offense isellhondas, but there are customers who want to know what their money is getting them, especially when paying that premium/profit for a certified, pre-owned Honda vehicle!

Sincerely,
~D~

isellhondas

You can get off your high horse now...

I can't speak for other Honda dealers but this is what we do...

I go over the inspection report line by line with my used car customers. It doesn't matter if it's a certified car or not. I show them exactly what we found on the inspection and I show them copies of the repair orders that spell out what we did.

Even on the cars that didn't need any repairs you are getting much more than a lube job, tire rotation and vaccum. You are getting a car that has been brought up to speed on it's scheduled maintenance. You are also getting an extended warranty.

If you STILL want to take it to another shop for their opinion, that's fine. Just make sure it's a shop that knows Hondas. Once in a blue moon, I'll have a customer ask to do this. No problem, but it's a waste of money since the car is covered by the long warranty anyway.

And it IS impossible to put a hard number on the value of a certified car. That's all I said.

excl2005

Here are the basics for a Honda Certified Used Vehicle:

* 150 point inspection
* Vehicle history report, not sure how it differs from CarFax, but that's okay
* Seven-year/100,000 mile powertrain warranty from the date first sold.
* Additional 12-month/12,000-mile warranty
* No deductable

What dollar value do you put on each line item, except for the No Deductable?

~D~

isellhondas

Is simply a Car Fax we will be happy to show you.

Maybe someone else can better place a dollar figure on the other items because I can't.

I can tell you that buying an extended warranty that would cover the same things would probably run around a thousand dollars depending on the car, mileage and the company selling the coverage.

CarMan@Edmunds

Hi everyone. Edmunds.com recently published two new articles on Certified New Vehicles that some of you may enjoy: How to Buy a Certified Pre-Owned Vehicle and Extended Warranties Vs. Certified Used Car Programs. Please feel free to use this discussion to talk about these two articles or to continue discussing CPO vehicles in general. Thanks.

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landru2

What's the big mystery? Go and price out how much those warranties cost, add the price of a carfax report and the price of the 150 point inspection. There you go.

If buying a certified car isn't worth it to you, then don't buy one. Simple.

excl2005

I'm willing to except paying for that extra value for a certified, pre-owned vehicle these two things can be verified:

1. Who is doing the inspection? An ASE certified mechanic
2. How many times are the inspections done in accordance to the specific recommendations made by the car manufacturer.

Matter of fact, at Toyota, dealers are subject to third-party surprise inspections, to make sure that the certified program is being properly implemented. At some Toyota dealerships, they have an independent group that goes to dealerships and spot checks three or four vehicles. If they find that a dealership is not properly inspecting the cars, they would counsel them on how to do it. If that doesn't work, the worst case scenario is that Toyota would decertify the dealership - they will no longer be allowed to offer the certified program.

I would like to know if Honda has a similar program, like Toyota's? This would certainly set my mind and wallet at ease.

I truly want to believe that for every shady dealership who abuses the pre-owned certification program, there are many legitimate dealerships that provide a complete overview of a vehicle's mechanical fitness.

rroyce10

....**If they find that a dealership is not properly inspecting the cars, they would counsel them on how to do it** ..

           That makes for a good story line, but that's far from reality .. no dealer wants to sell a bad vehicle and 95% don't .. but if you have this idea that the Toyota rep comes in and pulls 18 vehicles off the front line and yanks them in the service dept and checks them out, then "counsels" the dealer - that just doesn't happen .l.o.l..

          When a trade comes in, or they buy them at the auction they get a normal "look see", they get the "around the block" trip and if there isn't some glaring sounds or something suspicious, then they get an oil change, filter, maybe a tire rotation and a detail and they get listed in the inventory and off they go .. the dealers will depend on the standing factory warranty and/or the "certified" warranty (that you pay for) to cover any future problems ...

          Honda makes some great vehicles, so if you find one you like and a good dealer, then I'm sure it will do you fine down the road with a good inspection and a better history .. if you buying based on some "magic dust" (dealers are subject to third-party surprise inspections) then you are a little misinformed.

                     Terry.

excl2005

Thanks rroyce10 for the information.

Actually, I believe that corporate Toyota supposedly hires a third party to do the random, spot inspections of Toyota dealerships across the country. It's actually a novel approach to keeping the "shady" dealerships in line.

Yet, no one has yet to answer my question as to who does Honda's lengthy, detailed, 150 pt. inspection? I've seen it, and it's not for the faint of heart. I get the impression as what rroyce10 said:

"When a trade comes in, or they [dealers] buy them at the auction they get a normal "look see", they get the "around the block" trip and if there isn't some glaring sounds or something suspicious, then they get an oil change, filter, maybe a tire rotation and a detail and they get listed in the inventory and off they go .. the dealers will depend on the standing factory warranty and/or the "certified" warranty (that you pay for) to cover any future problems ..."

Sure, the 2003 Honda Accord EX has a seven-year/100,000 mile power train warranty from the date first sold Plus, the additional 12-month/12,000-mile warranty. But who wants to chronically take time off from work to take in a pre-certified car that has a whole host of mechanical problems. Try returning this "lemon" to the dealership, and it's going to turn into WW III. Sure, I can take comfort that I can take in the car every other day to the dealership to have them fix something under the warranty, but it's a real, unnecessary, pain!!!

I guess you have to the take the "word" of the dealership that they performed every task on Honda's, 150-point inspection list. Talk about "blind faith."

isellhondas

There are a few people who just shouldn't buy a used car. I think you may be one of these people.

If a person is that leary and distrustful, they are much better off just buying new.

Any dealer who values their reputation isn't going to sell you a bad used car or hide problems. They will either fix the car or send it off to the auction or to a wholesaler.

excl2005

Like everything in life, you have to take the initiative and do it yourself, which is what I did.

I simply asked about ten Honda dealerships within a 250 mile radius of Tampa, Florida, about their certified, pre-owned program and got a response from three. A 30% response is sort of discouraging but take it for what it's worth.

One of the Honda dealerships took the "cahones" to answer the questions of a complete stranger with utmost honesty, which means a lot to me:

This is their response:

Thank you for your interest in purchasing a Honda.

Honda's Certified Pre-Owned program is one of the best in the industry, and I would recommend it to anyone. The dealer is required to maintain detailed records that show compliance with the extensive certified program requirements. Failure to do so can result in penalties from Honda and trigger an audit that could ultimately result in revocation of the dealer's right to participate in the program.

Having said that, it is always in the buyer's best interest to "inspect what you expect" and with that in mind I will attempt to answer your questions.

Yes, ******* Honda will allow you access to the maintenance repair invoices on the vehicle you are interested in.

All ******* Honda certified cars are inspected and worked on by ASE certified technicians. In most cases we have them inspected and worked on by ASE techs that have obtained the Master level.

To quantify or qualify the value of an automobile purchase is a subjective process and we would be happy to provide you with any supporting information to help you make your decision.

We do not have a problem allowing an independent inspection of a vehicle you are interested in buying. This can usually be arranged within a couple of hour time period prior to purchase. These inspections are only as good as the technician making them, and can be impacted by their motivation to do the work they recommend. We only ask that you keep this in mind and use a qualified ASE technician (preferably master level) who is known to you.

I hope this has helped you with your questions, if you require any additional information please let us know. We look forward to the opportunity of helping you with your car purchase.

Sincerely,
*********
******* Honda Internet Department

rroyce10

isellhondas

That others here already provided these same answers?

explorerx4

to 'certified' cars having a warranty.
one time we had a problem with a car. it had an aftermarket extended warranty. the service wrter said he had to check with the warranty company, to see if his dealership authorized to repair. i asked him why. he said they had a used car manager who bought defective cars cheap, and included an extented warranty with the sale. that way the warranty company would pay for the repairs the buyers would come in with to get fixed.

excl2005

I posted my question about two weeks ago, and I got responses that were neither helpful nor informative, to say the least. So, I decided to ask the questions myself, instead of relying on complete strangers.

Based on my little research project, not all Honda Certified Pre-owned programs are as forth-coming or proud as others in regards to their program, which speaks volumes to me.

The way I look at it, if a Honda dealership cannot put 100% confidence behind its certified pre-owned program, don't go to that dealership! It's really that simple!

As to one of the Honda dealerships that actually responded to my series of questions about their certified, pre-owned program, their eloquent response says it all:

"it is always in the buyer's best interest to 'inspect what you expect'"

This Honda dealership will in all probability get my business and my hard-earn trust!

Sincerely,
~D~

rroyce10

isellhondas

Not at all...the program is the same in every dealership.

I agree with the 100% confidence part. that should go without saying.

As long as the poster is happy, I guess that's what matters...

skull525

i bouhgt a 2004 pontiac grand prix the dealer said it was gm certified how do i know for sure it was certified is there any wed site that i can go and check

rroyce10

...... You should have received some papers at delivery, or perhaps you will get that information when the rest come in ...

          Just remember it's basically a warranty, a extended warranty that "You paid" for .. the word "certified" kinda get's hashed around like -oh, it got blessed by the church .. it's still a warranty.

                      Terry

mtv65

My original message from 5-series board -

01-03 model years to be more specific. I've got ~$25k to spend on a car, any car. Here's the list so far - 01-03MY E39 530i with SPP or E46 330i with SPP(sport package), Audi B5 S4(the V6 Bi-turbo) sedan but prefer an Avant. I'm biased towards the BMW having owned several from 2002 to e36 328i to E36 M3 but the S4 sure does make a point. I've test driven a lot of cars these past few weeks and have finally narrowed it down to these 3 very impressive machines. Thanks in advance for your response!!

Also -

Where do you suggest I take the vehicle (i.e. 530i) for inspection? This is the most critical stage of buying used IMHO. Do I take it to the nearest BMW dealer? Would their inspection be as thorough as if they were certifying it?? Also, how much should I expect to pay for this service?

TIA,
Manny in Cali

mtv65

Alright, sold the CrewCab over the weekend...ready to buy. What's a good buy for ~$25k given this scenario. Young couple in their 30's with 1 child and a medium sized dog, Springer Spaniel if it matters . We've looked at 3 and 5 series wagons as well as Audi Avants. From what I've read here at TownHall, Audi's are a reliability risk. Any specific years that I should avoid and why? I like the bmw sedans/wagons a lot but cost is a factor. Definitely no SUV's. Definitely has to be a euro performer. Thanks again to all!!!

-Manny in Cali

stickguy

If you weren't hung up on the Euro badge, a Mazda 6S wagon could do the job. Brand new and loaded, for less than your price limit.

I happen to like the BMWs also, big trick is finding one at a reasonable price. IMo, the dealers overprice the CPO units, but it is tricky finding one on the open market (particularly the wagons).

One place to look is preownedbmws.com This is a used BMW only dealer in N. VA. I think they are still a little pricey, but often have a nice selection (I have never actually been there, but do check out the site on occasion, so I can't vouch for them).

Actually, a used SAAB 9-5 can get you into a fairly recent vintage Euro wagon for much less than the BMW.

mtv65

Thanks stickguy! My wife actually likes the quirky Swede (9-5 Wagon). Saw one at last year's AutoShow and she was just crazy about that cupholder. Any reliability issues with these cars?

stickguy

I'm not an expert, but I think the 9-5s are pretty well sorted out at this point.

isellhondas

I'm not a fan of Saabs. They are quirky like a Volvo. They also depreciate like a rock.

Still, they do have their loyal fans.

Sylvia

See the survey link at the top section of the page - your chance to win $500

carwoman

i'm in the market for a lightly used luxury car - either lexus, jaguar or bmw. maybe 2- 3 years old. the certified ones all come with warranties. the free spirit in me wants a jag or bmw, but i'm afraid even with a warranty, i'll spend waay to much time/money on repairs if it's not brand new? is this true? i'm not knowlegeable on cars and don't want headaches. should i stick with ol' rliable (lexus)? i appreciate any advice.

rroyce10

........ "Certified" vehicles are fine, but your gonna spend an extra $1,5/$3,000 depending on the vehicle ... that being said, you "Got" to have one on a Bimmer/Benz/Audi/Jag and Definitely a Porsche if your going to be driving over 50k ...

          The nice thing about Acura, Lexus vehicles is that folks have no fear of buying a 50/60/75k vehicle (properly serviced) ...

                               Terry

carwoman

Thanks! So if I buy a Lexus it doesn't need to be certified?
Between a used Lexus and certified Jag or BMW, do you think there's a big difference in maintenance and repairs?

rroyce10

..... ** do you think there's a big difference in maintenance and repairs? **

               Naaaw, not at all .. it's just when you purchase a Jag, you have to adopt a mechanic named Neville, Rupert or Lord Barrington and if it's a Bimmer you have to look for someone named Friedrich, Fritz or Gandulf ............... stay with the Lexus and keep your own name, and the $$.

                       Terry ;-)

CarMan@Edmunds

There are tons of good used luxury vehicles out there that are not Certified Pre-Owned. With any used vehicle, it is a good idea for you or to have someone who is knowledgeable check it out thoroughly. If reliability is a major concern of yours, you definitely should go with a Lexus rather than a Jaguar or BMW. On average a used Lexus is much less likely to have problems than either the Jag or the Bimmer.

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ejsj

I'm being offered a 2002 Lexus RX300, certified, for $28,500. It only has 20,000 miles...is this a good deal or should I hold out for a lower price?

CarMan@Edmunds

Hi ejsj. You should look up the used vehicle that you are considering in the following section of Edmunds.com to get an idea of how good a price you were quoted: Edmunds.com - Used Vehicles. You may also want to stop by the following discussion that appears right here on the Smart Shoppers Message Board: "Real-World Trade-In Values". One of our most knowledgeable community members, Terry, hangs out there and he is often kind enough to provide his opinion on used vehicles' prices if you provide a detailed description of the vehicle that you are considering, including your location.

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vibegtx

I purchased an Audi A4 Avant back in August of 2003. I traded in my 1998 VW New Beetle for a larger, family car to carry around my elderly parents. When I discovered the Audi was covered by the Audi Assured Warranty, and had passed a rigerous, pre-sales inspection, I signed up right then!

I'm saddened, and bitter about the CPO program offered by Audi because when I took the car in for it's first service, there was nearly $6000 worth of work that needed to be done to the car. Worn suspension parts, cracked Turbo housing, rear diffential leaking. Yes, all the repairs were covered by the Warranty, but the way Audi explains it's coverage, all these repairs should have been performed BEFORE I ever saw the car, let alone purchased it.

In talking with the dealership (Sonnen Motors in Marin County) and Audi Corporate, it became clear to me that the Dealership can 'certify' a car, just by paying Audi a fee (basically covering the warranty)

After various other things went wrong with the car, I was forced to trade it in on a Pontiac Vibe GT. I really hated to do it, but the Audi had become unreliable and since I transport my family and use the car for my business, it had to go.

Just know, the CPO program is only as good as the paper it's written on. I got burned, and have no recourse other than hiring an attorney and suing both the dealership and Audi.

I would think Audi would do a better job of this... but I was wrong, and I'm out $7K because of it!

Thanks for listening to my griping

VibeGTX

isellhondas

That those problems didn't occur during the time you bought it and it's first service?

How many miles between those too events?

On an Audi, nothing would surprise me. In my expereince I can't think of a more troublesome car.

mrbrando

I was just wondering if a "carfax certified" vehicle is the same as saying it's a "certified vehicle" and thus justifies the price increase of a certified vehicle?

CarMan@Edmunds

Hi mrbrando. I am not all that familiar with the Carfax Certification of used vehicles, but I suspect that it has something to do with the fact that CarFax verifies that a used vehicle has not been in a major accident. If this is the case, then this is very different than a manufacturer's certified pre-owned program. The main benefit derived from purchasing an official certified pre-owned vehicle from a dealer is the extended warranty that the car or truck comes with. I highly doubt that a Carfax certified vehicle comes with any sort of extended warranty.

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sselfe

In the past six weeks I've been involved in the purchase of two "certified" vehicles. One is a Lexus and the other a Toyota. They were purchased at unrelated dealerships about a mile apart.

Neither car had received any "100+ point" evaluation, though they said they had. If you look
at the list of items that have been "checked and approved", you find many things checked that obviously weren't. Obviously they're just selling an extended warranty, with a deductible, of course. From bad rotors to broken vanity mirrors, and dents to missing accessories, it was obvious very little had been done. I'm not sure either had been driven off the lot with the problems that surfaced in the first mile! You hear things about what a good job the service guys do, but "occasionally they miss something." I've owned Toyotas for the past 24 years, but I don't think I'll buy another one.

rroyce10

...... First of all, most folks don't understand how it works ... "certification" is nothing more or nothing less than a warranty (that you pay for) and the evaluation usually consists of a ride around the block to check for sounds or potential problems, an oil and filter change, a nice detail and off it goes ... most dealers don't spend big money on trying to make it certified, they will depend on the warranty "if" you have a problem for that ..............

                              Terry.

rroyce10

...... If you pay the extra $25(?) they will guarantee the vehicles history .. it has nothing to do with service, maintenance, warranties, chirping birds or a free trip to Disneyworld .........

                               Terry.

isellhondas

I suppose some stores do it that way but I know we don't. Honda is very picky about their Certified cars. For example, if the perfectly good battery is three years old we have to replace it. My next door neighbor has the original battery in the 1996 Accord I sold them.

If the brake pads are more than half worn out they get replaced even though a person who drives like I do could get another 25,000 miles out of them. We fix the dents and scratches, replace floor mats, make sure there is an owner's manual etc.

A lot of this is overkill in my opinion. I assumed all stores did the same. Perhaps not?

sselfe

I agree, Terry. The problem I have with that is that they pretend it's something more. They have no qualms about giving you two pages of false documentation describing all the things that they've done/checked!

patricia1

I WANT TO BUY CHEVY CAVALIER. IT IS A BLACK 2 DOOR IN GREAT CONDITION. CD PLAYER, AIR, 2 FRONT TIRES ARE NEW AND JUST HAD ITS OIL CHANGED FOR ABOUT 1800. THE ONLY PROBLEM IS THAT IT HAS TOO MANY MILES:112,000. IS THIS CAR WORTH IT. I THINK SO BUT I HOPE I DONT MAKE A BAD DECISION BY BUYING IT. HOW LONG WOULD IT LAST. PLEASE GIVE ME YOUR OPINION FAST...EVEN FASTER AT HOLLYWUD01@CS.COM

Kirstie_H

Hi patricia1,
A couple of tips to help you get your question answered here:
1. Turn off the CAPS LOCK - that's the message board equivalent of shouting at someone, and it's hard to read.
2. Post this question in Real-World Trade-In Values to see if this is a reasonable deal.
3. Don't ask for replies via e-mail - our format exists so that everyone can benefit from the information. Asking for info via e-mail deprives us of that opportunity, AND, posting your e-mail address on a public message board will expose you to even more spam.

Just click on my link and post all of the information on your vehicle.

gkbenji

The salesman was just a kid, and I figured I'd chalk it up to his inexperience. I was willing to give the dealership the benefit of a doubt and not let one poor salesman reflect on them. After a bit more research I'm not so sure.... The weaseling is even worse than I had thought.

For example, I found out that Saab CPO requires at least 6/32" min tread on tires. The rubber it has now doesn't pass muster, yet they're trying to tell me it's CPO. Or rather "it's passed inspection, but we haven't certified it yet" when it's listed on the SaabUSA site in their CPO car listings. Danger, Will Robinson!

I feel sorry for the customer who doesn't have access to this kind of information, but even worse for the good dealerships that get tarred with the same brush as these guys. It's sad that there are enough of these guys to tarnish the entire industry.

I did ask around and their service department didn't get any poor reviews, which is good because they're the only dealer at all convenient, so if I buy a car elsewhere with warantee left I'll likely be taking it there for service anyway, like it or not.

gkbenji

Got the scoop from a Saab dealer on another bboard... apparently no Saab is actually "certified" until it's sold and reported to Saab as such. Everything is pretty much open to negotiation until then. How convenient. :-)

bluedevils

I like Saab vehicles, but that's a total B.S. way of doing a CPO program.

driftracer

A dealer can advertise a vehicle in any manner they want, but a "certified" vehicle isn't certified until the dealer notifies the manufacturer that it's sold and the "certification" and accompanying warranties go into effect.

Why get so upset over a mere reporting issue? A dealer can sell a vehicle as a certified unit or not - what's the beef over?

gkbenji

I have no beef, *now that I understand* how it works. If I have that knowledge, I know how to go in to the negotiation process. But unscrupulous dealers (and even scrupulous ones, to an extent) use the customer's lack of knowlege to their advantage, right?