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Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan Hybrid

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  • Replying to kdhspyder's post #150:

    Well, Car and Driver mag clocked a Prius 0-60 mph in 11.3 seconds. Thats very slow. In comparison, my '05 Freestyle goes 0-60 in 8.5 seconds, and its even considered a little slow. And since the electric motors and batteries weigh about 400 lbs, one could build an all-gas-engine Prius that comes in at 2500 lbs instead of 2900 lbs, which means a 1.2L or 1.3L engine can easily get the same 11.3 secs 0-60 times the Prius Hybrid gets now. And braking / handling would be better because of the more nimble weight. And it would be $5,000 cheaper. The light narrow body and small narrow wheels contribute a lot to the fuel economy, more than non-engineers might think. (My guess is you're not an engineer, kdhspyder.)

    kdyhspyder, this is the easiest argument I ever won.

    But to the real subject of this thread, the Ford Fusion is a much more robust car than the Prius. Fusion is roomier, more rugged, better in crosswinds, handling, etc. than the Prius, so Ford has done an excellent job. As for me, I wouldn't buy it since I don't do anywhere near 15,000+ miles per year, as I can get a 4-cylinder Fusion non-hybrid for thousands less.
  • ral2167ral2167 Posts: 642
    Anyone know the actual release date of the 2010 fusion-- either gas or hybrid? thanks
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I was estimating the weight of the vehicle. Yes 2900 is more accurate.

    Even without the battery pack, two e-motors and PSD...but plus the weight of a traditional tranny the vehicle would likely weigh in at about 2600lbs which puts it slightly heavier than the Yaris and Fit both of which also use the 1.5L ICE.

    Because of it's extra size and weight, with or without the hybrid option, the Prius is quicker to 60 and in the 1/4 mile than the Yaris but not as quick as the the Fit. But that's more due to Toyota's tuning of the engines for Fuel Economy rather than for performance.

    The passenger volume of the Prius is significantly greater than the other two but the real kicker is that the fuel economy is far far better than the other two 1.5L ICE-only vehicles.

    Fit.......... 28 City / 35 High / 31 Comb
    Yaris...... 29 City / 35 High / 31 Comb
    Prius...... 48 City / 45 High / 46 Comb

    So dropping the hybrid option would essentially make the Prius into a Fit. Whoopee. The whole idea of the hybrid option is to improve the fuel economy.

    BTW all of them have normal 15" wheels which at the time they were designed 6+ yrs ago was the standard for that vehicle size. We'll see about the Gen 3 is debuted in about 5 min.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Three other reviews including one here at Edmunds had the 0-60's at 10.2, 10.4 and 10.4 so it appears that the C&D driver forgot how to use the GO Pedal.

    See prior post about weight and engine size. That's what this tangent was about in any event. But that's all moot now. The Gen 2's are finished as of today. The G3's will soon be built with 0-60's closer to your Freestyle.....but getting 50 mpg.

    Yes your point about driving well under 15000 miles is critical. At that level it really doesn't matter which vehicle is chosen. Just choosing the most enjoyable one is all that matters.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    Production starts in about 3 weeks. Probably hit dealers in March - no later than April. No word yet on the hybrid having a different schedule.
  • The main point to consider here is the Ford Fusion Hyb will be a roomier, better handling, better steering, tougher alternative to the Toy Prius. Also, remember you can go up to 47 mph in the Fusion Hyb on electric power only, beating the Prius yet again. (One thing Toyotas, and the Prius is no exception, gets criticized for repeatedly is their numb, lifeless steering feel. I confirmed that common complaint after driving a couple of models. Toyota falls very short in that important driver experience.)
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    The other thing to question is - if they can get such great mileage out of the Prius - why is the Camry hybrid so low? That's the real comparison for the FFH, not the Prius.
  • Right, the Fusion Hybrid handily beats the Camry Hyb in MPG, and is styled better as well in my opinion. Car and Driver, Feb. 2009 issue has the Ford Fusion Hybrid handling better, too. Toyota is so far taking a back seat to Ford. We'll see if the next Camry improves, because it needs to.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    True this. With the FFH Ford has just hit an overhead smash into Toyota's court..it's up to them to react or lose the point.
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,698
    A smash, yes, if Ford can make enough of them...
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,176
    if Ford can make enough of them...

    You can bet that Toyota will do everything in their power to undermine the parts supply as they did with the Escape Hybrid. They had common suppliers if memory serves me. And Ford claimed they were being held up by Toyota.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Posts: 2,743
    That could actually be a great piece of PR if Toyota sinks that low. However, it sounds as if a couple of new battery manufacturers are coming on-line in the States (well, assemblers maybe).
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    AFAIK Ford still has to use the same Japanese suppliers it did in the past for the near term. But...it has already signed a supply agreement with Johnson Controls/SAFT of France to be their main client. When it comes on stream is anybody's guess. I'd say 18 months for full production for Ford alone.

    Oh, and who said that business needed to be fair? The business I know is kill, maim and crush...but do it with a smile and a handshake.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Posts: 2,743
    Oh, and who said that business needed to be fair? The business I know is kill, maim and crush...but do it with a smile and a handshake.

    Actually, I've always thought of it as more of a football game. You can get away with murder so long as the refs don't throw the yellow flag. Then you're gonna get penalized.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    I believe they're using a different battery supplier for the FFH (Sanyo??). They're still constrained by battery capacity though.

    How many TCHs did Toyota sell last year?
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    For the 2008 calendar year, Camry Hybrid sold 46,272 units, a drop of 15.1% from the year before.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,423
    The other thing to question is - if they can get such great mileage out of the Prius - why is the Camry hybrid so low? That's the real comparison for the FFH, not the Prius. The Camry hybrid does not get "low" mileage. It is a bigger, heavier, roomier car than the Prius, it is equipped like a luxury car, and it gets better mileage than all intermediates, save the Fusion hybrid. The Prius as I am sure you know is a dedicated hybrid, with comcommitant weird styling and very low hp relative to the Camry. The Fusion leapfrogged the Camry a bit...I expect the next Camry hybrid (the current one is several model years older than the 2010 Fusion) will show strides as well.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Remember, too, that until we get cars on the road a "real world" drivers tell us the MPG the new Fusion/Milan is really getting, we don't really have good comparison data.

    Since the FEH is the best-mileage hybrid SUV on the road, it's not surprising that the FFH/MMH will have a strong number for it's size.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    I meant low in comparison to the Prius and the FFH. My point was that you can't compare the FFH fuel economy to the Prius because it's a different vehicle from the Camry/Fusion.
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,653
    One big advantage Toyota has is their hybrid's have been reliable. While I haven't heard anything bad about the hybrid Escape, the Fusion will be unproven. That said, I wouldn't be caught dead in a Prius. I don't need to make a statement. Hell, I love my '07 Expedition that I use to tow our boat and camper. The Camry Hybrid seems to be a good car, but to stale a driving experience for me. I've driven many Camry's and their steering feel is like a Buick, horrible IMO. The Fusion would be my pick, decent acceleration, with good steering and chassis performance, plus class leading FE.

    I read the C & D comparison and at least Ford seems to have something for their efforts. As usual GM is a mess as the Malibu hybrid is basically a joke. I'm thinking the Volt will to be to late.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    At $40000 the Volt won't even be a blip on the radar. It's too expensive, especially in this new world of diminished expectations and diminished credit availability.

    Ford, Toyota and Honda have it right. Get the hybrid technology into the vehicles that the bulk of the customers actually can buy. GM needs it's 2-Mode technology in the Malibu tomorrow, but it's at least a year or two away. GM has all of its efforts wrapped up in the Volt.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    While I haven't heard anything bad about the hybrid Escape, the Fusion will be unproven.

    The Fusion hybrid system is just an improved version of the Escape system. The Escape system has been flawless as far as I know - they're even being used as NYC taxis. If it hasn't failed by now I don't think it will. And there's no reason to think the Fusion will be any different based on it's track record.
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,653
    If it hasn't failed by now I don't think it will. And there's no reason to think the Fusion will be any different based on it's track record.

    I agree with you, but the point I was attempting to make is that Ford does not have the reputation regarding their hybrids that Toyota has. It's been well publicized that Toyota's hybrids are very reliable. I'd say most people aren't aware of a hybrid Escape.

    With the 2010 Fusion, I think Ford definitely has a winner. GM still looks lost as ever.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    But Ford's overall reputation for quality is becoming widely known (finally), especially on the Fusion. So you have a vehicle with stellar quality and a hybrid system that's been proven in the Escape. I don't see a problem.
  • bigtbigt Posts: 413
    I agrree and I am in about to go pre-order my Milan Hybrid. Going to sell my MKZ.
  • bigt said: "I agrree and I am in about to go pre-order my Milan Hybrid. Going to sell my MKZ."

    Smart move. Fun one, too. I'm guessing you'll have it in another 4 months. The delay will be caused by the glowing Feb. 2009 Car and Driver test review of it spiking demand.
  • Well, the upcoming Honda Insight got its first test from Edmunds recently. Its small like the Prius, and has even wimpier wheels/tires, 15" 175mm wide tires. The Prius has 15" 185 mm tires. They're now saying they expect the Insight to have EPA MPG figures of about 40 for both city/hiway, about the same as the Fusion. The Fusion hybrid will be a roomier, larger, more useful vehicle for those that need the interior space, and the Fusion will be safer (larger vehicle). The Insight will be priced much cheaper than a Fusion or Prius, so there is an advantage there.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,423
    Plus, contrary to that report, the Insight will get significantly better mileage.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Posts: 2,743
    Huh? Contrary to the report that it will get about the same mileage as the Fusion, it's going to get more? Based on what information exactly?
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,423
    http://www.autoblog.com/2009/01/11/abg-first-drive-2010-honda-insight-63-4-mpg/

    Ratings will be higher than Fusion (as they should be...smaller, lighter, less powerful), and careful driving should net you 60 mpg.
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