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2010 Ford Taurus

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Comments

  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,739
    You think reputation and history are more important to resale value than rental fleet dumping, big rebates, overproduction and poor designs? Sorry, but I don't.

    I don't expect it to be top of the list for depreciation, but I do expect it to be average and in line with the other full sized family sedans and not below average.

    I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
  • marsha7marsha7 Posts: 3,676
    Actually, while your point is well-taken, I firmly believe that it will depreciate rapidly simply because it is an American car made by UAW labor, and is usually severely overpriced from Day 1...so, since they were rarely worth their MSRP from the git-go, they will depreciate rapidly "regressing to the mean", or, dropping down to what their real value should have been anyway...

    I admire your faith that "this time it's different" except that, to me, it is no different, and never will be different, than any other Big 3 car for the last 40 years, Corvette as the one exception...

    This car will drop like a rock, and MKS, being even more overpriced, will have a higher percentage drop than the Taurus...that is my solid prediction...

    Again, akirby, I really do hope your opinion prevails on this, but 40 years of virtually 100% "Big 3 rock dropping depreciation" history will lean against you pretty hard...you see this as different, I see it as more of the same, and what will continue for the next 40 years...
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,739
    If you think Ford is still doing business like they did in the past then you must have been living under a rock. Whether it works or not will have to be proven by the customers over the next couple of years, but they're doing the right things (finally).
  • ....they're doing the right things (finally).

    ===================================

    I agree that things really have changed and D3 cars are better than ever before. I hope, for the sake of the U.S. economy, that light vehicle manufacturing succeeds here.

    The consequences of failure are scary to think about and I have a feeling at least Ford and Chrysler/Fiat will be with for a long time to come.
  • marsha7marsha7 Posts: 3,676
    I am not arguing that they are operating differently than in the past...you are correct on that point...but their "new" way of operating will probably NOT change the way their vehicle depreciate, that is all I am saying...just because they don't overproduce or sell to rental fleets, IMO, will not affect the way their products depreciate one whit...what it DOES mean is that they may not have to put $10K rebates on them to move them out as the next year's models come into dealers, but as far as vehicle value, they will drop, and drop quickly they will...while us mavens here will analyze the minutest detail because we are car buffs, the general market could care less, and, s;eep well, a $35K Taurus will be under $20K (maybe far under) two years after it sells as a new car...in one year you will be shocked at how little they are worth, simply because the market will not see them any differently as any other American car...

    I still hope you are right, but I am betting my 25 cents that you will miss this boat by a country mile...
  • podpod Posts: 176
    According to edmunds specs the 2009 Taurus SE had a curb weight of 3741 pounds; the 2010 SE Taurus (NOT the SHO, Not the limited, but the base model) weighs 4015. What changes explain the gain of almost 300#. I know it is bigger but the weight of the increased volume would be minor (the skin will weigh the same roughly as the interior space increases).
    I am disappointed that the tauted features of the upscale models seem like doo-dads to me. BLIS, sync, massaging seats, improved cruise control, etc. I could live without these gladly. Motorized driver and passenger seats--why? Is it a big deal to reach down and lift a lever?
    Of note the 2000 Taurus weighed 3333#.
    I, for one, seek value in a car which means a good price and good fuel economy and good reliability. Weight is the enemy of fuel economy. The taurus has been reliable and a good value but it seems to have gorged itself during the off season and over time. That is a 21% weight gain over the past decade 3333 to 4015. Pretty soon this car will get diabetes and hypertension.
    Where is all the weight?
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,423
    I think all of you but Allen are missing something here. Yes, Ford products have depreciated markedly of late, and historically as well (I'll get to a personal example), but this has not always been true for all models in all times. It wasn't that long ago that big SUVs commanded very good resale prices. There were years when the Explorer was #1 and quite popular as a used vehicle. Trucks are another example. Even today, though the F150 takes an initial hit, well-equipped used trucks in good condition still command fairly good prices. For example, a 2000 F150 4X4 extended cab V8 typically equipped still sells for $7,000 (I have one, so I know). That's a lot of cash really for a 10 year old vehicle with anywhere from 120K to 150K miles. The Explorer of a few years ago and the F150 illustrate that if you don't get your high sales numbers from fleet dumping and huge rebates (because people actually covet the conveyance), long-term resale will be fine. Most buyers did not pay more than mid-20s for either vehicle back then. I am old of course (in my 50s) and I remember well when a new car costing $2500 was worth $100 eight to ten years later. My first car was a loaded 1962 Galaxy which I bought in 1970 for $100. I sold it a year later for $125 (after spiffing it up), but the point is, some Fords do not depreciate like they used to in the bad old days, and Ford is doing the right thing with the Taurus by not dumping more than people actually want into the overall vehicle fleet.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,739
    If you go to an auction and there are 50 Tauruses there, fresh from Hertz with high mileage, you don't think the bidding prices will be significantly lower than if there were only 5? Same with retail prices - supply and demand. Keep the supply in line or slightly lower than demand and prices go up. That is economics 101 and it applies to Ford and every other retailer.

    The price of a 3 year old Taurus is DIRECTLY affected by the price of a new one. Would you buy a 3 year old vehicle for $20K if brand new ones were selling for $25K? Of course not, so the used prices go down accordingly.

    I also think you underestimate the general public's opinion of Ford - it has changed considerably after the GM/Chrysler bailouts and Fusion Hybrid introduction.

    What has impressed me most about Ford's business plan is that they bit the bullet when they needed to - closed plants and bought out UAW workers to cut costs and reduce excess capacity. And when sales took a nose dive they cut production even more - resisting the temptation to simply throw cash on the hood to sell more cars which would have hurt resale values even more.

    Like I said - this all hinges on whether the public likes the Taurus enough to buy it without huge discounts. And I think they will - to the tune of at least 60k/year which isn't bad in a 12M unit market. That's equivalent to almost 100K 2 years ago when the market was 17M. And given the shared platform and drivetrains that should yield a tidy profit.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,739
    C'mon, Gregg - you can't bring up examples and facts that contradict opinions......
  • jpp5862jpp5862 NCPosts: 371
    Probably a dumb question, but for all the hype of the 2010 Taurus I haven't seen or heard anything about a new 2010 Sable. I have to believe they've created one that is just like the Taurus, but even at the auto show last winter I didn't see anything on it. Just looking to confirm the 2010 Sable will be out there and mimic the changes in the Taurus.
  • There is not a 2010 Sable. Mercury has no equivalent offering to the Taurus. Lincoln has the MKS of course.

    The future of Ford lies in next year's Fiesta and the next generation Focus and Explorer. 2010/11 may bring an end to GM without another bail-out and if it does, all bets are off because Ford will clean up.

    IF GM survives the next 24 months (50/50 at best) then there will be a real battle because we still have too many automakers and the cars from India and China will be here in a few short years.
  • jpp5862jpp5862 NCPosts: 371
    Thanks for the info Dodgeman. While it seems odd to think that Mercury doesn't have a Sable, I have to admit it makes sense.
  • I am a little confused. We have a group of people that, by all data presented, have yet to actually touch/feel/sit in/drive this vehicle, yet seem like they have already pinned its value in line with an '87 Yugo. So the data we do have so far from the automotive press seems to be at least encouragingly positive (actually its mostly glowing but anyway), and it would imply they actually drove the car.
    Yes there are trade-offs. Yes if you want the limited edition super high output model there is a price premium. Can we try it first and see if we like it before we doom it to a fate worse than Hyundai Excels?
  • That is a 21% weight gain over the past decade 3333 to 4015. Pretty soon this car will get diabetes and hypertension.

    ...while the 4 cylinder Honda Accord "blossomed" from 2378 lbs to 3367 lbs, or about 1000 lbs difference. I hope it has some Lipitor handy...

    So they added side impact air bags, seat mounted air bags, massaging multi-contour seats, adaptive cruise control, 19" wheels (that I think are worthless but w/e), power this that and the next thing (Taurus in the 90s could still have crank windows, oh the horror) and a lot more interior and trunk space.

    I agree though that there are gains to be made here as composite technologies mature. The Lotus Elise is a great example.
  • That is a 21% weight gain over the past decade 3333 to 4015. Pretty soon this car will get diabetes and hypertension.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ----------------------
    ...while the 4 cylinder Honda Accord "blossomed" from 2378 lbs to 3367 lbs, or about 1000 lbs difference. I hope it has some Lipitor handy...

    ===========================================

    The Accord hasn't weighed 2378 pounds since the mid-1980s.

    2000 Honda LX I4 auto: 3075 lbs.
    2010 Honda LX I4 auto: 3289 lbs. A gain of 6.96%

    2000 Ford Taurus SE auto: 3368 lbs.
    2010 Ford Taurus SE auto: 4015 lbs. A gain of 19.21%
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,739
    It makes perfect sense that Ford is finally focusing on Ford and not putting out Mercury clones just to keep the L/M dealers alive. It's a simple matter of priorities - Ford first, then Lincoln (just starting), then Mercury.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,739
    I don't know if those numbers are accurate, but part of the weight gain had to be from the stiffened front clip to handle the ecoboost power in the SHO, MKS, Flex and MKT. The early test models just fell apart due to the torque. The rest is probably due to new features and crash protection. If those numbers are accurate.
  • I think FoMoCo should play up the quietness and safety of the new Taurus in a marketing campaign similar to Buick's "Quiet-Tuning" of a couple years ago.

    From all I've heard and read, the new Taurus is one of the quietest cars on the road and I'm certain the safety ratings will be stellar.

    The silhouette of the 2010 Taurus also inspires safety with the high beltline. The car does have a lot going for it and Ford has not been advertising in the midwest where many traditional buyers are located. There's still a ton of Crown Vics and Grand Marquis' around here and some of these drivers will want another full-size Ford in the next year or two.

    I plan to dump my Lucerne next year. The Taurus has the new LaCrosse beat and that is going to be Buick's top model for 2011.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,739
    I've seen (what I assumed were) national ads for the Taurus all over the place. There are 2 or 3 versions but they're all around the ecoboost SHO model. Maybe you're just not watching the right TV shows? ;)
  • marsha7marsha7 Posts: 3,676
    "The price of a 3 year old Taurus is DIRECTLY affected by the price of a new one. Would you buy a 3 year old vehicle for $20K if brand new ones were selling for $25K? Of course not, so the used prices go down accordingly.

    I also think you underestimate the general public's opinion of Ford - it has changed considerably after the GM/Chrysler bailouts and Fusion Hybrid introduction."

    I quoted that part of your post because you are right on that...I am probably guilty of underestimating the public opinion of Ford (or you may be giving them much more credit than the general public really does, as Ford may not be on the public's radar screen at all)...

    You also mentioned pricing...I think that unless one gets the lower end Taurus, the prices "out the door" will still scare many people away, esp if they break into the mid-30K's...I think Ford is trying, to their credit, to try and go upwardly mobile, but it remains to be seen if the public is ready to "allow" them to do so by purchasing their products...remember, folks may love the Taurus, but if the price scares them away, the "love" of the car means nothing...

    As I have stated, I hope your view prevails, but I am betting my 25 cents that you won't, simply because I think you are wildly optimistic...or, as Seinfeld would say, "Not that there's anything wrong with that"...

    And, while some cars in the past DID hold some value, compared to the entire market at large, those vehicles were not enough to really matter...I would venture, without ANY scientific info at all, that over 80% of Big 3 vehicles lose value like a rock falling in the air...for the few that don't, well, I hardly see that as convincing evidence, more like a fluke...

    That is why one side of a coin has heads, and the other has tails...we see the same coin, but what we actually see is quite different...
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,739
    I understand your point, but it's based on nothing more than overall brand performance without looking at the details. As Gregg already pointed out - it's not the brand because there are individual examples of vehicles that did quite well on sales, transaction prices and resale value. If you understand the causes (which I already pointed out) and you look at what Ford is doing differently then it should be readily apparent why I'm cautiously (not wildly) optimistic.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,739
    5,077 - up 60% from a year ago. Hard to tell how many of these were 2010 vs. 2009 models but as of today there were no 2009 Tauruses on any of the dealer lots near me and only 2-4 2010 models. We'll have to wait and see what the numbers look like next month but that is encouraging.

    Overall Ford was down 6% (14% retail). Toyota down 16%, Honda down 23%. Chrysler down 40%. GM down 45%.

    I don't know what more proof you could ask for that Ford's public perception is greatly improved and mostly positive now.
  • marsha7marsha7 Posts: 3,676
    " then it should be readily apparent why I'm cautiously (not wildly) optimistic."...as long as you are CAUTIOUSLY optimistic, I will lean a smidgen more your way... ;) ;)

    " don't know what more proof you could ask for that Ford's public perception is greatly improved and mostly positive now."...remember, you are comparing Ford with 2 bankrupt companies, GM & C, where virtually EVERYONE is reluctant to buy from a company that is almost guaranteed not to be here in 6-12 months...on that basis, sure, folks see Ford in a different light...but will that transform into profitable sales is the bigger question...

    Good luck to your view...as much as I dispute you, I want Ford to survive, win and prosper...I am just a little less optimistic as you are, that's all...
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,739
    I don't get it. Ford isn't just outperforming GM and Chrysler - they're outperforming Honda and Toyota as well. Consistently. They're gaining market share. What more can you expect?
  • Ford isn't just outperforming GM and Chrysler...

    ===========================================

    As long as oil stays under $75/barrel, Ford should be fine. The F-series flat out spanked the Chevy Silverado and Dodge Ram in September. That should continue and reasonably priced oil ($65 to $70/barrel) will allow Ford to make some money next year.

    None other than Goldman Sachs is predicting $90/barrel next summer and $95 next fall! We're swimming in oil and the economy cannot support those prices. One of the biggest risks to a 2010 recovery is expensive oil. There's still plenty of other problems but now at least we know what they are.

    The U.S. economy cannot afford $3.50/gallon fuel next year. It will kill any chances of a recovery. The oil futures market is one of the biggest scams out there and we need to be aware of it.
  • berriberri Posts: 4,254
    Isn't it funny how Wall Street like Goldman claim "competitive market forces" but seem to always make "correct" predictions on things like commodities. They are making millions through speculative scamming of America, but are smart to make large political contributions to Washington.
  • sandman_6472sandman_6472 Coral Springs, FLPosts: 2,736
    Why can't Ford have the same marketing campaign with their Taurus...and all their models...like GM...put your $ where your mouth is. That would show the general public how much Ford "believes" in their products. A bit suspicious as to why Ford hasn't jumped on this publicity stunt...leads me to believe the commitment to how far Ford products have come is all words...and I wouldn't spend my hard earned $ on their cars.

    Having owned Toyota's/Nissan's/Honda's/ Mazda's for many years, think that's where I'll keep my car $ in the near future. One last thing, working for the government, we hire your "average person" and I went out to the parking lot the other day to do a random survey on makes of cars. From what I observed, 85% were foreign cars & the rest was split between the big 3. One thing we all must have is a dependable car, no if's, and's or but's. So from my observations, the big 3 have a "long way" to go with the American public. Folks might want to "buy American" but when they spend their $ on transportation, the foreign brands rule and will in the forseeable future no matter what. Most folks prefer the reliability & driveability of the foreign brands...period!

    So slam me all you want to but it is what it is. So all you American car makers, make your cars like the foreign brands do with the same reliability, price structure & fun to drive quotient and watch what happens. And for G-d's sake, make cars "people want to buy"...make cars the American public really wants...and "needs", and then you'll dominate like y'all did 30 to 40 years ago!

    The Sandman :sick: :shades:

    2014 Hyundai Tuscon SE/2005 Mazda 3s/2008 Hyundai Accent GLS/2009 Nissan Versa SL hatch

  • Why can't Ford have the same marketing campaign with their Taurus...and all their models...like GM...put your $ where your mouth is. That would show the general public how much Ford "believes" in their products. A bit suspicious as to why Ford hasn't jumped on this publicity stunt...leads me to believe the commitment to how far Ford products have come is all words...and I wouldn't spend my hard earned $ on their cars

    Really? I thought it was when they didn't take any government bailout money to restructure themselves, for me that was a moderately sized tip off, or that they didn't go bankrupt.

    Having owned Toyota's/Nissan's/Honda's/ Mazda's for many years, think that's where I'll keep my car $ in the near future.

    So if you've made that decision already, how much is it worth for any other company to try to "win" you as a customer?

    From what I observed, 85% were foreign cars & the rest was split between the big 3. One thing we all must have is a dependable car, no if's, and's or but's. So from my observations, the big 3 have a "long way" to go with the American public.

    I know from your other postings in other forums that you know more about statistics than that. Ford has a market share in the mid-teens (higher in some segments, lower in others), and GM is about the same. Together they are about 30% of vehicles sold.

    Folks might want to "buy American" but when they spend their $ on transportation, the foreign brands rule and will in the foreseeable future no matter what.

    Everyone gets an opinion and a vote, and yours is no more or less valid than mine, but what does that have to do with the 2010 Ford Taurus?


    So slam me all you want to but it is what it is. So all you American car makers, make your cars like the foreign brands do with the same reliability, price structure & fun to drive quotient and watch what happens


    No slam, just trying to understand the motivation to put a rant about the auto industry in general in a a forum about a a car that has been very well received by every major media outlet, magazine, blog, and podcast from a company that took no government bailout, stayed solvent on its own, and has quality on par with its Japanese rivals based on multiple independent sources (CR, JDP, etc).

    Did you actually drive the 2010 Taurus? :sick:
  • alman08alman08 Posts: 282
    doing a random survey at a parking lot where you work doesn't give a good sampling for a valid statistic. perhaps it's one of the reason why this government fails because they hired people like you.

    like another person said, Ford's sale outperform many import brands, what more do you need to know? also, many rental companies now-a-day are buying imports, so it's not like the good ol' days when domestic auto sales were counting on the purchase from rental car companies.

    GM's guarantee program is a scammer, anyone with a decent brain could have told you that. Ford is already, in my opinion, doing what it can to earn back the trust of the American public, while it can't be succeeded overnight, the sales record is a good solid proof that it's slowly achieving its goal.

    You and your "average person" mentality is an upgraded. Ford is making cars that people want. Actually, they HAVE BEEN making cars that people want, but it'd take a keener eye to see it. Well, since you're at that lower level, I will give you an example... when there was a huge demand of trucks, Ford made the F150 and it was the best selling trucks. When there was a huge demand for SUV, Ford made that best selling Explorer. Whether you choose to believe this or not, Ford has been making cars that people want. As far as liability is concern, it's fair to say that the Big 3 were below par for many years. And as far as pricing is concern, we can all blame it on the UAW.

    One last thing... this is year 2009... it's not so much what the American public wants anymore in regard to automobiles... it's what the WORLD wants.
  • alman08alman08 Posts: 282
    Saw a few of them on the road this week, I'd have to say, these are very decent looking cars. But here is the thing... I sat in one at a dealer this week and as much as the interior was improved, I think the Hyundai Genesis is still a better value. Just my opinion.
    I made up my mind about getting a black or white limited next year, but now I have decided to wait to see the 2011 Genesis with the mild upgrade first.
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