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Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan Hybrid

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  • bigtbigt Posts: 413
    Hi, I am curious what happens in a HB vehicle when you start it in the freezing cold and turn on the heater. I assume the gas engine immediately kicks in? Does the same thing occur during the summer when you turn on the AC?
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,675
    This varies from vehicle to vehicle and generation to generation. In the newer ones the AC is electric so it doesn't require the ICE. In older ones it does require the ICE to be running. Heat is probably different since the engine retains heat even when it's not running, but it could be programmed to start the ICE if heat was needed.
  • Regarding bigt's question about AC and heater usage, to be sure using those any one of those will cause the engine to run more, reducing overall MPG. Even if the heater uses an electrical heating element, that uses energy. I don't know if the engine will simply automatically start up as soon as you flip the AC or heater switch. Good question, though.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    What does the FEH system do when the heat is demanded? I'd guess that the heat comes from the ICE does it not? The new technology for the hybrids uses electric AC so there is no need for the ICE to be 'ON' unless the demand for the AC has drawn down the battery to the point that the ICE has to jump in and recharge the lost juice.

    To reply to the OP about the heater I'd guess that the ICE kicks on pretty quickly after it warms up in order to heat the cabin. Actually all vehicles lose about 10% of their nominal fuel economy rating in the winter because the ICE has to run more frequently. This is especially true of the hybrids. The ICE has to warm the fluids, warm the cabin - continuously and warm up the catalytic converter. The ICE has a LOT of work to do in wintertime. Thus fuel economy suffers.
  • kdhspyder, Your last post demonstrated a non-engineer viewpoint. Much lack of understanding of energy conservation and thermodynamics. I hope those reading this thread will keep in mind its a little like a pharmacist trying to talk like an opthamologist, he can try but it probably won't come out right.

    Like I said in the other thread, I'll bet you're a capable salesman, but this is just not your area.
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,539
    ?? Coldcranker, I don't see the problem with his post. Nothing worth pointing out, that's for sure.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    ALL cars (hybrid and non-hybrid) get less mpg as the temps drop. Takes them longer to get to optimum operating temp and stay there) and all moving components are affected. You really see the mpgs plummet when the temp stays below 0F, like it has here recently. Still, you'd be doing better than everyone else in a hybrid.
  • Most of the MPG loss in cold weather is due to stiffer tire rubber and higher viscosity oil before operating temp is reach. The normal thermodynamic waste heat from an ICE is always there, cold temps or not, and they don't make the engine waste any more energy cold than hot, as kdhspyder had said earlier.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    While you pretend to be conversant in auto technology you have a huge blind spot where the hybrids are concerned. You don't seem to be aware of, or don't accept, the fact that the key to saving fuel is not burning any. This is why the hybrids have higher fuel efficiency ratings. The ICE in the hybrid is able to turn off or turn down to idle or run at it's most efficient state as demand requires. The normal ICE has to run all the time.

    However in wintertime the ICE in the hybrid has to run more frequently for the reasons I noted above. There is nothing surprising about this if you've ever owned one as many here have. But to make statements such as yours above indicates that you've never put much - if any - time behind the wheel of a hybrid. Thus your assumptions are at best guesses - and they're wrong. There are 10 yrs of driving experiences all over the internet. You need to leave the 20th Century and bring yourself up-to-date. C'mon ol' timer. This is a new era, it's not that scary.
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Posts: 1,405
    Keep the "opinions" coming Bob. Sometimes Engineers (or even car nuts like Car and Driver) get stuck on raw data. All things being equal, the single most important input on maximizing the hybrid FE in my non-engineering opinion (I am an engineer, but not an expert in automotive like the many participants here) is the driver.

    Most people don't want to hear all the arguments for the details about the tech but simply want to know does it work and will I be able to make it work like it's supposed it.
  • bigtbigt Posts: 413
    Found this article. Interesting that the gas engine always starts in a Hybrid just for a second or two to perform a series of computer checks. I am getting close but it is tough when I look at all of the goodies coming out in the 2010 MKZ. However there is a great Hybrid appeal when you look at all of the trips down the block, across the street, and the DC stop and go. Getting close to the pre-order!

    http://auto.howstuffworks.com/ford-escape.htm
  • kdhspyder, You don't read and/or comprehend my posts. I'm saying a hybrid works best in high-usage, high-mileage situations, by far. This is economics. You have to pay many thousands of dollars extra for the hybrid electric motors/batteries. Also, you don't seem to realize what a basic ICE can do with MPG if you add an efficient tranny, direct injection, raise compression, reduce internal friction, reduce engine size, add an aluminum roof, etc. Maybe the best way to explain it to a car salesman like yourself (because I give up) is to just refer you to the UCS article: UCS report showing non-hybrid tech can increase MPG -- click here

    I have nothing against car salesman like kdhspyder in general, its just that you can't argue on the facts with many of them, as I've seen over the years, and they aren't automotive engineers. No surprise kdhspyder doesn't read or comprehend my posts here.
  • bigtbigt Posts: 413
    I bet it does not have these. Read that Mecury is expecting the HB Milan to be 6% of Milan sales. I wonder if I really want to give up all the MKZ luxury items...
  • bigt, Great HowStuffWorks article there. Very clear. Looks like the Escape's system adds 500 lbs to a normal Escape. Wow. I think the Fusion Hybrid only plumps up by 400 lbs, so there is some progress there at least.

    I hope you do order one, because you sound like you don't mind paying the extra cash for the hybrid's electric motors and batteries, and I'll bet you wouldn't mind reducing the foreign oil dependency in North America. All great reasons to buy a hybrid if you've got the bucks.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    All of those advances in the ICE which you note are being worked on in parallel at testing facilities all over the world. They are part of the normal curve of improvement in drivetrains.

    Yes they will all work to improve efficencies and fuel economy. But on top of all these improvements if you add an efficient hybrid system it's like multiplying the results by a coefficient of 1.3 to 1.4.

    The new FFH and the new G3 Prius and the Lexus 250h are all examples of this. The ICE improvements, tranny efficiencies and new designs are then improved by 30-40% by the addition of the respective hybrid systems.

    This is your blind spot that you continue to ignore.
  • kdhspyder, You miss the point yet again. The UCS article I cited with a link in my post above.explains tech that is here now, most of which has been here for the last 10 years or so. Its not the "normal curve of improvement" as you put it. Something that is in common current usage, and has been for years, is old stuff. Just refer to the UCS article and I won't argue with you anymore. Futility.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,851
    Guys -
    Take it elsewhere.... like, to another site. No one here wants to watch you trade barbs. We're interested in the 2010 hybrid Fusion/Milan.

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  • kirstie_h, I wasn't the one trading barbs. I was pointing out facts that are relevant to the Fusion Hybrid. I don't appreciate your accusatory statement, and you owe me an apology.
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,539
    Coldcranker, I tried to drop a hint, you didn't get it, now your going off on Kirstie. She's exactly right, the recent series of posts with you two had very little to do the FFHs, more about who did or didn't understand this or that. Not relevant here.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,851
    I don't, but if you want to discuss, you are welcome to email me any time.

    This forum is for discussion of the upcoming Fusion/Milan hybrid only.

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  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    It doesn't help to be thin-skinned on these forums. Occasionally, I have gotten reprimanded for an interchange on one forum or another. Of course I thought I was "right," but I also know that if a moderator is saying "hey guys, take it outside," that is a signal for me to let it be.

    No moderator owes anyone an apology for trying to take care of their responsibilities here. And all of us must realize from time to time that print messages without facial expression, intonation and other body language is easily misconstrued. Most times, it is not worth trying to "set straight." Don't take it personally, but do let it go.
  • kirstie_h can't name any instances of me "trading barbs" as she put it. I can disagree with anyone posting on this forum. Its my right, and I'll do it. If we all agreed, it wouldn't be any fun. But I guess I could put a smiley-face icon on the end of every sentence..... or not.

    She is right this is about Fusion Hybrids. I will therefore go back to my question that I had before the Toyota salesman kdhsypder starting getting Toyota-selling into these Fusion Hybrid discussions (I'm hoping someone has some concrete answers, not sales-talk fluff):

    I was wondering why the Camry hybrid has such pathetic MPG compared to the Fusion Hybrid. It could be a more powerful, more advanced battery pack, and better engine control software in the Fusion vs. the less capable Camry. Specifics would be nice.

    Anybody have any idea why the Camry gets beat so badly in this critical area for a hybrid? How did Ford engineers create a superior product?
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,627
    The next-generation hybrid system features:

    New 2.5-liter 4-cylinder engine (155 horsepower/136 lb.-ft. of torque) running the proven Atkinson cycle mated to an electronically-controlled continuously variable transmission or e-CVT.

    Intake Variable Cam Timing (iVCT), which allows the vehicle to more seamlessly transition from gas to electric mode and vice-versa. The spark and cam timing are varied according to the engine load to optimize efficiency and emissions.

    Enhanced electronic throttle control reduces airflow on shutdowns, reducing fueling needs on restarts.

    Wide-band lambda sensor analyzes the air-fuel ratio and adjusts the lean/rich mixture accordingly to keep the system in balance and to minimize emissions.
    A new smaller, lighter nickel-metal hydride battery has been optimized to produce 20 percent more power. Improved chemistry allows the battery to be run at a higher temperature and it is cooled using cabin air.

    An added variable voltage converter boosts the voltage to the traction battery to operate the motor and generator more efficiently.

    A new high-efficiency converter provides 14 percent increased output to accommodate a wider array of vehicle features.

    Smarter climate control system monitors cabin temperature and only runs the gas engine as needed to heat the cabin; it also includes an electric air conditioning compressor to further minimize engine use.

    The regenerative brake system captures the energy normally lost through friction in braking and stores it. Nearly 94 percent energy recovery is achieved by first delivering full regenerative braking followed by friction brakes during city driving.
  • Coldcranker...It is my understanding that the software that controls when the ICE cuts on and off has been improved in the Fusion. This way, the Fusion can run longer on the electric motor and it cuts off the ICE quicker when you take your foot off the gas. The Fusion might also get more energy from braking than the Camry.

    As far as the thread about when the Fusion will make it into the showrooms, does anyone know more than March, before April?

    WLN
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    Let it go. Your point is not worth it. Why do you have to be right to anyone else if you know you are? Someone asked you to move back to the forum topic. Please don't take it personally. There is nothing to defend.

    Now, back to the hybrids. Of course specifics would be nice, but really, it stands to reason. The Fusion set-up is several years newer. It should be better. The Camry mileage isn't "pathetic" by comparison. It is less, but Camry is soon due for a new generation that will likely leapfrog the Fusion when it comes out.

    Remember too, everything is a tradeoff. The Fusion has less hp than Camry, which probably helps with EPA mpg. It does have a more advanced battery pack and better engine control software. The Fusion is also 200-300 lbs heavier. Now, if you look at the real world test of the mid-size hybrids in C&D, the Fusion beat Camry in mpg, but not nearly by the gap EPA suggests. Some of that "gap softening" may be due to moving that extra baggage in real world comparison tests.

    Competition keeps the product developing steadily. It's great to see all these choices appearing with even more regularity.
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,539
    You don't read what you write. Pure barb-trading here:

    "I have nothing against car salesman like kdhspyder in general, its just that you can't argue on the facts with many of them, as I've seen over the years, and they aren't automotive engineers. No surprise kdhspyder doesn't read or comprehend my posts here. "

    Not one word about the FFH.
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Posts: 1,405
    I was wondering why the Camry hybrid has such pathetic MPG compared to the Fusion Hybrid

    And this type of question leads people to talk about Toyota, not the Ford.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Posts: 2,743
    It's a valid question though...how'd Ford top Camry so decisively? How will Toyota respond? They've just been SERIOUSLY one-uped, and the Fusion's numbers demand a response. So far all Toyota has done is try to corner the battery market to keep other hybrids down, at least that's my read. Now that Ford has proven that Toyota isn't necessarily the hybrid king anymore, what can Toyota do to respond to the Fusion?
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 5,860
    This discussion is for discussing the upcoming Fusion/Milan hybrid not Ford vs Toyota.

    Let's get back on track here please. Thanks for your cooperation and participation.

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  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Actually, the comparisons are helpful, because these two cars will be competing.

    It's helpful for potential buyers to know about both the TCH and the FFH.

    In regard to "how did 'Yota get one-upped?" the answer is the model year.

    The technology in the TCH is about 4 years old, from road-testable car to now. That means the design took place longer ago than that.

    If Toyota wanted to do a whole brand-new TCH with the HSD technology they have right now which will be coming out in the new Prius, then the TCH would likely challenge or surpass the FFH.

    The FFH is impressive on it's own merits, however, Toyota's situation notwithstanding.

    They will certainly "steal" some sales from the TCH.
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