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Chevrolet/Geo Metro

1787981838492

Comments

  • zaken1zaken1 Posts: 556
    Incidentally, I'm not familiar with the G10 model number you often mention. My engine is referred to as a VIN code 6; and that designation is used on all the 3 cylinder Metros (both Geo and Chevy). The TPS on my 1990 5 speed is marked 179950-6281. It also is marked 1.5--6.0 degrees. And I expect it will work with your ISC motor.

    They also used a different MAP sensor in the 1989-91 3 cyl models; which I find runs a bit richer (which I think would be a benefit in your situation). It has a thick plastic section where the mounting bolt goes through; while the later unit uses a metal plate in that location. It will mate with your harness plug. If someone installed the wrong MAP sensor, or if your engine's compression has now changed enough to have leaned out the mixture; the earlier MAP sensor would be worth trying. Mine is labeled 18590--60B00, and underneath that is another line reading 079800--1540.
  • shaggyman1shaggyman1 Posts: 28
    G10 refers to the ID number on engines of Suzuki manufacture, "G" being the engine type and "10" being the displacement, ie: G10 is the three cylinder 1.0L and G13 is the four 1.3L. 3rd digit is the model year, starting with "F" in 1985 and going to "Y" in 2000. The G series engines share many components, such as pistons, rings, bearings, etc.
    VIN code 6 refers to the fuel system (8th digit in your VIN), 6 being Throttle Body Fuel Injection- so a G10 with TFI.
    All of my TPS units appear to have only one switch (idle), rather than two, (the other being for WOT) but from what I've gleaned so far there is a third type with a continuous variable resistor as used on the 1.3 with port injection.
    I'll check on the MAP- I think mine is plastic, but I'm not sure.
  • annieluluannielulu Posts: 54
    Zaken1:

    I'm still fooling around with the car. I have checked EVERYTHING I could possibly think of and have hopefully narrowed it down to the COIL. I have been to auto parts stores here in Las Vegas. No one really seems to know what the correct coil should be. I bought one, but it was not the right one. Could you please tell me the correct coil manufacturer and part number. I checked the Rock Auto parts site, but I am still confused.

    Thanks very much.
  • zaken1zaken1 Posts: 556
    Hi again,

    The coil specification is not nearly as critical or restricted as your message implies. Virtually ANY 12 volt coil that has a 1.0-1.2 ohm primary, and is intended for electronic ignition applications will work on your car. I have used literally dozens of different types of coils on Metros; which work just fine.

    In the Rock auto site; both the Airtex # 5C1069 or the AC Delco # E536 would be suitable. Basically, any coil listed for US model 1993 Metro LSI convertibles will work. And these coils will all look like a tin can, with the high voltage terminal and the two primary terminals together on the same end. The only listings which are not suitable are the ones for the Canadian models or the non convertible US models. And that difference will be very obvious; because the unsuitable coils will be more oval than cylindrical, will have an external metal core surrounding the coil, and will have the high voltage terminal on the opposite end of the coil from the primary terminals; with the primary terminals located inside a plug that will not match with your harness wires.

    Now, there are other types of tin can style coils which are not suitable for the Metro; but they would not be listed as replacements for that vehicle. I believe that you already replaced the coil with a new one some time ago. If you think the parts clerk sold you a coil that was not intended for the Metro, and you can post all the numbers and markings, and brand information printed on the coil; I'll probably be able to confirm whether or not it is suitable.

    I understand that you have checked everything you could possibly think of; but you must bear in mind that you are dealing with electronic parts here, which cannot be checked without meters and test equipment. Because you do not have this equipment, there are many items in the electrical system that you are not able to check. And it is certainly among those items where the problem lies. Electricity may not be visible; but problems with this invisible force still can prevent the car from running, even when the parts physically look just great.

    Did the EVERYTHING that you have checked include the distributor pick up coil, and the ignition module, and what about the test I suggested for bypassing the ignition switch??? Pardon my skepticism; but since you are not skilled in this area, I would at least need to know the details of what you did, explained as completely as possible, in order to confirm in my own mind that each of these items is not the source of the problem. My experience has been that people all too frequently test an electronic component by performing some sort of rudimentary electical test that is either inappropriate, inconclusive, or is improperly applied; and then become totally confident that they have eliminated that part as the source of the problem.

    And that is why I am requesting full and complete disclosure.
  • Hello, I have a 93 geo metro; last week, the water temp was reading normal until I gave it some gas. The water temp guage redlined and I took my foot off the gas, water temp drops back to normal. Luckily only a block from home; it does the same thing in reverse. Have repalced the thermostat, check all the fuses, flushed the radiator and have good even flow. I'm thinking now it must be elecrtical, but I'm not sure if I need to relace the coolant temp sensor, or the temp switch or what I should do. Thanks for any help!
  • I'd suspect insufficient water pump delivery to the radiator for whatever reason.
    Are you sure you have good flow through the whole system?
    How fast does the temp change? If its only a few seconds, I'd suspect a bad electrical ground connection somewhere.

    Steve B.
  • zaken1zaken1 Posts: 556
    Four possibilities come to mind here: 1> The radiator may not have been filled all the way to the top; or it may have initially been filled; but the level dropped when the trapped air in the system came out, and the level was not subsequently rechecked directly at the radiator. So, because the radiator is not full, there is now no siphon action between the radiator and the reservoir; so the radiator cannot refill itself from the reservoir, which makes the motor overheat whenever any additional heat input is added, because there is now an insufficient amount of coolant in the radiator.

    2> The cooling system is filled with 100% pure coolant; instead of the 50-50 mixture of coolant and distilled water which it is designed to use. Pure undiluted coolant cannot transfer heat well, and thus must have water mixed with it, in order for it to be able to transfer the amount of heat which the engine generates when it accelerates.

    3>The electric radiator fan has stopped working; which leaves the engine on the verge of overheating whenever you accelerate. You should be able to hear and see the fan run whenever the temperature gauge goes above about 3/4 of the way up. If the fan does not run when the engine gets that hot, the cooling fan relay has probably failed. That relay is located on the front edge of the underhood fuse box; near the fender on the drivers side, between the battery and the shock tower.

    4> The head gasket has been damaged by the engine previously overheating; and now leaks hot combustion gases into the cooling system whenever the engine accelerates. This can be confirmed or disproved by connecting a cooling system pressure tester to the radiator neck, and watching the pressure gauge when the engine is accelerated. If the pressure in the cooling system increases significantly under acceleration; the head gasket is probably leaking. There is also another test for a blown head gasket; which involves drawing air from inside the radiator up through a vial containing a chemical which changes color in the presence of combustion gases. And an infra red emissions analyzer can also identify a leaking head gasket; by detecting hydrocarbons in the air inside the radiator.

    If the head gasket is leaking; the cylinder head will have to be removed, and the head surface checked for warpage and the entire head checked for cracks. The head will often require remachining to make the sealing surface flat again. And if the motor has over 50,000 miles on it; the valves probably should also be reground. If a head gasket is replaced on an engine which has a warped head; the new gasket will leak, and the engine will continue to overheat.
  • zaken1zaken1 Posts: 556
    Hi again,

    I'm sorry it sometimes takes so long for me to get new insights; but that's just the way my mind works these days.

    There is another test you can do for free, which will determine whether the distributor pick up coil is the source of your problem (and I do believe that is the most likely issue at this time): Try push starting the car in second gear; by either having at least three healthy people push it by hand as fast as they can on a level or downhill slope, and engaging the clutch when the car is going at their maximum speed; or pushing it with another car, with a tire wedged as a cushion between the bumper of the push car and yours. Make sure the key is turned to the position where the dashboard warning lights are lit while you do. If the car starts, and does not subsequently restart with the starter; the distributor pick up coil is definitely bad. If you have not done the ignition switch bypass test through the cigarette lighter plug, as I previously explained; the start contacts in the ignition switch may be an alternate source of the problem. But if you did test the ignition switch by the method I suggested, and the car did not start at that time; then the distributor pick up coil is the only remaining possibility. I hope this helps!!! Joel
  • Hi Steve,
    I am guessing that there is good flow; what I meant by that was, after a flush, the upper and lower hoses and the radiator were all heating up together, no cold spots in the radiator. The temp gauge will redline within a few seconds of applying gas, but it will drop to normal level just a quick after I let off the gas. Also, this doesn't happen when I rev the engine in neutral, only in gear. In neutral, the temp guage doesn't jump.
    Based off the post with suggestions after yours:
    It does not seem that the radiator is pulling from the reservior. I ran the car with the radiator cap off to get out the air; it is air free (from what I can tell) and still not pulling from the reservior. The fan is not kicking on, but I'm not getting the gauge over 1/2 just letting it idle, or reving the engine. The radiator fluid is mixed 50/50, I double checked that today.
    I'm hoping that helps, looking forward to any other suggestions.
  • Zaken 1:

    OK, finally found the problem. Underneath the fuel injector there is a little O ring that the injector sits on. Well, that stupid little ring was split from wear, so that the fuel supply was getting messed up.

    When the ring was replaced, the fuel got straightened out-we were able to put the fuel fuse in again and it started.

    However, I think that raw gas was slowly seeping into the pan after running down the cylinder walls slowly over a period of time. This resulted in a thinning of the oil so consequently I now have a rod bearing knock, but the car starts and runs ok now.

    From what I can ascertain, we can install 3 new rod bearings pretty simply by dropping the pan to install them. There doesn't appear to be anything major in the way to access the bearings.

    I wish to thank you very much for all of the help you offered. You put a lot of time into your suggestions, and I truly appreciate your help.
  • zaken1zaken1 Posts: 556
    Hi,

    I'm delighted to hear that you found the problem!!! I would just like to suggest that I doubt the rod bearings were damaged by the diluted oil. So I believe that if you change the oil and filter, and then drive it a little, the knock should go away. A knock could also be caused if the ignition timing has been changed to an incorrect setting.
  • Well, I changed the oil and filter, 20W-50 grade oil, plus put in 16 oz or so of something called "Lucas Oil Stabilizer" and drove it around the block for about 5-10 minutes, but the knock was still there, it seemed to abate somewhat, and it gets quieter when accelerating and louder when just idling. Do you think it might get better over time? Not only that, but I now need a new starter or solenoid combo, as after all the trying to start it, the solenoid is acting up. I had to push it and pop the clutch to get it going. I wonder if I take off the starter, if somehow i can fix the solenoid. If I have to put in the rod bearings, I will. I do like the Metro, and when it does perform right, it is a great little car.
  • zaken1zaken1 Posts: 556
    All the rod knocks I have ever heard become louder under acceleration and load, and get quieter at idle. So this doesn't sound like a rod knock to me. The three possibilities I would entertain are 1> a hydraulic valve lifter which has an air pocket in it; which will eventually stop making noise after being driven at say 40 mph for a few miles, or 2> a timing belt tensioner pulley which is loose, worn or has been improperly adjusted, or 3> valve noise from carbon deposit build up on intake valve stems; which can be addressed by adding the contents of a small size bottle of Chevron Techroline fuel system and combustion chamber cleaner (which comes in small and large size bottles) to a tank of fuel just before filling it up. This particular product works much better than other brands; so it is well worth going to the trouble of getting it (at Chevron gas stations, Wal Mart, and Kragen, Checker, Shucks, Murray, and O'Reilly auto parts stores) It sometimes takes 50 or 75 miles of driving for the effect to become apparent.

    You can often distinguish between timing belt tensioner and valve train noises by holding your ear against the end of a broomstick, stethoscope or a wooden rod, while touching the other end to various parts of the engine, and listening carefully to hear where the noise is loudest. Timing belt tensioner noises would be most pronounced when touching the middle of the timing belt cover. Valve train noises would be loudest at the valve cover or the side of the cylinder head between the spark plugs (and this is where a non metallic rod is essential for safety).

    If the starter solenoid is defective, it cannot be fixed, but can be replaced. I hate to admit it; but I have forgotten whether this starter has a built in or a removable solenoid. I think it is integrated into the starter. Here again, perhaps it is not in the starter itself; but may be something as simple as a poor ground connection for a battery cable, corroded or loose battery cable clamps, or a loose wire from the ignition switch at the starter. It also might be a defective ignition switch or clutch pedal switch; so don't assume it is in the starter without proving it by trying to activate the starter with a jumper wire from the battery positive terminal to the tab on the starter where the wire from the ignition switch normally connects.
  • Zaken1:

    I got lucky. A local salvage yard had a used starter on the shelf which I got for $35.00. I put it in and it works great.

    The car starts right up now and runs great EXCEPT....... that knocking noise is definitely a rod bearing issue. My plan is to drop the pan and install 3 new rod bearings. There is hardly anything in the way, so access should be easy. Here is my question please: the car has 120,000 miles on it. Do you know what bearings I should get. Would you know the part number, etc.

    Thanks so much for your kind assistance and help.
  • zaken1zaken1 Posts: 556
    Well, I will give you the information you asked; but I will not take any responsibility for the outcome, because;

    1> it does not make any sense to me that fuel dilution during a long period of cranking or local driving will take out rod bearings. This is because gasoline has some lubricating properties, and the loads and speeds which the engine was subjected to during the time when the injector was leaking were very low. So I just don't believe that this treatment would be anywhere near severe enough to take out the bearings. I have seen many engines run on diluted oil, and I have NEVER seen bearings become damaged as a result. It is only when an engine runs out of oil that this happens.

    2> Furthermore (and perhaps even more significantly) any combination of load and lack of lubrication which would be sufficient to take out the bearings would probably also score the crank journals. So if your bearings are really wiped out; you probably need to have the crank reground, in order to keep from repeating the same scene. If you insist on replacing the bearings; please inspect the crank journals for scoring or bluing before you install new bearings. If the crank is scored or discolored from heat; then you'll need to have the crank remachined, in order for the new bearings to last anywhere near a normal length of time.

    3> The knocking created by loose rod bearings is directly proportional to the amount of load on the motor. It is quietest at idle, and becomes louder the harder you accelerate. But you said that your engine's noise is loudest at idle; and becomes quieter as you accelerate. And this is just NOT what bad bearings sound like.

    4> There is another type of knock which sounds totally ominous, and which DOES sound like what you described. It once convinced me that a 3 month old Toyota Celica had something major broken inside its motor. This noise was loudest at idle. It sounded to me like a heavy metal bar was banging around inside the motor. When I first heard it on my client's nearly new Celica, I told her to not drive the car one block more; and to have it towed to the dealership for warranty repair of an obviously defective motor. And she did so. Some time later, I encountered her again, and asked her what the problem turned out to be with her car. And she told me that the dealership had just run some carbon solvent through the combustion chambers, and that had completely cleared up the noise!!! They then told her that the noise, which is referred to as a "carbon knock," was caused by her use of cheap fuel that had insufficient quantities of engine cleaning additives in it. And that had led to the build up of carbon in the combustion chambers to such a degree that it effectively increased the compression ratio to the point where the engine went into uncontrolled detonation at idle. The dealership then told her to NEVER use any fuel except Chevron (which contains adequate quantities of carbon solvents). And the problem never came back.

    Some years before that, I had the same experience with a Honda motorcycle which I had bought new and lovingly maintained for 80,000 miles (except for always using cheap fuel). And I naively misdiagnosed that sound as a broken piston skirt; and as a result literally gave the machine away. I later learned that the person who bought it never did anything to the motor, and it gave him no problems afterward. Carbon knock is something that we old timers never encountered in the past. It is a unique consequence of a glitch in the chemistry of modern reformulated fuels; in which the additives which are used to replace lead turned out to produce heavy carbon deposits in combustion chambers. Some fuel manufacturers (Chevron, Shell, and Texaco) have developed additives which counteract this carbon build up. But those additives are expensive; so the cheaper fuels don't contain them. And that's where the carbon knock comes from.

    But it's your car, and your life. You can do what you want with it. Since I've been down that road before, I am just trying to save you a bunch of time, money, and frustration. But you can override my advice, (at your own risk) if you want.

    If you log on to Rock Auto's website, and select your car and engine model; scroll down to the "engine" category, click on "connecting rod bearing" and you can use any of the brands listed there. I personally would not use the Clevite/Perfect Circle bearing, because it is made of aluminum; which has poorer anti friction properties than the other brands. But the caveat in selecting bearing sizes is that some engines are manufactured with undersize crankshaft journals (as a result of a machining error when the crank was first manufactured). So those cranks would require a thicker bearing to achieve the proper clearances. Some connecting rods are remachined to a larger ID during overhaul, which also would require a thicker bearing.

    The situation is compounded because some manufacturers (namely Beck Arnley) call thicker bearings "oversize" (which is literally what they are); while all the other listed manufacturers call thicker bearings "undersize" (because they are made to match an undersize crankshaft). This is just a difference in semantics. All bearings which differ from stock dimensions are thicker bearings. Nobody makes a bearing which is thinner than the stock part; regardless of what they call it.

    But, since some new crankshafts have undersize journals, and some used engines have had their crankshaft remachined during an overhaul; you cannot assume any crankshaft has stock diameter journals. The journals must be accurately measured with a micrometer or dial caliper before you can know what size bearing will fit properly. Wear on the journal is not an issue in bearing selection (unless you have a Model T Ford). The journal will either be stock, or smaller than stock in .010"; 020"; or .030" increments. And the connecting rod inside diameter will either be stock; or larger than stock in .010"; or 020" increments.

    If your crank journals are stock diameter, while the con rod ID is .010" larger than stock; then you'd need a .010" thicker bearing. If the crank journals are .010" smaller than stock, and the con rod ID is stock; then you'd also need a .010" thicker bearing.

    Rod bearings for the Metro are made in stock thickness, and in steps of .010" (.25mm); .020 (.50mm); and .030" (.75mm) thicker than stock.

    If you look at the part image for the Sealed Power # 31140RA bearing, there is a handy chart which lists the stock crank journal diameter as 1.6530-1.6535". This chart also lists the ID of the stock con rod as 1.7716-1.7721". Wear on journals is less than .001-.002" so it is not a factor in bearing selection. And the oil clearance is also not pertinent to this operation. Just measure the crank journal and rod ID, compare the numbers to stock; and you'll know what size bearing to buy.
  • WOW....
    Thanks a million for taking all this time.
    It started my day with a bang!
  • zaken1zaken1 Posts: 556
    Well, I just hope the impact did not damage your grille.
  • i have a 1992 geo metro and it is leaking oil on the left side of the engine right below the valve cover, however i have replaced the valve cover gasket twice each time expecting the oil leak to stop and it hasnt , i used Permatex High Temp Red RTV Silicone gasket sealer along with a new gasket when i replaced the old ones, when the engine runs i can see the flow of oil leaking town the engine, im stumped and i dont know what could be causing the leak, any ideas??? thanks
  • zaken1zaken1 Posts: 556
    I assume 'on the left side of the engine' means the side next to the distributor. That end of the valve cover has a deep recess which fits over the flange on the head. If you are getting a severe leak at that location; it could come from a crack or gouge in the valve cover or head; or from debris on the valve cover or head surface which keeps the valve cover from seating fully; or from the use of a cork or fiber gasket (the original equipment gasket is rubber); or from uneven or insufficient tightening of the valve cover nuts; or from the use of plain nuts instead of the original cap nuts to hold the valve cover on.

    It is absolutely essential that both the head and the valve cover be surgically clean and free of all traces of old gasket material and sealer along the entire sealing surface, before installing a new gasket. This cleaning should include the recesses in the curved part of the valve cover. You can use an inspection light and a screwdriver, solvent, an Exacto knife, dental probes, or similar tools to reach into the corners of the cover and remove fragments. It just takes one tiny chunk of debris to keep the valve cover from seating completely. And after the parts are cleaned; thoroughly check the entire sealing surface for cracks or gouges.

    The gray formula Permatex RTV is preferable to the high temp red formula; because it is more resistant to being squeezed out of place when the cover is tightened. And that cover does not get hot enough to require high temperature sealer. It is also important to only apply only a thin, even coat of the sealer to the top and bottom faces of the gasket (not to the metal parts); and then wait about ten minutes after applying the sealer to allow it to set up, before installing the gasket in the valve cover. The sealer should still be tacky enough to hold the gasket in the cover without it drooping out of position. And the valve cover nuts should be tightened in a criss cross pattern, going back and forth in several steps between nuts on opposite ends; so the cover can come down evenly. The final tightening should be done with a torque wrench, to 15 foot lbs.

    Some brands of gaskets may be made of cork, fiber or cardboard. These are inferior quality, and should not be used on this motor. If that is the type of gasket you've been using; find a store that sells a rubber gasket. And be sure they sell you the right gasket for this motor. It should match the shape of the cover, and fit snugly in the cover without needing to be cut or shortened. Also note that there is only one way the gasket will fit; there should be one curved end that matches the curve of the valve cover and the cylinder head. And the gasket definitely has a top and a bottom side.

    Some gaskets also come with grommets. These grommets go on top of the valve cover, under the cap nuts. If your gasket came with grommets, and they were placed underneath the cover; they would prevent the cover from seating.
  • carol54carol54 Posts: 4
    I don't know if this helps but I just had a bunch of work done on my 99. They said that leak on the left side was coming from a seal that has to do with the timing chain component. They said if they went in there to replace it, it would be a kind-of a major deal, so it would be kind-of expensive, that it probably would be okay for a while if I am not going thru too much oil.(I usually have to add about a quarter of a quart a month). I didn't get it fixed this time, as I spent $475 ona new pressure plate, something to do with the clutch and about 5 bolts were missing from my tranny! Whoever owned the car before replaced the original engine with another type and I didn't have a clue. I am misssing a couple of motor mounts and a tranny mount.A couple of these the auto shop could not find anywhere and they think it is because of the motor change. So I'll just bip-bop along and when it starts to rattle too much or the gears start jamming at first notice I'll take it back to the shop to have him tighten it all up again.
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