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Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan Hybrid

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  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 5,890
    This is not a "comparison" discussion, so let's not turn it into one, OK? That's not to say that references to other vehicles for comparison purposes are strictly out, but you DO see how easy it is to get off track.

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  • Oh, by the way!! Does anyone have a better estimate on the showroom date for the FFH than "March, before April"?

    Any estimates on the number available for the initial release, or with in the first few months?

    Wyatt
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Yep Ford has new hybrid technology and a new ICE and new features. It should trump the existing models, that's what new models do. It's currently the leader with the the state of the art incorporated into it.

    Good job by Ford. At some time in the future some other vehicle makers will one-up Ford and the progress will continue onward.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    The only thing I can add here is that the vehicle is not on the roads yet so all that anyone has to go by is the data that's been published and few tests. Most of these tests immediately draw comparos including Edmunds own. So that's what people are discussing.

    When the vehicles hit the roads and buyers begin to drive them the data should be more real world experiences. Then that's what people will be discussing.
  • bigtbigt Posts: 413
    Found in the spec that the Milan does have heated seats. After this week in DC here I am not about to purchase anything that does not have that feature. I am also having a calc done about the trade between my 2007 mkz and the 2010 mkz.

    Where is the best place to sell a car these days?
  • Do I have a blind spot here or is the 2010 Milan no longer on the Mercury site?

    Also, any idea when we can get some idea on the pricing and options on the fusion? I keep getting the idea they may be thinking about delaying production. We knew more about the 09 Mazda 6 by this point before it's release.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    Fusion Hybrid winner over Camry Hybrid. Motor Trend Mag also chose the Fusion Hybrid over the Camry Hybrid. right along with Car and Driver..
    http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/car_shopping/green_machines/2010_f- ord_fusion_hybrid_short_take_road_test

    The Fusion already has a great reputation for reliability/quality/fit/finish. Now with this on top of it.. Fusion sales will increase in the coming years is my prediction. :shades:
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,598
    Only problem - sounds like limited volumes of the Fusion Hybrid will be available :mad:
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Fusion sales should increase and rightfully so. But Ford is still severely limited by battery pack supply. That's why they are only offering them in limited 'hot spot markets'.

    Their new battery supplier has to get up and cranking soon, very soon.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    25,000 is not a small number - all things considered.
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,598
    25,000 won't allow Ford enough to market them normally. Only for the hot markets, at elevated prices.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,722
    toyota controls the hybrid battery market.
    ford (and everyone else) will have to catch up.
    i am sure when ford was trying to sell a million f series in a year, hybrid battery numbers were not a big deal.
  • Does anyone know if you can order the 2010 Fusion/Milan Hybrid yet? Any ideas about how to go about doing so and still keep the price neogotiation under control? Is there an option sheet out anywhere? Given the limited production, would it increase one's probability of getting one to order either a Fusion or Milan? Thanks.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    The dealer has all of the options and ordering info, but at this point you're probably at their mercy concerning price. Expect MSRP or higher.
  • bigtbigt Posts: 413
    This week I am going over to my dealer to perform a pre-order on the Milan HB.

    I love being on the leading(bleeding) edge!
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Posts: 1,405
    Do you think there is a chance the tax credits may be adjusted under Obama? Might be a reason to wait. Hopefully they will take the 60,000 vehicle limit off.
  • bigtbigt Posts: 413
    My dealer said the pre-order is at MSRP. I bet once they are out in the dealers they will go for more than that. This is why this week, I am diving in!
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,890
    Wow, you have a lot of faith buying a car before you've had a chance to drive it! You are braver than I am.

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  • gregg_vw said: "Some of that "gap softening" may be due to moving that extra baggage in real world comparison tests. "

    Not correct. Fact correction here, thats all, for our readers. gregg_vw, don't take this personally as you have in the past. Get over it. ....The EPA tests are real. The EPA MPG tests do take into account the extra mass naturally, and they also take into account aerodynamics, BTW I've noticed a lack of understanding of how to interpret the EPA MPG tests when evaluating the Fusion Hybrid vs. the Toyota Camry. Those EPA MPG tests consist of two representative cycles of driving: one city-style, and one mostly highway cruising. To compare car-to-car, one must use the same test for each car, and that same test is the EPA MPG test. For example, my 4,000 lb Freestyle can easily get 31 MPG when cruising steady at 52 mph. But, I can't say it "beat" a Ford Focus, just because the Focus driver had some stop-n-go mixed in and got 27 MPG. The same test. Key point.
  • kirstie_h said "Wow, you have a lot of faith buying a car before you've had a chance to drive it! You are braver than I am. "

    I don't think he is brave or stupid. (At least not for that reason!) Car and Driver, and Motor Trend wring a vehicle out better than anybody could visiting a salesman and test driving the car around the block. I've often said, to really find the gems in car engineering out there, don't rely on how you felt the car was going over the speed bump outside the dealer's parking lot. Not a good indicator. Also, I think Edmunds said the Milan/Fusion Hybrid was pretty good, too.
  • Thanks, explorerx4 (his post is great and repeated below in italics for convenience), thats what I was looking for, basically. I was asking why the Fusion Hybrid was able to achieve such high performance (MPG and accel together) compared to what we know can be done with Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive in a Camry. It helps to look at the differences to really see whats going on here. The Fusion Hybrid appears to benefit from an accumulation of all the little stuff. Listing each one helps the readers here, not just stating they exist.

    That said, I doubt if the engine itself is really much more efficient than the Camry's gas engine, since I know Toyota put a lot into the efficiency there (same Atkinson, some internal ring friction/mass improvements, etc.). The iVCT or good lambda sensor are not unique to Ford either.

    The part about the electronic amp drivers/convertors may be a more significant area for gain. As for the battery statements below, there may be some energy savings in those battery packs being able to receive a charge (from regen braking, etc.) more efficiently, so some of the battle involves not wasting energy when charging a battery. I've heard numbers like around 50% of the energy is lost to heat when charging a battery! Any gain there would be good. The 94% figure stated below is simply the amount of energy captured from braking before trying to stick the energy into the battery, so it is misleading a bit.

    Maybe a lot of the secret of the Fusion Hybrid's success is in the statement below about the enhanced electronic throttle causing less fuel needed at startup. (Those Ford engineers are good.) I've always wondered about how much extra gas you waste by starting/stopping the engine over and over again. If the Fusion Hybrid gas engine had direct injection, then there might be another small gain in MPG at start-up. Speaking of all this Fusion Hybrid start/stop stuff, I know Toyota specifies 5w-30 engine oil in their hybrids, a thicker oil than the 5w-20 oil Toyota puts in their non-hybrid vehicles to prevent ring-sticking on start/stop cycles. Ford has typically been specifying 5w-20 in their vehicles, but I wonder if they are worried about warranty claims for sticking rings, too, in a start/stop engine like this.

    explorerx4 said: "
    The next-generation hybrid system features:
    New 2.5-liter 4-cylinder engine (155 horsepower/136 lb.-ft. of torque) running the proven Atkinson cycle mated to an electronically-controlled continuously variable transmission or e-CVT.
    Intake Variable Cam Timing (iVCT), which allows the vehicle to more seamlessly transition from gas to electric mode and vice-versa. The spark and cam timing are varied according to the engine load to optimize efficiency and emissions.
    Enhanced electronic throttle control reduces airflow on shutdowns, reducing fueling needs on restarts.
    Wide-band lambda sensor analyzes the air-fuel ratio and adjusts the lean/rich mixture accordingly to keep the system in balance and to minimize emissions.
    A new smaller, lighter nickel-metal hydride battery has been optimized to produce 20 percent more power. Improved chemistry allows the battery to be run at a higher temperature and it is cooled using cabin air.
    An added variable voltage converter boosts the voltage to the traction battery to operate the motor and generator more efficiently.
    A new high-efficiency converter provides 14 percent increased output to accommodate a wider array of vehicle features.
    Smarter climate control system monitors cabin temperature and only runs the gas engine as needed to heat the cabin; it also includes an electric air conditioning compressor to further minimize engine use.
    The regenerative brake system captures the energy normally lost through friction in braking and stores it. Nearly 94 percent energy recovery is achieved by first delivering full regenerative braking followed by friction brakes during city driving. "
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    I have no problem with anything you say, coldcranker. I was just referring to the Motor Trend/Car&Driver/Automobile/Road&Track-type comparison tests that have been issued lately, given the Fusion is now available for comparison. I note only that these tests have not found a significant difference in mpg between the Fusion and Camry hybrids. I believe Consumer Reports found no real difference as well on their driving cycles. That does not negate the EPA tests, and certainly it must be that under some conditions, the Fusion will do better mpg-wise. The auto press tests are just another possible consideration when buying a car. For me, the driving dynamics are what really separate the Camry and Fusion. The Fusion is described as fun to drive. I look forward to trying it.
  • I stopped by my local Ford dealer today to get info about the FFH. I was told that I was the first person to ask about the FFH. I hope that isn't really true. They only pre-ordered one FFH, maxed out with all features ($32,450). It is due in the showroom by the end of February.

    According to this dealer, the tax credit is available if you buy or order a FFH by the dates mentioned in the news release.
  • You're kidding. What area of North America are you in? With all the magazine coverage, I can't believe there isn't some kind of semi-rush for this thing at least. And they only preordered one!
  • Memphis, TN

    I'm going back this weekend when I have more time to ask detailed questions about options. During the short visit yesterday, I told them more about the FFH than they told me.
  • Incredible. Somebody needs to bring them a copy of all the major magazines, with articles highlighted, and a list of websites for them to enlighten themselves with.

    Makes me curious about how our many Ford dealerships around here in the Denver area are doing with this Ford Fusion info. (BTW, I lived in Memphis as a kid from '68 to '73, as if anyone cared. ;-)
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Ford has already announced that production is going to be limited to 25000 units annually due to lack of battery supply. 2000 a month divided over the total of Ford stores in NA means less than one per month on average at each store. When they sell that one it's gone!!

    At most stores this will be a non-issue if they get one every 6 weeks or so. They can't run the store on one vehicle sale per month. The stores have to run on truck sales and non-hybrid Fusion sales and Escape sales.

    There might be one person per store that has any interest to tie up his/her time to take an order for the one vehicle being made for them that month.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    Who knows how this will go at this point. Hybrid sales dipped late last year with gas getting cheap again. Even Prius sales went down. Not too long ago, Ford had incentives on the Escape Hybrid, and wasn't finding many buyers for the Mercury version (previous model). The FFH could sell well, being so new and hyped, but maybe after the first 10,000 or so, level off. Who knows? We'll see.

    Does that 25,000 include the Milan as well? I might be interested, but have no interest in paying list price. Been burned on that before. So I will wait and see. If it sells out, fine. If not, I may buy one.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,018
    Do you suppose that battery number is for all the Ford hybrids? The way the sales are going around here I don't think the hybrids will be a sales issue. The largest Ford dealer in San Diego is selling 20% of 2007 sales figures. I know they laid off a bunch of mechanics. A good friend was one of them. He is having a heck of a time finding a job. If Ford treats the Fusion hybrid like the Escape hybrid you will be paying a HUGE premium over a comparably equipped non hybrid Fusion. Looks like Edmund's has the pricing. With the 502A package discounts you are looking at $32k. You can buy the AWD V6 Fusion loaded for $24k. The FFH will only be for those that nothing but the latest will do. And they will pay dearly for that distinction.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    The only time the Escape Hybrid had a HUGE premium was last summer and fall when gas was through the roof. Right now, huge premium means no sale.
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