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VW Golf vs Honda Civic

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  • only1harryonly1harry Posts: 1,136
    what is your point? I 've raced 1 Honda, 2 Acuras. What about you?
    I 'm not arguing that VW are not good auto-xers. They 're good with some mods but stock they 're not that great.
  • kurtb1kurtb1 Posts: 6
    What a site. I'm cracking up at the exchanges here. Why are you guys comparing these two vehicles? Apples and oranges are both fruit but it depends on what you're in the mood for. Same with Hondas and VWs. There's nothing wrong with either one.

    I have a recently purchased Golf GLS 1.8t and it's great. Hondas are cool but the Golf has a more "beefy" feel to it and I like that. It's heavier than the Civic (I think) but that's alright by me. People complain that the Golf has gotten bigger and heavier over the years but I think the size difference is an improvement.

    Looking at Civics a few years back I was nearly sold on the sporty version (don't remember the model designation) but my heart sank when they told me it only comes with a sunroof. I'm too tall for those things. VW gives you the option of a larger engine and no sunroof with I appreciate. They also allow seat height adjustment which as I recall the Honda didn't have.

    It all comes down to what you want and is it available.
  • mznmzn Posts: 727
    In my experience, Hondas and VWs attract different drivers. You want fun-to-drive? Buy the Golf. You want bulletproof? Buy the Civic.

    carlady/host
  • qwordqword Posts: 20
    I sorta agree with you I guess....I guess I'm one of those lucky ones whom hasn't had many problems with his VW's. My 87 Scriocco was the best. Very reliable and very fun to drive. Went to basic training and had to let her go. What a cruel world. My next car when I retuned home was a 1994 silver Golf GL that was later modified slightly. I did have problems with that car due to it being a salvaged title without me knowing it at the time it was bought. The problems were pretty minor though. Then the first time I saw the y2k Golf it was love at first sight. But, to make it a fare comparison I test drove a few other cars in it's class to compare. Needless to say I ended up with a Golf GLS TDI, because in my opinion it offered the best total package for the money. I've already thrown on an ITG cool air intake on the car and it has made a BIG difference.
  • zorglubzorglub Posts: 79
    I have a 95 Golf GL and a 92 Civic DX H/B. Well, my Civic has over 120K miles, and we never repaired anything except for regular maintenance. On the other hand, my Golf has 63K miles, and I just got the mechanic bill:
    - engine fan gone (bearing actually, but you must replace everything) $400
    - driver door lock gone: $150
    - ignition lock about to go out: $450 (cause they have to remove the airbag)
    - rear door moulding came unglued $80
    Add the normal maintenance and timing belt, and you get a hefty bill.
    My point, and that's only mine :-), is that while I like the car (actually always wanted one back in Europe), I don't like the poor reliability. So as soon as I can, I'll sell it and get a Civic instead. It's not as fun, but it lasts longer. I can't afford to just go for looks anymore. By the way, according to the mechanic, the problems that I have are apparently frequent, so it's not just me.

    Happy driving to all.
  • I know more about Honda's (and Acura's) then you do. I also know more about VW's then you do. Have owned 2 VW's, 5 Honda's, and 4 Acura's. I own a '84 GTI FSP-car and drive a '97 GSR DSP-car for an autox team.

    I agree with kurtb1, VW's and Honda's are Apples and Oranges. The Civic HB is very small. It would be better to compare a Civic HB to Focus ZX3. (I have not driven a new Focus ZX3, but from what I have heard they are a great cars. It is basically a Mazda, so quality should not be to bad. I'm still not sold on the styling or resale value yet.) I like that the VW comes in a 4-door version. Nobody else makes anything like it under 20k. The motor is a little under powered for a car of its size, but the motor puts out great power between 2500rpm and 4500rpm. I'm sure if we look at a dyno compared a to a Civic we would find that the 2.0L 8 valve in the VW produces more power in this area. Remember the Civic doesn't put a VTEC in the HB. (at least not since the '95 Si) Honda only puts a 106hp motor in the car. Which is made at a useless 6200rpm.

    Your GSR is a nice car, but an ACR will crush it on a track. How do you like them apples? An ACR will also crush a Civic Si. I'm sure an ACR would crush a VW 1.8T too. So why is it that Honda doesn't make a car that will beat Dodge for under 15k? (I can here you now. Dodge doesn't make the ACR anymore. It will be back!!) Sure the Type-R is a nice car, but 26k for stripped down Integra. Give me a break. The truth is that the GOLF is a true Hatchback. The Integra is a fastback. Nobody makes a car like the GOLF. The things that make the Golf different are the things that people want. Good job VW. Thanks for listening to your customers.
  • only1harryonly1harry Posts: 1,136
    Because it breaks down a lot more than most cars!
    Zorglub just compared his Civic HB and VW Golf which has half the miles of the Civic.

    A stock Neon ACR will beat mostly anything out there but what's that have to do with what we 're talking about here? A good driver in a Type-R can beat a Neon ACR in SoloII auto-x, and will destroy it in Solo I on the track/road cource racing. I always liked the ACR and it was also limited production like the Type-R. But I don't understand why you bring a Neon up. I just got back from auto-xing this Sunday and I had M3s for breakfast. My GSR is also in DSP class (SCCA) because of the suspension mods and AEM CAI that I have on, but sometimes we go to BMW CCA and Porsche events. We kick major butt. Especially my brother's and friends' Type-Rs and VW VR6s (GStock) never come close to our times. Well they may have come within 2-3 sec. of us but that's it. And whoever paid $26K for a Type-R is not so bright. Most people pay sticker $24.8K My brother paid $24,300 for his '98 with A/C ('97-98 didn't come with A/C). It's not really that stripped down. All it's missing is the sunroof which I hate in my GSR because it robs me of headroom, and the leather seats, but I 'd rather have the Type-R seats which are much better than GSRs. You get a lot more for your money in the Type-R than the GSR believe it or not.
    All they did was take away a sunroof, some leather and 35lbs of sound deadening material. Big deal. Type-R seats cost more than GSR's! Look what you get compared to the GSR: Bigger/better brakes, bigger exhaust, hand built engine w/25hp more, bigger rear sway bar, bigger front strut bar, reinforcement crossbar in trunk, reinforced chassis (with metal plates at various parts of the car), heavy duty bushings & suspension components, stiffer lower springs (.6"), better shocks, reduced weight, Limited Slip Differential, ultralight alloy wheels, underbody spoiler kit (retail $1,000). You get a true sports car with world class handling & braking.
    When are you going to stop putting down everything that's not a VW? I 've always said that I like the VW 1.8T and the VR6 but for certain reasons I prefer to drive Integras and Civics.
    A GTI VR6 is $23K+. For another grand or two I 'd rather drive a Type-R that will dance circles around a VR6, stock vs stock.
    Have you seen the latest Motortrend '00 Type-R tests? 0-60 in 6.2s and 1/4 mi. in 14.8s, .92g skidpad. Although not as fast as a '99+ Mustang GT, it will outhandle it with no problems and will be much more reliable than a Ford.

    Can you explain to me how you race for an auto-x team? All the auto-xers I know don't have "teams". Once in a while a car will have 2 drivers. Is that what you mean by a team? So you don't own the '97 GSR then.
    You have owned a total of NINE Acura/Hondas and 2 VWs? Hmm. yet you like the '84 VW better.. with the bad brakes and the crappy steering? very interesting to say the least.. So since you know so much then you would know that a well modded 1,800-2,000lb CRX or older Civic is unbeatable in the CSP class.
  • I give up. Maybe someday you will realize that there is more then one-car company in the world. Honda makes a fine automobile, but there are other carmakers out there that make just as good of cars. Honda/Acura still has a lot of work to do to produce products that match the refinement and styling of the European carmakers. Honda and Toyota make very reliable cars. (The rest of the competition (excluding Dodge) is gaining ground in that department.) They just lack the refinement VW//Audi has produced. As much as I love racing around cones or road courses, I realize that there is more to a car then performance. I want it all. I want performance, styling, refinement, reliability, and value. VW is highly ranked in those 5 categories. I can't say the same thing about Honda Civic or Acura Integra. (the S2000 and Prelude are great looking cars, to bad the Prelude doesn’t come with leather standard.)

    TEAM- I own a third of the GSR with 3 co-racers. We pooled some money together and decided to buy a car. We never dreamed of getting a GSR within our price range. It is a ’97 GSR with a ton of character (dents) and 37k on it. It came with Skunkworks Coilovers, DC Sports header and Exhaust, some generic Intake, and a set of the ugliest chrome wheels. We added Koni struts, my old Skunkworks rear swaybar, and my used set of Kuhmo’s mounted on 15x7 MB6(heavy but lighter then chrome) rims. The car looks like hell, but also goes like hell. It is not nearly as popular at the track as the GTI. The GTI always amazes people with the times it posts. The courses around here are kind of between Solo I road courses and Solo II parking lot adventures. It provides a nice level playing ground for all cars. It is not to tight for the big fast cars and not to fast for the small slow cars. Both the GSR and GTI run right near the top in overall times. The GSR always edges the GTI, by about a .5 second. Not bad for a car that is listed at 90hp stock and no notable hp gaining mods. I have been to the nationals and seen how fast your 1st Gen CRX’s are. They are very fast on a small track due to their size. They are short in both height and length. They are extremely light and have a great little 12V 1.5L motor. The GTI is just to tall and long to compete with the CRX at that level. My first Honda was a ’85 CRX. I hammered on that thing and it took everything I could give it. My second Honda was a ’88 CRX Si. It was a classic compact car just like the ’84 GTI. I’m still pissed at Honda for dropping that car from production. It was one of the best cars I have ever owned. (30+ and counting.) Currently I’m driving a Nissan Sentra SE-R. It dominated the DS class until they made the bigger and heavier version in ’95 and that year the Dodge came out with the ACR. I plan on selling either the SE-R or GTI in the spring and buying a new daily car. Right now I have two in mind. Either a ‘01 Golf 4 door GLS 1.8T or a used Maxima SE (’97 or newer 5spd). I love the motors in both cars. The 3.0L V6 in the Maxima provides 1.8L VTEC type power at any rpm. The 1.8T makes 1.6L VTEC power at any RPM. Right now I’m leaning towards the Golf due to its versatility. I’m also leaning towards selling the SER since I can’t modify it without going into DSP. (I can’t run to cars in the same class.) Then again I might just run the SER in DS with a set of Kuhmo’s and see what I can do. Don’t get me wrong the Type-R is a good car. I just want more out of a daily driver. It would be nice to have one as a race car, but that is just a little to rich for my blood, plus our GSR will tear apart a Type-R on the track for about 15 thousand less. And I don’t have to worry about scratching it. :) Later.
  • rae52rae52 Posts: 99
    only1Harry, how difficult is it to change the rotor on my '99 Civic Hatch?
    The car has no A/C plumbing to interfere with servicing of the distributor.
  • It is very simple. Just remember the not to miss wire your plugs when putting the new cap on. Why do you need a new rotor on a '99 Civic?
  • lakerbuglakerbug Posts: 1
    Are 1991 Honda Civics reliable
  • hsiinhsiin Posts: 1
    Hello, I am from Taiwan, and will go to study in States next month. I found carmarkets are very different between countries and I'd like to share you what's different here. Maybe it won't be help for you in buying a car in U.S, but you may find something interesting.

    A Golf 2.0 GLS here is about 30,000 US. dollars because of high import tax. But everyone who ownes a VW feel it's worth. Here, A VW's product is compared with a BMW, because of it's applearing(exterior and interior), and many parts that borrow from Audi. And a BMW 323i costs about 50,000 dollars in Taiwan. Therefore, some people buy a VW if he couldn't offer 50,000.

    A SOCH V-Tech Civic (we don't have a DOCH si) with powereverything,leather seat, 6 Disk CD Changer, wood trim, alloy wheels,even VCD, radar alarm for parking, mobil information system includes e-map...is about 20,000. Because it's produced domestic, so it's much cheaper and still have good quality. It's realy saled a lots but I feel it is just like a reliable multi-function electric watch that can be bought in 3 dollars in Taiwan's nightmarket.

    In my country, the best sales "compact" car is Nissan Sentra, the market is about 3 times than Civic, because of the MORE equipment, better appearing(Taiwan's company that produce Nissan car bought Benz, BMW even R-R for reference and redesign Sentra and Maxiam and very successful)

    we also don't have a Intergue here, I have heared that is a great car, but I don't like its style. Accord is popular but is still defeated by Maxiam(We call it Cefiro). If young people want a speedly car, most of them will consider Impreza GT Tubro first, its tubo boxser engine with AWD make it 0-60 in 6seconds, and it's easy to update and reduce 1-2seconds. It costs about 31,000 dollars.

    My car now is an 1994 Infinte G20 called Nissan Primra here. Its about 20,000 dollars when I bought in new, and it is even cheaper than a Toyota Corolla import from US.

    Interesting..
  • only1harryonly1harry Posts: 1,136
    The distributor rotor should be covered by the warranty but it's very easy to replace. It's a little plastic circular part that almost anyone can do it. Lika sentra20 said, make sure you don't mismatch the ignition wires that connect to the top of the distributor cap.
  • only1harryonly1harry Posts: 1,136
    I don't give up yet, I 'll make you see the light sooner or later! :-) just kidding. Very interesting setup you 3 have.. Do you ever fight who is going to keep the car during the week? :)

    Do you guys have at least a 22mm rear sway bar? (I know Skunkworks came with 20 & 21mm before making bigger ones, think they 're up to 23mm now). I 'd highly recommend a rear upper strut bar if you don't already have one. Neuspeed or Spoon make really good ones, stay away from the DC Sports one - very weak. But if you guys are winning races and trophies with the GSR, why bother?
    You 're right about the Type-R. I wouldn't use it as a daily driver or commute with it. My brother doesn't either. I 'd only drive it on the weekends and race the hell out of it every spring/summer, which is what he does..
    My '99 GSR is not my daily driver either. My '97 Civic HB is. The GSR lately has seen more
    auto-x tracks/parking lots than regular roads.
    The Type-R you must admit dominates the GS class and that 's why most ITR owners leave them stock.
    A well modified GSR can beat a stock ITR, yes, but it will take at least what you have on your car, a really good driver and $$ dinero. Coilovers (at least 350lbs/F & 300lbs/Rear), adjustable shocks and a minimum of 22mm rear sway are a must when going up against a stock ITR (with racing tires). You will also need a set of good aftermarket brake pads for more stopping power. Remember the Type-R has Limited Slip so that's where the coilovers & performance shocks come in to play to counter that feature in the ITR. It would still be very hard for a GSR to beat a stock ITR with Kumho tires (like my brother has on) or any other racing tire (ITR remains in the GS class). But it's doable.
    Have you ever driven a Type-R? or been in one?
    My modded GSR still doesn't compare to it. The ITR has unbelievable brakes that are very hard to make them fade (unlike the GSR's) and with racing tires it feels like a go-kart! Braking is very important in auto-x for those really tight turns or 90deg. ones. There 's nothing better than getting a nice handling package right out of the box/factory. But if you can get a modded GSR for like $10K like you guys did, then I agree, work with the GSR..
    What kind of spring rates are your Skunkworks coilovers? You have a pretty nice setup. I don't have coilovers but I have H&R Sports springs. The coilovers were mucho$$ but I 'm still considering Ground Controls for next year.
  • The coilovers are junk. I have no idea what the spring rates are. I would rather have put straight springs in it. The rear quarters popped all of the time. We made a rear strut tower brace after the first race. It helped a little. Now we get a lot of 3 wheeling around corners. One guy has even had it on 2 wheels. We are now looking at mounting a cage in it. We have not stripped the interior out yet, but we are not far from that. I have never driven a Type-R or rode in one. I race with a guy that has one. He is one hell of a driver(raced street bikes before this). I have not seen him out this year. :( He ran on street tires last year and nearly beat me in my '94 GSR Sedan with Nuespeed .75 inch drop springs and the Skunkworks 21mm bar, and the Kuhmo's. The LSD would rule. My SER came with that I love the way you can exit the corners. I plan on racing the SER this weekend to see what it is capable of. The GSR and GTI are going to sit. The SER is stock, but I will run my 15x7 wheels on it and have to run in DSP. As fast as the GSR is the Rabbit is more fun to race. It is racing at it simplest form. Throw out all the technology and other crap and just drive. (no heater, no radio, no ac, and no interior) I love the cage, harness, and racing buckets. The best part about the car is that I bought it the way it is and didn't have to touch it. The car is in mint condition and is painted yellow. I parked it next to a '00 Yellow ITR at the first race of the season and I had more lookers then the guy in the ITR. (not to mention faster times) It also beat a punk in a Supercharged Civic Ex. He said it runs high 13's in the quarter. I'm guessing the Rabbit won't do much under 17. How could he lose on a course where the back half is a flat footed race to the lights? Either way I'm sure he'll be back for more. Later.
  • Doesn't the Camero give the Type-R a hard time in GS?
  • mznmzn Posts: 727
    I think we were on the VW Golf vs. the Honda Civic.... ;-)

    carlady/host
  • Back to the original topic. It is really not a valid argument. The Golf has more standard options. These are options that are not available on the Civic. Honda hatchback buyers must not be looking for the extra goodies and just want reliable transportation, otherwise Honda would still offer the Si. I wish Honda still made the Si hatchback. (or better yet brought over the Type-R hatchback) I will not drive a car without AC, Cruise, a Tach, and a 5-speed. The Civic DX doesn’t have a Tach or Cruise. You could add after market ones, but I really am not excited about the way either of them look or work. I would also like a factory installed PWR Moon-roof. Which is not available on the Civic. Maybe we should start a Golf vs. Focus ZX3 board.
  • mznmzn Posts: 727
    Been there, done that! ;-) See topic #246 for Focus vs. Golf comparisons!

    carlady/host
  • sentra20ser,

    I think the DX has a tach, it's missing on the CX. My opinion is that hatchback buyers in general aren't looking for the extra goodies. Chances are Honda finds that people are willing to pay more for a sporty coupe than for hatchbacks.

    But I'm with you, I like lots of equipment on my car. I use to own a 98 civic DX. It was a great car for what it was .. reliable, economical, and practical. But no A/C, no power windows, no sunroof. Long distance driving on hot days were the worst. Guess I was too cheap to pay for the dealer installed A/C (they were asking $1700 Cdn :-o).
  • If I'm correct they don't offer a tach in a US Civic DX. Not even the coupe or Sedan. (Only1harry) Am I right about this?
  • rfruthrfruth Posts: 630
    Here is my 2 cents worth, when I was in the market for something new last year went to a couple VW dealerships cause I at least wanted to look at a
    Golf, there was none (plenty of other high dollar models but no Golf's) in stock and thought to myself if their having trouble taking my money now what happens down the road when I need parts and or service ? Went to a local Honda dealer and there were several Civic's ready to go, guess what I ended up with ? ((Not so good VW dealerships ?))


    Rob Fruth - Houston, Tx
    http://freeweb.pdq.net/rfruth

    1981 Raleigh for commuting, errands & fun
    1997 Trek 2300 for real fun !
    2000 Civic DX hatch (no OEM tach available in US)
  • qwordqword Posts: 20
    Maybe in some parts of the states the Golfs are hard to come by. I own a 2000 Golf GLS TDI that was purchased back in November of 1999. At that particular time there were a total of three TDI's on the lot. Just last week I took my girl friend to that same lot to look at the 1.8t Golf and to my surprise they didn't have a single TDI Golf. Plenty of base model Golfs, and GLS models but no TDI's. Since then I've visited three other VW dealers here in the Dallas Fort Worth area and again have found plenty of base and GLS model Golfs but no TDI's.. Maybe they just can't build them fast enough..
  • goopgoop Posts: 23
    Well, another perspective on this is that there were plenty of boring Civics because it's a common car, and demand for the cool Golf makes them harder to come by. :) Or if I leave a plate out with chocolate candy and liver sandwiches, guess which one is going to be gone first. :)

    Sorry, couldn't resist, and before the flames come, it's all in good fun.

    Saw your page - cool bike. I've got a Specialized Rockhopper that I need to use more. I'll check some of those links you have since I'm looking for a low key night riding club.
  • only1harryonly1harry Posts: 1,136
    Yep, NO tac on Civic CX & DX hatch and coupes. That's the only thing I don't like about my DX HB but you get used to it quickly. The manual gives you the top speed of each gear up to 3d (4th achieves top speed, not 5th in a Civic) so if I need to push it I know exactly where to shift. I 've actually tested the REV limiter in 1st,2nd and 3d so I know what my speedometer reads just before the fuel cutoff kicks in. Top speed is always around 115mph in 4th gear - drag limited (not ECU).
    As far as model availability (VW TDI, etc.) most of the time the manufacturer has a predetermined # that they will build for each model. When the '00 Celica came out, Toyota announced that 69% of all Celicas will be automatic and that less that about 16% of all Celicas will be the GT-S model. They already have all that stuff figured out and planned out. I guess they look at previous year sales, trends, etc. and will adjust manufacturing for the next year if their figures are off.. I too had a tough time finding an Integra GSR only because 1 out of 8-9 Integras are GSRs. When I found a couple they didn't have my color, and so on..
    And finally to repeat what I 've said before for the umpteenth time, this is not a fair comparison between the Golf and Civic HB because of the many reasons that have been mentioned.
  • What springs would work well with our '97 GSR?
    We currently have the Skunk Works coil-overs. We are not happy with them. Do you know of anyone that runs H&R/Neuspeed Race Springs? Are they to hard? We don't trailor the car to events so would we be able to stand the stiff ride for 2 hours 1-way?
  • Where would you get them? Nopi, Summit Racing, etc.
  • only1harryonly1harry Posts: 1,136
    Although I have the H&R Sports and like them a lot, I 'd recommend the Neuspeed Sports because they 're stiffer and have higher spring rates.
    I don't recommend Racing springs for any street driving. They 're so stiff that when you go over some bumps, especially on a turn the car changes direction! The H&R & Neuspeed racing springs are way too stiff. The spring rates are 583lbs (F) and 450lbs (Rear)! Knowing how stiff my ride is now with the H&R Sports, I 'd never touch these springs.
    The H&R Sports are softer but still a lot stiffer than stock GSR springs. H&R Sports are
    276(F)/220(R). However I think for auto-x, if I had to do it all over again, I 'd get the Neuspeed Sports: Their spring rates are: 350F/280R. These spring rates are very similar to what most auto-x'ers order from Ground Controls when they specify the stiffness of the GC coilovers they 're buying. Your most common spring rate of an auto-xer with coilovers is 350F/300R. The Neuspeed Sports best matches this figure and they 're much cheaper than coilovers.
    I know many people that have them as well as 2 Type-R's. My friend dropped his times by at least 1 sec. with the Neuspeed Sports on his ITR. My brother hasn't been able to come close to him with his stock Type-R since.
    Anyway, if you must go with Racing Springs, go with Neuspeed again, only because I heard they have a little better ride than the H&R racing ones. I 'm a big H&R fan and love my H&R Sports, but I hear when it comes to racing springs, Neuspeed's are a little easier on your spine :-)
    PS. This is actually no joke, I know one guy that after 3 years on racing springs, he 's having all kinds of back problems and there's something with 2 of his discs, not sure. Your spine takes a lot of pounding with Racing springs.
    At least make sure you set those Konis for the softest setting on the way to the track.
  • qkrielqkriel Posts: 1
    Does anywone have an option on whether the extra cash for the Jetta over the Golf would be worthwhile.
  • rfruthrfruth Posts: 630
    Should have known I was leaving myself wide open to a boring Civic cool Golf comment when I said there were no Golf's on the dealers lots around here so I got a Civic, there all boring to me once the novelty has worn off, I've never owned or
    even ridden in a Golf maybe need to ? Hey Rockhopper night riding, I can't believe how much good bicycle lightning costs ! Course cars
    & the like come with a lightning system, wonder what that adds to the cost ?


    Rob Fruth - Houston, Tx
    http://freeweb.pdq.net/rfruth

    1981 Raleigh for commuting, errands & fun
    1997 Trek 2300 for real fun !
    2000 Civic DX hatchback when I have to
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