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Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan Hybrid

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Comments

  • So lets say you save $400 a year, and the premium for the hybrid is $2,500, it will take you 6 years 3 months to make up the cost.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Say you eschew the hybrid and buy the SE.

    I would take you till infinity to save anything.

    So 6 years and 3 months is not long to wait.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,423
    And you seem stuck on this all being about dollars and cents and direct comparison of the FFH to the non-hybrid Fusion. People do not buy cars on best price alone and mostly never have. Otherwise, we would not have such a profusion of models and choices. Most people who buy a hybrid would not consider a plain ICE Fusion, so on that alone, your bare monetary comparison is beside the point.

    There are all sorts of reasons people buy hybrids now, but absolute dollar savings at purchase is hardly dominant. And if you are figuring correctly, you should be looking at overall cost of ownership. That includes gas, maintenance, depreciation (hugely different sometimes), insurance. Then there is owner satisfaction, the idiosyncratic worth of having the latest thing or something that is more green, even if more expensive. It's another choice and current hybrids represent a step toward real change, though it is early on. Of course the new tech will cost more, develop fast and be obsolete quickly as well. But some people have to buy the developing products along the way, or the development will never happen or never continue.

    Buy a car for reasons that make sense to you, but understand that your reasoning may not apply to someone else. And that, as Martha says, is a good thing.
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    I bought a 2007 Prius, drove it 10 months, put 24,000 miles on it, saved more in fuel costs each month to make the car payment with some left over, sold it in 2008 for more than I paid for it, got $1400 back on a $800 warranty plan, and haven't looked back. Basically drove it for free.

    Anyone who says it takes so much for so long to make up the difference, can stick it in their ear. If you buy it to replace something already getting 30 MPG, well, don't use that logic, but replace a gas guzzler or two with it, and reap the rewards.
  • But Gregg, now you make it sound like a fad. What about the satisfaction of driving an H2, Ford Expedition, F-350? For the majority of the population it is about dollars and sense.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,972
    ther are those of us that think that anyone who drives 24k per year, has made some bad decisions.
    set up your environment to drive less, and you are ahead of the game.
    at 24k per year you go through tires(ahem, petroleum based), brakes, and other consumables at a higher rate then someone who drives less.
    my wife wanted a FEH, but even she could not justify the price, based on her annual mileage.
    we pay annual property tax on vehicles. the higher purchase price, plus probably less depreciation, will add up too.
    if you are considering a FFH, it it pretty much the same.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Sorry this is just incorrect because you are only comparing one set of figures.

    The FFH and the TCH are both slotted between the I4 and V6 versions of their non-hybrid siblings - similarly equipped. In the case of the FFH vs V6 Fusion there is no premium at all. The FFH is a much less costly option....from Day 1.

    If the FFH ends up being like the TCH after a short while then the differential will only be about $1500 and depending on the price of gas it may only take a yr or two for the FFH to end up less costly than the ICE.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I'm certain that the vehicle can't maintain 40 mph for 10 min even with a fully charged battery unless the terrain is all downhill.

    All the following criteria must be in place for the vehicle to get maximum fuel economy results:
    ..the terrain must be flat
    ..there can be little or no head or cross winds
    ..the pavement must be dry
    ..there cannot be excessive weight in the vehicle ( driver only )
    ..the temperature must be moderate
    ..the battery must be fully charged
    ..the speed of the vehicle must be moderate and constant, such as under 37 mph.

    With all these requirements being present the driver might be able to achieve several minutes of gas-free driving. 10 min is far too long.

    Downhill is different and up hill or rolling terrain is WAY different.
  • bigtbigt Posts: 413
    Gee all of this is starting to make me think I should wait for the Chevy Volt!
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    This is called an SOTP or 'back of the envelope' analysis.

    There are many other factors that you've missed. Breakout the spreadsheet....
    ...consider the future curve of fuel prices ( Are fuel prices going to remain $1.98 for the next 7 years 'til 2016? Very unlikely. )
    ...consider the different prices between the I4, FFH and V6 Fusion
    ...consider resale values ( Depending on when you sell your vehicles you recover all or part of the hybrid 'premium'. )
    ...consider the Federal and local tax advantages.
    ...consider the lower maintenance costs.
    ...consider how many mile that you will drive each year then how long you keep your vehicles on average. 4 yrs? 8 yrs? 'til death?

    I've done this analysis for every 'full' hybrid on the road now. In most cases the hybrids cost less than the ICE-only vehicle. In some cases ( Matrix vs Prius ) they cost the same unless they are kept for 12 yrs of normal driving.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    The Volt will have the same limiting criteria as the FFH or Prius or HCH. The outside external factors affect every vehicle on the road. Just change the name from FFH to Volt and everything in the prior post still holds true.

    Your vehicle is the same right now today.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Gosh I can't believe that you could write this entire post and include so many inaccurate statements. Please do a minimum of research first.

    Your statement from HybridCars.com is worthless because you didn't give the link to the original source. Likely they were discussing NiCads which are harmful.
  • cannon3cannon3 Posts: 296
    This new Fulan hybrid has caused a run on these vehicles for at least 2 years. The dealers do not have to deal. Anyone who buys one is going to pay top dollar. The old supply/demand from Economics 101. Ford needs to increase production NOW because there are other hybrids coming down the pipe. If Ford marketing were thinking they would want to satisfy EVERY customer. Whether they be a new one or return. Grab this new market they have created.
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    Wrong, it can maintain 40 MPH for about 10 minutes, if there is enough capacity. I do it consistently in the TCH depending on traffic and lights. I can drive from 176 and 14 all the way to 31 if I can hit every light and not have others in my way. It takes about 10 minutes to get from one to the other. The ICE does kick in occasionally when I hit a slight grade in the road, but a quick release of the throttle gets it back to EV. If the Fusion has more capacity, and more EV power, then I can easily see it doing it.
  • On the question about how long/far will the FFH go in EV mode, I'd read in a review a month back that it would go about 2 miles in EV mode. I don't know if that was the author's guess or info from Ford.

    Saw a 2010 Fusion I4 at the dealer on Thursday. Nice car! Don't know how different it is from the 2009 model.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,423
    For those attracted to the H2, there likely is a driving satisfaction that driving for example a mid-size car would not impart.

    For the majority of the population it is about dollars and sense I beg to differ. Trucks as commuter vehicles, SUVs selling like hotcakes until gas went to $4, the preference for CUvs over station wagons, the preference for little sedans with pimple trunks over hatchbacks are all examples of people buying what they want, not necessarily what is most sensible for their needs.

    But you missed my main point. Someone has to buy the new tech, even when it is still more costly than the old tech, in order to provde a market and spur further development (and eventual price reductions). You don't have to and your reasoning makes sense. However, for someone else the purchase is worth it, and that is a good thing.
  • coldcrankercoldcranker Posts: 877
    kdhspyder, Of course the 10 minutes @ 40 mph will go down if the car is loaded more. It might go down to 7 minutes or so, but not too severely. Electric only cruise time is not destroyed completely as you seem to indicate. WyattNichol's report on it going 2 miles is actually closer to what you would get.
  • Cool. Go on wikipedia and look up hybrid batteries, you will find the quote there.
    Not to sound like a Chevy basher but I am willing to bet that the Volt will be a monumental flop. With a starting price of $40,000, probable loss on each car sold throughout the product life, and the Insight/Prius being a extension cord away from being a competitor; the Volt just doesn't make sense.
  • coldcrankercoldcranker Posts: 877
    Some posting above have seemed to indicate there is a great deal of difference in how "clean" (less polluting) some new cars are compared to each other. The reality is that new cars are all very clean, the differences between them being very small. Negligible in fact. Pollution standards for all 2010 cars make them all about equally clean, even when compared to CNG Civics, for that matter. Don't worry about that. OBDII and the EPA have ensured they are plenty clean.

    That said, the best vehicle for the environment is going to be the one that uses the least amount of fuel, as that means less CO2 in the atmosphere. Also, remember the Ford Fusion Hybrid is great, but the normal Fusion 4 cyl will get 34 MPG hiway for 2010, so its a good tradeoff, too. Who really wants all those dead-weight hybrid batteries and electric motors? Actually, a little known secret out there now is that the next hybrid cars won't have electric motors or batteries at all. Hydraulic hybrid cars don't need any batteries or electrical stuff, bypassing that whole problem, and this tech would work great in a 2012 Ford Fusion Hybrid. We've got a hydraulic hybrid debuting at the next auto show, and it increases fuel economy by about 55% in city driving, and 15% in hiway driving. Thats how future tougher CAFE standards will be met! Sans batteries!
  • coldcrankercoldcranker Posts: 877
    dbostondriver said: "Insight/Prius being a extension cord away from being a competitor"

    The reason the Prius/Insight and Fusion Hybrid cost less is largely due to the fact that they have far less batteries than a Volt will. The Volt will allow for up to about 40 miles on electric-only, while these other vehicles might get you 2 miles or so. Big difference. In the marketplace, I agree the Volt does seem overpriced though.
  • coldcrankercoldcranker Posts: 877
    Escape and Fusion Hybrids: 1.3 KWH
    Prius: 1.3 KWH
    Camry Hyb: 1.3 KWH (guess)

    2010 Honda Insight: 0.6 KWH -- one extreme! A "light" hybrid. Cheaper!
    Chevy Volt: 16 KWH -- another extreme, lots of range, very expensive.

    With those KWH numbers, I wouldn't expect the Fusion Hybrid to go more than 2 miles, as said. Note the Fusion Hybrid gets much greater fuel economy than the Camry 1.3 KWH vehicle as well. Does the Camry actually have less KWH than a Prius or Fusion Hyb car? I've assumed the battery pack is about the same in the Camry as in the Prius (1.3 KWH), but couldn't get confirmation of that. Anybody know how that compares to the Fusion Hybrid and Prius's 1.3 KWH?
  • coldcrankercoldcranker Posts: 877
    Don't necessarily drink the koolaid that you need all those expensive batteries and electric motors to get 40 MPG:

    "If it were our money, the Fusion/Milan we want would be powered by the combination of a 1.6L EcoBoost four with dual-clutch transmission and start/stop that we saw in the Lincoln Concept C at this year's Detroit Auto Show. That powertrain would virtually match the 40-mpg fuel consumption potential of this hybrid at a considerably lower cost and no reduction in trunk space. Ford could probably offer that car in the low $20k range, virtually matching the VW Jetta TDI in price. But that car doesn't exist. Yet."

    My comment: They are right. http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/03/10/review-2010-mercury-milan-hybrid/
  • Good point, seems like a compromise would be a best bet.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    kdhspyder, Of course the 10 minutes 40 mph will go down if the car is loaded more. It might go down to 7 minutes or so, but not too severely. Electric only cruise time is not destroyed completely as you seem to indicate. WyattNichol's report on it going 2 miles is actually closer to what you would get.

    HUH? That's exactly what I was saying in reply to the prior post. IMO 10 min in EV mode is too long. 2-4 min at a constant speed is about max from my experience. But...I can drive for up to 10 min without the ICE engaging if I coast down from 60 mph to 15 mph from a highway-driving to residential-area-driving.

    But...as I noted above the outside conditions have to be perfect to accomplish this goal. Strong winds, bad traction, cold weather and extra weight will increase the demand on the battery thus shorten the EV period.
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Posts: 1,405
    Pointless argument anyway. My experience with the TCH is that "pure" EV mode distance is meaningless. The TCH and I assume the FFH will give their best results when there is a mix of ICE engagement over the long haul allowing the battery to stay close to fully charged and assisting when needed for acceleration on to propel the car once in motion allowing the ICE to shut down or be assisted.

    My best "sustainable" milage with the TCH, meaning on a drive longer than what the car could have went in full EV mode anyway, was on mildly hilly rural roads in West Virginia. I once obtained 57 mpg experimenting on a 25 mile drive using the back roads and practicing operations that yield maximum benefits from a hybrid system. In normal driving I would still obtain 42mpg on that same route.

    Highway milage comparisons, such as the ads use, are useless unless one really does drive or commute with 90% of their driving on the interstate (and not the stop and go kinds like the DC beltway). The small cars advertising 33 mpg highway may do much better than that but my experience for my driving is I usually have an overall FE closer to the city milage. So comparing a Fusion with (I don't know the numbers) 24 city / 33 highway where I (and many others) would average no better than 26mpg to a FFH with something like 41 city / 40 highway and I could actually average 40 mpg requires me to be reasonable and compare the milage I expect to see for my type of driving. So for me instead of comparing 33 to 40 I would think it is more reasonable to compare 26 to 40 to see if it makes sense.

    It's fun to watch these posts as they are identical arguments and opinions to the TCH threads from May 2006. I would never own a 4cySE Fusion but am interested in the FFH. Some find that hard to believe but my initial capital in buying a car has little to do with comparing different grade levels of the same model.
  • bigtbigt Posts: 413
    Here the President is going to make some sort of announcement on Monday reference the auto industry. I wonder if he is going to extend the tax credits. I am on the fence about this. I could go into my dealer on Tuesday and go for the Milan HB trading in my 2007 MKZ. If the tax credit gets extended I might wait to see one and perhaps pay less than MRSP. Then on the other hand I could also wait one or two years to see what other neat things come out. This is like Vegas, gas now going over 2 bucks. I got this feeling it will be 3 this year and 4 next year. If this happens you will not be able to even see a HB on the lot!
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    It's all over the GM boards.

    Tomorrow morning the President will give GM 60 days to restructure or it goes into a government controlled bankruptcy.
    Tomorrow morning he will give Chrysler 30 days to be bought out by Fiat or it goes into Chp 11.
    The CEO of GM is being pressured to leave, he will quit tomorrow.
    Both GM and Chrysler will get some more money to stay afloat until the new deadlines. If they can't do it on their own then the loans get repaid and it's bankruptcy court.
  • bigtbigt Posts: 413
    I am at the dealership about to drive and purchase a black one!
  • hayley2hayley2 Posts: 44
    I'm envious!!! When did this Black one arrive at your dealer? We ordered a Silver one back on Feb 23rd, and it was just assigned a Vin # this past week. The Dealer also has a Black one that is due in earlier, but they do not have an eta on it as yet. I'm thinking I'll need to wait another three to four weeks? Just a guess though. We're anxious to receive an eta on it. Keep us posted on how you liked the test drive.
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