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Got a Quick Question for a Car Dealer?

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Comments

  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,702
    You are spot on.

    There are some cars that will "break the bank".

    A couple of years ago, we took in a 1993 EX Accord that was "still in the wrapper". It had, I think, 24,000 miles on it and it was as perfect as a car can get.

    The customer knew what he had and he demanded way over book for it which we gladly paid him.

    Because of age, we replaced the timing belt, water pump, seals etc. When we were done, we were in it over RETAIL book.

    Now, a customer using the various books would have never bought it but it sold quickly to a person who realized exactly what it was. He plans to drive it into the ground. He loves that body style as do many others.
  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,110
    If we all agreed on everything life would be pretty boring.

    I don't think comparing cars with refrigerators is valid. When I buy a refrigerator I'm buying it for the life of the product and will not trade it in or obtain any other compensation for it at the end of its life. When I buy a car I expect it to have some value down the road when I sell it. The minute I drive that car off the lot its value drops by at least the difference between what you paid for it and the price I just paid. I have a vested interest in knowing what that figure might be and it becomes an integral part of how I value that car.

    And, Shifty, it may not be a complete picture but it is certainly relevant. (See above.)

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,702
    I have no problem with anyone who disagrees with me.

    I think it's just wonderful that people have no idea what we paid for a particular used car! Some are even brazen enough to ASK!

    And...are you saying my old refrigerator had no value?? :P
  • exb0exb0 Posts: 539
    i am pretty sure it was on one of these forums, someone posted a link to their cu, which has a link to the 'black book'.

    here is the link
  • mattandimattandi Posts: 588
    This is a case study in all the mess playing out all around. "Let's borrow our way out." :sick:

    Boyfriend/girlfriend situation. We start off less than solid.
    An ex-hubby who ain't all that much of an ex. There's still a house in the mix about to be foreclosed. Not looking much better.
    Buried in debt on 2 cars. $1300 a month outlay. whew
    Considering a Rougue, A3, or WRX. ummm, how about lowering the expectations a little.
    There is some positive cash flow. They are making extra payments. That's a positive, but I'm guessing there is no available pool of cash otherwise available.

    Sell the Supra. Get whatever it will bring.
    Use the proceeds to cover at least some of the negative on one of the other 2 cars. Borrow the difference from a relative, and then sell that car. My vote goes to the Audi. That girl needs to get out from under that. (she needs some serious financial counseling, maybe short sell the house, cut losses and start over) My guess is they will choose to dump the Malibu however.
    Plow everything extra into paying off the remaining car. The Malibu could be paid off in less than a year. Piling on the miles, it won't be worth much, but it sure beats paying interest on cars you don't even own anymore.
    Move on. Done right, his credit could be top tier by then, and hers could even show improvement.
    Buy a decent used, reliable car. Start saving the balance then available in the monthly budget.
    If the relationship survives, get married.
  • mattandimattandi Posts: 588
    And...are you saying my old refrigerator had no value??

    That depends. Does it come stocked with cold beer?
  • volvomaxvolvomax Posts: 5,274
    Yes, the item for sale either is a good value to the buyer or not but knowing what the dealer paid will help to determine the true value. If I see that you're selling it for twice what you paid I'm definitely going to reassess my valuation of the car.

    There is no one single "true" value. You have a wholesale value and a retail value.
    If I am lucky enough to trade for a car for less that I should, I am under no obligation to sell it for less than I should.
    If I overpay for the car, will you pay me more because of it?
    Of course not.

    My profit margin is nobody's business.
    Would you like everyone to know what you make?
    Of course not.
    Why? First of all, it's nobody's business. Second, people will treat you differently.
    I WISH you had to deal with what we have to deal with. You'd change your tune in a hurry.
  • greanpea68greanpea68 Posts: 1,996
    Why? Just because you declare it to be so? What the merchant pays still looks to me to me to be one more thread in the fabric of the market and customers can use all the information they can get.

    It doesn't matter what a dealer paid for a vehicle. All that matters is what the market call for a vehicle. Knowing exactlt what a dealer pays doesn't matter. With all respect and yes this started many moons ago. Web sites like Edmunds, KBB, and the rest of them make a living on providing information to the public on car buying..... The reason that started was because years ago car dealers "were taking " advantage of people..... Well now I almost want to say that these so called information sites are exploiting the car business.... These sites are makong money off dealerships by providing information. So now the tables are turned in favor of the public.... I am all for treating people right and building relationships.... I need that for my business to grow and "profit"..... But if every one wanted to pay what we owned the vehicles for how could a dealer ever make profit?

    Tidster or really anyone this isn't directed at Tid, just replying to a post.... When you go to the grocery store, the best buy, the hom depot, the sears???? Do you know what they pay for materials, shipping, labor? I don't. I look at the label and decide is I can afford it...

    OK Rant over

    GP
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 28,747
    ...then why do dealers say: "I've got more than that into it.. I can't take a loss."

    It's either about market value, or it's not..

    Most dealers are just like customers... What they pay for something, or what they owe on it, has an effect on the perceived value of that object..

    In fact, dealers are just like customers.. If it's the other guy's $100, then it's only a lousy $100... why won't they give it to me.. If it's your $100, then it means everything in the world...

    Oh yeah... Used refrigerators aren't worth diddly... :)

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • duke23duke23 Posts: 488
    GP wrote :
    "It doesn't matter what a dealer paid for a vehicle. All that matters is what the market call for a vehicle. " That is irrefutable . Demand determines the price. Earlier this year some buyers were paying over msrp for the Genesis.
    While in general Chrysler products could be had for a song .Not knowing too much about music, I'd venture not even a very good song.
    While not disagreeing with Mr. T's premise per se, I'd add that even with KBB, TMV or any pricing engine, the pockets of profit at a dealership are so convoluted and inside, you'll never know what true cost is to a dealership, Unless you beat the GM with a rubber hose under a bare lightbulb. Even then chances are 50:50. Dont try, educate your self as much as possible and strike your best deal. Keep in mind salesmen have families too, try to stick it to the dealership when ever possible.
  • I am considering a new car purchase and know that the car I am interested in has been on the lot since May. It has been exposed to a long hot summer. Is this a long time for a new car? Should I be concerned about potential problems with a new vehicle that has been sitting around for that long? I've heard stories about tires becoming out of round after sitting for too long? What about new seals, gaskets etc.? I know that most cars are exposed all day long to the hot sun but these are also driven frequently.
  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,110
    I think it's just wonderful that people have no idea what we paid for a particular used car!

    I think that sums it up pretty well. I would find the information useful and you are not willing to part with it so it's ultimately an impasse. In the end, necessity on your part and mine will eventually produce an exchange.

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • chuck1chuck1 Posts: 1,405
    If you believe this website it was good for the dealers too-

    http://www.phs-online.com/window%20sticker%20information.htm

    No offense to any of the sales people on this board-but I can't even begin to imagine what games SOME DEALERS would play without even the window sticker as a guide.
  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Posts: 6,495
    "...2. They put me in the correct $5000 = or - grouping..."

    Yikes. What kind of fancy cars are you buying? For me, that range would be the total cost of the car.

    I'd like to get an idea of price within a few hundred rather than a few thousand. That's why the huge differences between books is so annoying.

    2009 PT Cruiser, 2008 Eclipse, 1995 Mark VIII, 1988 GMC Van

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Posts: 6,495
    "...Should I be concerned about potential problems with a new vehicle that has been sitting around for that long?..."

    I don't think so. I bought a new car in January that was built the previous May. It sat SOMEWHERE all that time and was fine.

    How many miles on the car? I would rather have one that had been sitting for months than one a bunch of yahoos had been "test driving". Not to mention the unspeakable acts that might have been committed by salespeople. ;)

    2009 PT Cruiser, 2008 Eclipse, 1995 Mark VIII, 1988 GMC Van

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,902
    Price guides are simply not that accurate to get you within a few hundred dollars. There are too many variables, and for cars at the $5,000 mark, practically useless IMO. Why? Because the newer the car, the more accurate the books, since points of sale are abundant. Nobody is tracking 1990 vehicles very accurately, they are only reducing them in value year by year based on a formula. Only when they get REAL old, like "classics" do people start tracking them accurately again.

    If you buy and sell strictly on a price guide for these "non-tracked cars", you're going to make a mistake.

    They are only meant to give you a "ballpark". If you gave me a make model year car that your book says is worth $5,000, I can probably show you ads for the same car at $2,500 and $7,500, and they won't be all that different from each other.

    So yes, you and I could conceivably buy the same car in similar condition with one of us paying double what the other paid, especially an older model.

    This has been my experience, at any rate.

    MODERATOR

  • greanpea68greanpea68 Posts: 1,996
    ...then why do dealers say: "I've got more than that into it.. I can't take a loss."

    Same reason already discussed. Sometimes you take a trade in and you either put to much money into it because it is cherry or when you did the works check you you had a bunch of hidden things you couldn't see on the appraisal :sick:

    At least at my dealer we perform a works check to know what it needs. Half the time after that we will wait to sell the vehicle to perform the work. If it doesn't sell we send to the mill.

    GP
  • greanpea68greanpea68 Posts: 1,996
    I am interested in has been on the lot since May. It has been exposed to a long hot summer. Is this a long time for a new car? Should I be concerned about potential problems with a new vehicle that has been sitting around for that long?

    No worries there. Tires can become "scalloped" which means they get a flat spot on the tire from sitting on it to long. I wouldn't worry about a car that has been there since May.... I have seen new vehicles sit for year and sometimes longer :sick:

    GP
  • greanpea68greanpea68 Posts: 1,996
    Maroney Label....

    Thank youfor the link.... I would like to add a few things.

    The way it was explained to me was that Senator Maroney also was a dealership owner. And after WW2 there were dealerships advertising vehicles. They would mark up the vehicles for twice the amount they were worth. In the add they would reduce the price and still have hefty profit.

    Mr. Maroney felt that it was ubfair to his business and also unfair to the public. That was the reasoning behind the Maroney label.

    GP
  • fandiguyfandiguy Posts: 101
    Agreed. I've seen more than a few cars celebrate "birthdays" while on the lot!! From a consumer standpoint, you can use the "aged unit" thing to your advantage. Whenever someone would show interest in a vehicle that's been on the lot close to a year, the sales managers would usually do anything to strike a deal with the buyer!

    Although, how desireable is the car if its been sitting for that long?
  • ghautoghauto Posts: 5
    Just because there is a "value" does not mean that there is a person ready to pay that value. Month in and month out dealers are consistantly losing money on pre-owned vehicles that they are not able to find buyers for.
    Dealers and their customers are no different, the customers are trying to save (or make) only and the dealers are doing the same, although the dealers are generally the ones assuming 100% of the risk. How often do you hear dealers complaining about being ripped off by a customer who did not disclose that his/her vehicle had been wrecked or had a bad title? It is ok for dealers to make money, unfortunately some of them just go about it the wrong way.
  • mattandimattandi Posts: 588
    . . .what a dealer has in a car. That is his concern, not mine. I am only concerned with figuring out what I may be willing to pay for a car.

    Knowing what similar cars a going over the block for is helpful. It establishes something of a bottom dollar range. I figure that is the least the dealer may expect if he can not sell the car otherwise. I figure if my offer is sufficiently above that range, it is reasonable that I expect that what I am willing to pay is possibly acceptable to the dealer. It is not my problem if that means the dealer loses on the deal or makes a little.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,902
    If you REALLY want to know the value of a used car, as a consumer you have to perform at least the following, for anything approaching accuracy.

    1. Determine the actual condition of the vehicle--average, clean, very clean, exceptional

    2. Consult at LEAST 3 online price guides (easy to find 3)

    3. Do an advanced search on autotrader and plug in miles and geography and various inclusions/exclusions, so that your comps are equal cars. Do a nationwide search, then look at the bottom for the "average price" of your searches. If you got 100 hits, that average price is going to be a pretty good benchmark.

    4. Compare the benchmark average price with your price guides, again paying particular attention to condition and options. If your benchmark comparable pricing is way lower than the average of your 3 price guides for a "clean" car let's say, then the price guides are wrong and need adjustment on that make/model***

    ***This doesn't happen often but it does happen. For instance, price guides didn't have time to adjust to the $4 gas prices.

    THEN yes, you can hit it within $500---$1,000 I think.

    MODERATOR

  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,110
    How often do you hear dealers complaining about being ripped off by a customer who did not disclose that his/her vehicle had been wrecked or had a bad title?

    I suppose one could argue that whether the vehicle had been wrecked or not is none of the dealer's business and he either sees value in the vehicle or he does not. ;)

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,702
    Exactly why we pull a history report on every trade before we put a number on it.

    Even without a history report (which aren't foolproof) a good appraiser can almost always spot prior damage.

    And, yes, we do see value in previously wrecked cars. It's called diminished value!

    If the damage wasn't severe, we will carefully inspect these cars and resell them. We disclose to the buyer that there was an accident reported. This scares some away and others don't care.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Posts: 5,274
    Sen. Monroney wasn't that big a friend of the consumer.
    He made sure that full size trucks over 3/4 ton were exempt from the legislation.
    I think he had an interest in a truck dealer.
    Anyway, it wasn't until a few yrs ago that those trucks had to conform.
    Even today, those big trucks don't post EPA mileage on the sticker.
  • mv08mv08 Posts: 5
    Last month the rebates in Tri state were $3k cash and $2K Fiance for a total of $5k, we took the gamble they would increase for october and now it looks like Chrysler's website actually shows a $500 decrease ($4,500 cash, no finance)?

    Do you think they will increase over the Columbus day weekend, or the second half of the month? ???? Don't see how Chrysler would increase prices when the vans are not moving off the lots...
  • greanpea68greanpea68 Posts: 1,996
    Do you think they will increase over the Columbus day weekend, or the second half of the month? ???? Don't see how Chrysler would increase prices when the vans are not moving off the lots...


    No.... Manufacturers put their incentives out at the begining of the month. Chrysler probably sold enough units last mont where they don't need to have as much of a incentive :sick:

    GP
  • volvomaxvolvomax Posts: 5,274
    No.... Manufacturers put their incentives out at the begining of the month. Chrysler probably sold enough units last mont where they don't need to have as much of a incentive

    I don't think its an issue of having sold enough cars.
    Volvo's incentives went down as well.
    We are coming to the end of the year, the motor co's are out of cash and they realize that they just can't buy enough business to make it worthwhile.
  • corvettecorvette United StatesPosts: 4,120
    We are coming to the end of the year, the motor co's are out of cash and they realize that they just can't buy enough business to make it worthwhile.

    Bingo. I posted about this in the thread about the credit crunch... They're all going to miss their numbers for the year of 2008--some more so than others. Subsidized leases are dead, and I don't see any true bargains on the purchase incentives. The manufacturers can only incentivize so much, and it looks like they've reached the breaking point. I mean, you can put a $15,000 incentive on a $20,000 car, but you'll be taking a huge loss in order to prop up your sales figures.
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