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Buying a Car During the Credit Crunch



  • mikefm58mikefm58 Posts: 2,882
    I agree this is becoming a can of worms and I also agree that customers do lie. How many? I have no idea as I've never been on that side of the process. But I'd be willing to bet there are a fair number out there.

    And I will also repeat myself that sales persons who lie are in greater numbers than what you've posted and that is based on my own personal experience here in central Florida.

    So I'll end my part of this discussion by saying that customers and sales persons who lie deserve each other.
  • duke23duke23 Posts: 488
    jipster wrote:
    "The way your posts are structured does make them difficult to read duke. I suggest putting whoever you are quoting in italic text, located just above the emotorcons. Then separate your quoted italic text and what your reply is by starting a new paragraph. Then the rest is grammar 101, paragraphs, periods, commas, complete sentences.
    Fair criticism and accepted.
    jip it's emoticons, not that I'm a stickler.

    Now on , to thy who lacks recognition of specious assertations.So how does $100 oil make sense? LOLOL . Pretty fair grammar. And the reply is? Note: this actually requires a reply and not a deflection kdhspyder. Said again most kindly, but inquiring minds want to know.
    j: Crap, keep up with the program willya, ok I'll slow it down. jip it's emoticons but I was able to understand your point. Hell maybe they do call them emotorcons in this forum. That would be stretching correct grammar for the sake of relevance but I still get the point. Accept must I; Yodaism :)
  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,109
    it's emoticons, not that I'm a stickler.
    Hell maybe they do call them emotorcons in this forum. That would be stretching correct grammar for the sake of relevance but I still get the point.

    Wrong. It IS Emotorcons so the grammar is correct and unstretched. The SM you see attached to "Emotorcons" in the link below stands for Service Mark which means that it is a pending trademark. The jipster is quite correct in his usage of the term. :shades:

    In any case, I'm not sure I see the relevance to buying a car during the credit crunch of grammar and whatever it was that you are attempting to say in your message. Not that I am a stickler but ... :P

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • joel0622joel0622 Posts: 3,302
    For anyone interested you can go back and read this same conversation rehashed about every 100 pages of this thread. :D

    In the normal wold it is called a lie. For some reason in the confines of a car dealership it is called negotiations.

    I guess I "lie" to customers every day if you really want to split hairs.

    Customer: Whats the best rate you can get me?

    Me: I don't know till I submit the deal to the bank

    Now technically I know what the best rate is if he meets all the parameters so I guess I just lied.

    Customer: Whats the lowest price you will sell me a service contract for?

    Me: I don't know sir, come on in my office and lets talk about about it.

    Another lie, I know what the cheapest service contract we have is but before I price him one I want to ask him about his driving habits and what he wants covered and then price the VSC to him with profit on it.

    So I guess from that perspective I am going for a trip down the river Styx when my time comes :D
  • mikefm58mikefm58 Posts: 2,882
    From my perspective, no lies were told in the sample conversation you gave, you really don't know what rate the guy can qualify until he fills out the application.
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Posts: 1,207
    Now technically I know what the best rate is if he meets all the parameters so I guess I just lied.

    That's not lying. You may know the answer if all the parameters are met but there is no mileage in saying you'll qualify for x% and then finding out that one of the parameters is not met and that the interest rate will be y%. Your answer is really the short version to save time and is not to deliberately mislead. I would find that acceptable.
  • dtownfbdtownfb Posts: 2,915
    mikefm58: you are right that everything joel stated above is not a lie and he did a good job of not giving the customer potentially bad information until he finds out more. Unfortunately whether someone is lying or not depends on one's perspective as you stated. And yes, customers lie as well.

    I think we all can agree that the current system to buying a car is confrontational and we all wish there was a way to setup a no-haggle system where the dealer gets a fair profit and we can shop dealers based on customer service. We all know it's not going to happen as long as we have as many car dealerships that we have and they are owned by individuals rather than the manufacturer.

    For a big purchase like this, the customer needs to do their homework before starting negotiations. there are too many websites, books and articles out there on car buying and the negotiation process for someone to claim ignorance. Unfortunately, people don't understand if the salesman is being deceptive or unclear in his answers, ask for another salesman or simply walk out. Trust me, that is a very powerful tool because that salesman will have to explain to his manager why a potential buyer suddenly left the dealership.

    I did this when we purchased our 1994 Accord. I wanted to see clearly on a piece of paper how much they were giving me for my trade (1989 Ford Tempo, yeah I was pushing it) and how much was the price of the car. the salesman kept combining the trade with the discount. I gave him one last chance. He did it again. I stood up, told my wife we are leaving, and walked out of the dealership. Shocked my wife! The salesman called the next morning at 9:15 am and apologized. We finished the negotiations later that day the way I wanted, negotiating the trade separate from the purchase of the car. I'm sure they made a profit on the deal but I was happy with the price and the trade., so win-win. They even beat the financing I secured at my credit union.

    For some reason, when we get in car dealerships, people forget that it is their money and they have the power. If you don't understand the contract, don't sign it. Nothing wrong with asking to sleep on it and then asking a friend to explain it to you.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,924
    we're pretty far off-course related to the discussion title.

    Need help navigating? - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • duke23duke23 Posts: 488
    Tidester wrote :
    "In any case, I'm not sure I see the relevance to buying a car during the credit crunch of grammar and whatever it was that you are attempting to say in your message. Not that I am a stickler but "
    My apologies sir, But I judge your post out of line. Way out of line.
    Please defend the sentence structure below :link title
    There is of course no credit crunch of grammar nor is there a credit crunch of mean spiritedness. There is only a credit crunch. If you indeed require an explanation of "what I was attempting to say in my message " I will comply in the most simplistic terms available with stick figures and arrows to indicate motion.
    Note :humor. Sidenote: K speaks great wisdom but sadly some ego's seem to have gotten in the way.
    Apologies gladly accepted. It should never go one way. Waiting...
  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,109
    Please defend the sentence structure below...

    Try a private email to richard64 for enlightenment on sentence structure. We're sticking to credit crunch issues here. :)

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • duke23duke23 Posts: 488
    Private email to you. Credit Crunch issues agreed. I'll let richard diagram ours. Pi on some faces. We all use ... but some more than others. Now on to relevant topic:
    October auto sales may have hit two-decade lowOctober 31, 2008 7:22 PM ET All Thomson Reuters newsDETROIT (Reuters) - U.S. auto sales are expected to plunge to the lowest levels of the year in October and possibly the slowest running rate in two decades, with no certainty of when consumer confidence will return.

    The U.S. automakers, struggling to preserve their shrinking pools of cash as they fight for survival, are poised to post sales declines of up to 40 percent, with the overall market sagging potentially to levels not seen since the 1980s, when the United States had 60 million fewer residents.

    General Motors Corp, Ford Motor Co and Chrysler LLC are expected to lead the U.S. sales declines, but all six of the top sellers -- including Toyota Motor Corp, Honda Motor Co Ltd and Nissan Motor Co Ltd -- were expected to report lower sales.

    High gas prices blunted U.S. auto sales earlier in 2008, but the plunge in consumer confidence -- which hit the lowest level in the four decades as the Conference Board measured it -- has pushed out expectations for a recovery beyond next year.

    U.S. October auto sales were "pretty much as advertised," Ford chief sales analyst George Pipas said on Friday, adding that the seasonally adjusted annual rate would likely be around 11 million to 12 million vehicles in October.

    But Ford executives hope that government response to the credit crisis would improve the overall retail atmosphere.

    "There is a lot of action being taken by the Federal government, by the Federal Reserve, and by the Congress and we are hopeful that will stimulate demand," said Mark Fields, Ford's president of the Americas.

    In a bright spot, Ford is confident its retail share of the U.S. auto market in October will rise to the highest in two years.

    Barclays Capital analyst Brian Johnson expects a 39 percent drop in sales for the Detroit-based automakers in October, which was marked by low consumer confidence and "particularly poor showroom traffic."

    "We believe that the pressure on auto sales from limited credit availability is mounting," Johnson said, adding it appeared dealers were facing a 10 percent to 15 percent headwind from the tighter lending practices.


    Overall, U.S. light vehicle sales were expected to be in a range of 11 million to 11.3 million vehicles, according to analysts and industry executives -- a sharp decline from 16.04 million last October and 12.5 million last month.

    Overshadowing the U.S. sales figures, key early indicators that economists use to gauge consumer spending and the broad health of the U.S. economy, are the merger talks between GM and Chrysler parent Cerberus Capital Management, which could result in the sale of all or part of Chrysler to GM.

    Automakers pushed in October to tell customers that financing was still available despite the credit market turmoil and, in some cases, put thousands of dollars on the hood of slower-selling models to try to clinch the sale.

    Toyota, which led GM in the third quarter as the world's largest automaker by sales volume, offered zero percent financing across 11 models in an effort to boost demand. Toyota's U.S. sales were down 10 percent through September.

    Nissan said on Friday it was offering interest free loans on five popular models, including Altima and Sentra sedans.

    Nissan expects a boost in sales in November and December from the loan incentive, which runs through January 5.

    Some dealers have said consumers were having a tough time closing new car deals because many lenders tightened their standards or had completely pulled out of the auto loans market.

    GMAC, earlier this month, announced it would offer auto loans only to consumers who have high credit scores, a decision that is expected to hurt GM's sales further.

    On an unadjusted basis, expects GM sales to drop 40.7 percent, Chrysler to drop 38.1 percent and Ford to drop 34.7 percent. It expects a 29.2 percent drop at Nissan, a 17.2 percent slide at Honda and a 15.5 percent fall at Toyota.

    "Looking ahead, November is traditionally one of the worst sales months of the year and December is usually one of the best," executive director of industry analysis Jesse Toprak said.

    "If the election and other variables don't have a significant impact on auto sales through December, we are looking at an annual total of about 13.6 million units."

    Looks like a take no prisoners market ahead. No brand name exempt. Hang tough salesmen.
    We'll endure.
  • joel0622joel0622 Posts: 3,302
    Looking ahead, November is traditionally one of the worst sales months of the year and December is usually one of the best," executive director of industry analysis Jesse Toprak said.

    Traditionally December is our 6th best sales month of the year. That statement used to be true for us years ago before allot of tax laws changed. Nowadays there are just to many distractions in December with the Holidays.
  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Posts: 6,868
    "...So let's not pretend that dealers are always the problem..."

    No, of course not. After all, buyers are liars, right? I would assume that to an experienced salesperson buyer's lies would be easier to see through since the salesperson does this every day.

    I would say that most of the examples you give would either be easy to detect or honest errors( I just read a poster who only found out his car had been in an accident when he went to trade it).

    Saying that another dealer will beat your deal might be a bit tacky but falls within the give and take of the buying process.

    "...most instances where a customer believes the dealer is lying is due to the ignorance of the customer..."

    I don't doubt it. If I'm talking to a salesman and what he's saying doesn't jive with what I think is true, I'll pause the transaction until I can verify the information. Sometimes I'm wrong...sometimes the salesman is stretching the truth.

    In the end it is the salesman job to create a positive impression of his product. This is the classic "create value" role. If he tells me that "all the girls will fall in your lap" if I buy this car I'm OK with that. If he tells me that "the grinding noise in the transmission is normal for this model" that's not OK. :cry:

    The difference is the degree. :lemon:

    2009 PT Cruiser, 2008 Eclipse, 1995 Mark VIII, 1988 GMC Van

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Posts: 6,868
    "...Case in point..."

    If I was selling anything to that guy, the only thing he would be riding would be the bottom of my boot. :mad:

    2009 PT Cruiser, 2008 Eclipse, 1995 Mark VIII, 1988 GMC Van

  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,238
    So what was the outcome of that transaction? I hope they didn't still get $2500 for their trade! Or did the deal just completely fall through?
  • dfz1dfz1 Posts: 6
    In September I made my Mazda 5 lease payment. The company mis-posted the amount and processed the check for $90.00 less than what it should have been. I made my October payment.

    In the last 24 hours I have received four phone calls from very rude individuals who each have given me a different story as to why I was late $90.00. I responded to the first call prior to researching the issue and stated I would send the amount immediately. I was then called three more times after that and was told they did not have an automated system to record the first calls.

    I asked to speak to a supervisor and was given the name of an individual who does not even exist in the company. I was given a fax number and faxed a copy of the check to that number. When I went to call the person I had faxed it too I was told he did not exist in the company. Eventually after four more calls I found that in fact the fax was received and the issue was being researched.

    Conclusion undoubtedly the most rude, arrogant and dishonest company I have ever done business with. I personally would not buy any product from Ford Motor company in the future including Ford, Volvo, Jaguar, Lincoln etc. If you do I would strongly recommend not financing through either Ford credit or Mazda.

    While the financial future of this company in tenuous they have decided to abuse the customer probably as a strategy to maintain a dwindling cash flow. I also will not do business with the dealer Scott Mazda in Allentown PA.

    I have filed a report with the FTC re the harassment by Ford Motor Company by telephone. The number of calls especially given the amount was excessive. The manner of the call agents varies from passive aggressive to out right hostel. These are cruel nasty people. They seem to find pleasure in harassing their consumers.
  • fezofezo Posts: 9,520
    Thanks for sharing that. It tells me that Ford customer service has not improved in the last 9 years.

    I never had a finance issue but dealt with them on mechanical issues (the famous head gasket on the 3.8, melting transmissions and such). They not only did not do anything but were abusive as all get out.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    They took the trade out of the deal and sold the vehicle to CarMax for $1500-ish I believe. I had to switch them to another lender because the first app that went in had a bogus income on it. Lenders are becoming sticklers for apps and stips that don't jive.
  • joel0622joel0622 Posts: 3,302
    Lenders are becoming sticklers for apps and stips that don't jive.

    Ya that whole giving correct information is a real [non-permissible content removed] some times. :D
  • fezofezo Posts: 9,520
    Correct information? Picky. Picky. Picky....
  • mikefm58mikefm58 Posts: 2,882
    Lenders are becoming sticklers for apps and stips that don't jive.

    That might happen for an auto loan, but never for something significant like a mortgage. Wouldn't THAT be stupid! :) :) :)
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 10,009
    good for 40k from fmcc through the end of the year.
    she wants an escape hybrid and there aren't any of those to be found around here.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,695
    One thing you don't ever want to do is cross Mazda Financial. They are without a doubt the meanest, most awful SOBs in the car financing biz today.

    And I see from your story that they even treat people who have done nothing wrong that way. I have had a few friends who won't make the mistake twice of financing a vehicle through Mazda. It is sort of like the Discover Card of the auto finance world. :sick:

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 10,009
    not really, more like the "what's in your wallet cards'.
  • I purchased a new Infiniti in June with .09% interest rate for 5 years. I was worried that I should have waited for better prices, but it sounds like I would never have gotten that rate ... do you think that is the case? Laura
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,695
    Well, I think in the next 9 months we will see the automakers literally BEGGING us to buy a car, so great rates will be available for anybody with good credit who is buying from an automaker with the same. (not the domestics, in other words).

    So yes, you probably could have got a great rate later. But price? With dealers hunkering down and expecting much lower volume, I think the response will more often than not to be to shoot for more profit margin on each individual sale than when times were flush.

    PS Anyone know what happened to the 25 posts that just seem to be missing from this thread??

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • I'll browse the thread after posting this reply to message #1.
    I came to this forum after reading a comment from GM in which an executive said that sales were unsustainably low.
    I would like to point out to GM that 50 years ago GM calculated a 3-year replacement cycle for every car they sold. They were right. Unfortunately, GM pushed quality down to match the cycle. It was easy for resurgent foreign competitors to lure customers away with reliable cars even if they cost more than GM's offerings. GM responded by drawing quality up to levels to match foreign competition. In another unfortunately unexpected outcome, GM's capital structure depends on the same old 3-year replacement cycle. The replacement cycle is now closer to 6 years, and GM is starved for new cash.

    The good news is that GM quality is now competitive with everyone in the world and GM will survive this market retrenchment.

    I purchased a new Chevrolet Malibu in each of 2003 and 2004. I also purchased a new Dodge Intrepid in 2004, and a used Ford Focus in 2004. All four of these vehicles are running well and are quite dependable. Looking forward, I have no intention of purchasing another car that runs on internal combustion of fossil fuels alone. The first and second generation of hybrid vehicles are interesting. I'd buy a Ford Escape Hybrid if I just had to get new wheels. Lacking an emergent need, I will wait until the 3rd generation of hybrid cars such as the Aptera Type-1h and the Chevrolet Volt become available before making another purchase.
  • duke23duke23 Posts: 488
    jeromeb wrote ;
    "GM's capital structure depends on the same old 3-year replacement cycle. The replacement cycle is now closer to 6 years, and GM is starved for new cash."
    Though with $20 billion in cash, at $2 billion a month that means 10 months at current rates.
    They need help obviously. Yes we can ! They survive but have doubts about Chrysler
    ( Cerebus) Merge with Renault ? Oh the shame.
  • fezofezo Posts: 9,520
    Gee, maybe with the new administration coming in we'll get a tax credit for regular old made in USA cars instead of just loaning (giving) the automakers a load of cash directly.

    Just a thought...
  • joel0622joel0622 Posts: 3,302
    I would just like to see it revert to the old tax law where you could deduct interest paid on an auto loan.
This discussion has been closed.