Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





We thought we picked out an SUV....but we are having doubts

2

Comments

  • hdfatboyhdfatboy Posts: 324
    "I wish we played with that center console in the Platinum but when you fold it flat does it require that the chairs be folded at the same time ?(you mentioned that it folds flat with the captains chairs but does fold independently)"

    Yes, the 2nd row center console in the Plat can be folded flat independent of folding the Captain's chairs down. In fact, on long trips if we stop for a snack or lunch to go, the center console is folded flat and used as a table top. Its actually designed with shallow compartments to keep meals/snacks on the surface from sliding off during braking or turns. Additionally, the cupholder divider is removable from the front of the center console so that it can be placed on top of the center console after its been flipped into a table...rather nice design.

    "We also failed to look at the Platinums cargo space the is left when the 2/3 part is folded down. We are going to go to our local dealer to look at that on the Limited as I am sure it is the same. We have a ton of luggage when we go on trips which is another issue to work through on the Platinum."

    We had a similar concern coming from a Suburban where there was alot more space behind the 3rd row seat. We've taken our daughter back to college many times and typically fold either the 1/3 or the 2/3 side of the 3rd row seat down to hold more stuff on the return to school while still letting my son sit in the 3rd row section that remains up. Its worked well for us.

    "I am so glad you explained the aftermarket Satellite so we know that getting that as a line item and finding one that has it is not important as it can be added later."

    Glad to help. No sense in giving the dealer $800 when you can install an XM tuner for under $300. If the dealer offers to install the tuner for $400, its probably worth it not to have to install it yourself.

    "Oh, and do you have laser cruise control? If not do you miss and if you do would you miss it if it wasn't there?"

    Interesting...this was the only option I didn't get and it was by design although I could easily see the benefit of laser cruise. I didn't get it because I tow a boat alot in the summer. I had heard from others that they were concerned that while towing in traffic you could find yourself exiting traffic to a ramp and then the laser thinking the road was clear and unexpectedly increase speed to the pre-set. Not a good situation while towing and I elected not to get this option. That being said there have been many times on long trips that I wished I had the laser cruise to avoid the braking and cruise re-setting steps.

    Hope that helps.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,855
    i would look for a loaded low mileage used suv, there are tons out there.
    if you don't like it, maybe you lose 10k swapping it.
    on any new one you will lose 20k.
    plus with the kids beating it up, you won't be as bothered about it.
    i recommend having one of the kids in the 3rd row.
    keeps the peace.
    if you need more room for vacation. buy a hitch mount or rooftop cargo box.
  • buzzy8buzzy8 Posts: 31
    Glad to help. No sense in giving the dealer $800 when you can install an XM tuner for under $300. If the dealer offers to install the tuner for $400, its probably worth it not to have to install it yourself.

    hdfatboy,
    The line item (MSPR) cost on the XM radio in the window was $449.00 for the one we saw that had it in it. So I would think that having them add it on for $449 if it didn't have it in it would be okay for the labor and time it would take us to do it. Is it the same system if they do it or the one you did aftermarket? If it the same, I would probably think having them do it is okay.

    My husband and I talked about it all again last night.....he is leaning toward either waiting for something that comes out with everything we want (Platinum with bench seats) but if he would have to buy right now he agrees with most here that the Platinum is workable with the kids. (not preferable but workable). His concern is that he does not want to spend the money on an SUV and not have enough cargo space with the one child in the 3rd row that when we go on vacation we have to put a cargo bin on our roof. Then we might as well keep our minivan where we do not need to do that now. He also is not crazy about the idea of having a lot of aftermarket work for him to do.....he is an electrician so it is easy for him, he really just doesn't like the idea of a lot of fooling around in the dash. (it would be for the remote start, navigation bypass and the satellite radio maybe)

    I am still leaning toward the bench seats and giving up the platinum goodies for the sake of being easier with the in and out with the kids and not loosing the back cargo. If one of the kids wants to get away from the others by sitting in the 3rd row they still can. I called a few of my friends yesterday who have 3 kids and there opinion in mainly the bench seat unless the captains chairs have a walkthough in between the two captains chairs but since the center console is there, that is not possible. We are going to go to our local dealer and look at the cargo space that is left with one of the seats in use......and I can't help being nervous with one of the kids being back there for safety reasons on a long trip. There are not any government studies on the safety of that 3rd row for what I am reading.....Sorry for rambling outloud....thanks for listening and all the valuable input.
  • hdfatboyhdfatboy Posts: 324
    "The line item (MSPR) cost on the XM radio in the window was $449.00 for the one we saw that had it in it. So I would think that having them add it on for $449 if it didn't have it in it would be okay for the labor and time it would take us to do it. Is it the same system if they do it or the one you did aftermarket? If it the same, I would probably think having them do it is okay."

    Buzzy, if the xm tuner is already in a vehicle on the lot at the $449 MSRP its probably worth it. However if you find the vehicle you want and decide to add the xm tuner at a later time, I thought it was worth letting you know that most dealers charge $600-800 to add XM later. I didn't add xm when I purchased the vehicle because XM and Sirius were going through a corporate merger and I didn't know what changes might happen to the tuners. In the end, it was easy enough to add however for $449 its worth having the dealer handle it.

    Regarding the seating in the Platinum versus the Ltd, ultimately only you and your family can make the decision that best meets your needs. All depends on you priorities and budget. For my family, the heated second row seats, a/c front seats, TEMS adjustable suspension, 2 position memory driver seat and the Red Rock leather interior easily outweighed the loss of the 2nd row bench seat. Since you can only get these options in the Platinum, then its a relatively easy decision to make. If the options above are less important than the 2nd row bench, then its best to save the money and get a fully loaded LTD which will include every option that's in the Plat other than those noted (plus laser cruise is not available in the LTD if that option was of interest).

    Hopefully that helps in your decision-making.
  • buzzy8buzzy8 Posts: 31
    hdfatboy,

    Everything you have answered has helped us with our decision making.....wouldn't have gotton this far without you!! :)
  • buzzy8buzzy8 Posts: 31
    For my family, the heated second row seats, a/c front seats, TEMS adjustable suspension, 2 position memory driver seat and the Red Rock leather interior easily outweighed the loss of the 2nd row bench seat

    another question that came to mind...I see that rear height control suspension is listed as a option that can be added...is that the same as TEMS? and I know you mentioned that the laser cruise is not available on the LTD but also notice it is listed as a option.. do you know if it is uninstallable in the LTD even though it is listed as an option?Thanks as always
  • buzzy8buzzy8 Posts: 31
    oops, I meant to say installable in the LTD, not unistallable....
  • Guys...not to counteract anyone, but I ran into many dealers willing to install the Toyota XM receiver for $500. It varied a little between $450 and $550. In the end I purchased the unit myself from Toyota for $349 and asked for the installation instructions (TIS) from the service department. I then took it to one of my trusted audio shops and they quoted me $75 to put it in......well worth the savings in my frustration and time to do the work myself. My local dealer quoted me 2.5 hours of install time at $95 and hour, so that's why I went with an independent shop.

    Another thing I have mentioned previously was that I went with the captains chairs and purchased the center console for second row........since this is an after thought the truck did not come from factory ready for console to be installed......this is what I have run into on it (be wary if you decide to go this route)
    First....there are no mounting bosses under the carpet to screw the console into, so it will have to be drilled custom.

    Second....the captains seats in LTD have arm rests where the console is located meaning that you either leave the console out or have the console installed and you remove the armrests to accommodate the fit.

    I'm going to have the armrests removed and see how it looks. I will have to make sure there is a plug to cover the hole from the armrest bolt and will post some pics after I get it done.

    I just didn't figure on this amount of extra work after the fact and I'm getting frustrated.
  • hdfatboyhdfatboy Posts: 324
    "I see that rear height control suspension is listed as a option that can be added...is that the same as TEMS? and I know you mentioned that the laser cruise is not available on the LTD but also notice it is listed as a option.. do you know if it is uninstallable in the LTD even though it is listed as an option?"

    The rear suspension height control and TEMS adjustable suspension are 2 separate things. The rear height control is optional on the LTD and standard on the platinum. This feature can raise the rear of the vehicle upto 3/4 inch from normal or lower it down 3/4in from normal. However the vehicle will automatically return to normal height as soon as the vehicle exceeds 18mph. I see this feature as having limited use unless you are towing a trailer.

    If you tow, then you can align the tow ball of the Sequoia to a trailer by observing it in the rear view camera on the Nav unit. As you approach the trailer hitch, you can lower the rear of the vehicle and align the ball with the trailer receiver and then raise the rear of the vehicle to raise the trailer ball into the trailer receiver. Quite trick and if you have done alot of trailer in the past, you'll really understand how great a feature this is. Once you drive away, the vehicle will automatically put the ride height back to normal. I'm not sure of other circumstances when the manual ride height adjustment would be helpful.

    TEMS adjustable suspension is an entirely different feature and is exclusive to the Platinum and cannot be added to the LTD. This suspension uses entirely different shocks and electronic sensors to adjust the comfort of the suspension. I wasn't sure at first if a 6000lb suv would really benefit from this feature however I'm really glad I have it.

    Essentially this feature provides for the suspension to have 3 Setting. "Comfort" "Normal" & " Sport". I find I much prefer the firmer suspension of Sport for local roads where there are more curves and I prefer the comfort of Normal for long highway trips. I find that the Comfort setting is to "soft" of a ride for my taste.

    I've read where othere's that have tried to compare the non-TEMS to the TEMS suspension found the LTD/SR5 to have the factory suspension set somewhere between Comfort and Normal. Based on that, I am particularly glad I have the TEMS since the majority of my driving is in Sport mode.
  • hdfatboyhdfatboy Posts: 324
    "Another thing I have mentioned previously was that I went with the captains chairs and purchased the center console for second row........since this is an after thought the truck did not come from factory ready for console to be installed......this is what I have run into on it (be wary if you decide to go this route)
    First....there are no mounting bosses under the carpet to screw the console into, so it will have to be drilled custom."


    Are you trying to add an aftermarket console to the second row of your LTD or the console from the Platinum?

    I've not heard of anyone that was able to install the Platinum 2nd row console into the LTD. In addition to the missing brackets, have you decided what you're going to do with the 2 holes you're going to have in the front of the console? These holes represent where the switches are installed in the console from the factory to adjust the heat for the Platinum 2nd row Captain Chairs.

    My guess is that these "switch holes" are cut at the factory, since the switches are wired with the seats at the factory. Since there are no heated 2nd row seats in the LTD, I'm unsure how the switch holes in the console will be handled...maybe dummy switches or some type of plug/cover for the hole?
  • buzzy8buzzy8 Posts: 31
    Hey HDfatboy....can you email me your email address????.....we talked to the dealer yesterday about a price, wanted to get your feedback but don't want to post it beforehand......mine is solcat0@aol.com......
  • mae7mae7 Posts: 1
    Does anyone know how much I should expect to pay for a new 2007 Expedition EL that neer got sold?? I was asking about a 2008, and the dealer said they'd discount me on the 2007 if I'd take it... Doesn't seem like there's a way to figure that out on Kelley Blue Book as the vehicles are used. I put 2007 in to the Kelley Blue Book and random 1000 miles just to see what I'd get, but apparently that implies it's used, and it came up with 20.5K approx. They wanted to charge me 28K, stating since they didn't have rebates, they were giving a sale price of 7000 less than msrp (I think). THANKS!
  • Just adding my two cents. I bought a Platinum about 1 week ago. I am very happy with it but still finding little things I am not sure I like. It was funny, normally I research stuff to the nth degree, to the point of stagnation on pulling the trigger. For some reason, it took me less than 2 weeks to start looking at SUVs before I bought this. Not that that matters to anyone.

    Anyway, I traded in my 1999 4runner with 152K miles on it. I loved it but we wanted something bigger so we went with Sequoia. Focusing on the 2nd row seating options. Basically there are 3 ways to go.

    1. bench seat
    2. captain with console
    3. captain with no console

    I have (2.) with the Platinum. We wanted the Platinum for all its many features but I was really not sure about the seating option. We have 2 boys 4 and 7. In the 4 runner, I would pick them up from school and they would throw there backpacks in the middle seat in between. Now with the monstrous console, we can't really do that. There is plenty of room in the back to throw stuff but I was used to doing it the other way. So that is one negative. Nextly, we have a big dog that goes everywhere with me. Including work every day. She is 120 lb St. Bernard. One issue I did not foresee (my bad) is that the console is not high enough to provide a good dog barrier. She pretty much would climb onto my lap in the front if she had easy access. Since the console sits low she kind of tries to lay across it. A few times when I hit the brakes she has slid all the way to the back of the front seats. She is 10 so she isn't very agile. I had to pull over and fix her. So I am going to have to figure out some sort of sturdy blockade system that looks decent.

    Furthermore, on plenty of occasions with the 4runner, I pulled out the kid's car seats and folded down the second row to move or haul a bunch of stuff. Now, if I need the room and I fold down the 2nd row seats, that monstrous console will always be in the way. At least Toyota designed it to fold over and be flush with the 2nd row seats folded down. That was a key move. I would really be bumming without that. But I still feel I need something to cover the console depending on what I am hauling.

    I love the front heated seats. My first ever. I didn't think I would really care but they are awesome. And really hot. Once my [non-permissible content removed] is toasty, I have to turn it down ( I know, TMI !) The second row captains has heated seats. Since I currently have car seats in both, they will do the squirts no good. However, they will be out of those before long and I plan to own this for a good decade.

    So some pluses. I got the rear seat DVD entertainment system. It is nice having a spacious center console to store DVD, and other stuff. I haven;t made full use of it yet but I am sure that will come.

    Although it is different than what I was used to with the 4runner, I am not regretting my decision. No one way is perfect. You have to decide for yourself. And don't look back once you do. I know, that's easy to say.

    The laser cruise control is great. In the 4runner, I used cruise control a lot. I even got pretty good at using the cruise control controls to accelerate and slow down without using my breaks or accelerator. But it was still annoying. Now the laser does all that on its own. And it works very well even around slight curves. It must be able to detect that I am turning slightly and adjust its signal path to account for that. Great! And it has 3 levels of distance control. Default is very conservative where your vehicle will slow itself down when it approaches another wayyyy ahead. At first I thought I would never use it and I was pissed. But then I found you can adjust it to mediumand short distance. Since I live in MA and I am used to getting 2 inches from someones bumper, I need that close setting. Seriously, it is still a good reasonable distance away.

    One last thing. Here is a link to my post earlier on what I paid for this baby. I think I got a good deal. In this market, never pay more than invoice.

    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.eec894a/1474

    Wow, I rambled. Sorry about that if you made it this far.

    :)
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,907
    A reporter from a large national newspaper would like to speak to consumers who are holding onto their cars versus selling them or buying a new one because of economic uncertainties. Please respond to ctalati@edmunds.com with your daytime contact information no later than Friday, January 30, 2009.

    Chintan Talati
    Edmunds.com
    Corporate Communications

    MODERATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • that is a horrible deal, 28K for an 07. Trust me dont do it, i have an 07 first year of 6 speed transmission, it sucks, been in shop 7 times for fixes.

    In 2007 I paid 32 drive out on a msrp of 41K. So before taxes 29 something.

    Go for an 08 or even better an 09. 09's have a better updated transmission, different series. With the economy how it is you can practically offer them 15K off the truck and they will most likely take it.
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Posts: 1,405
    I've had two of each. I have heard that the Nissan / Infiniti will go away too. However as for warranty and service work on the Infiniti, the dealer here (100+ miles away) came and picked up my FX45 and left me a loaner, even on oil changes. I'd still shy away from the Q though if it's not going to be around.

    I probably would have bought a Sequoia but when I got the Expedition last Nov 07 they told me it would be spring before the Sequoia came out. Then they showed up in December just after I made my decision.

    I'm glad though I didn't buy a Sequoia since you can now get $10,000 off. I would owe more in a year than what I could have bought a new one now for.

    One feature I really like with the Expedition is the fold flat rear seats. That may not mean as much if you always have the third row up.

    Calculating depreciation is tricky. Many people cite the used price as compared to the MSRP. Until recently when they have started steep discounts for the Sequoia, the Sequoia actually lost as much in value as the Expedition. In addition to that you had more money tied up.

    I don't like the FE in either. Opinions vary but I actually prefer the interior of the Expedition a lot more then the Sequoia. As for exteriors, my wife loved her Sequoia's but she does not like the new look.

    I will say though either has enormous room. If I had it to do over I would have gotten the extended version of the Expedition. When taking the whole family the extra foot on the back would hold a lot more stuff with the third seat up.

    I do not like the handling of the Expedition. I have not driven the new Sequoia but my older ones reminded me more of my 4Runner as far as handling. The ford is a soft ride that is comfortable but it wallows around curves. I don't feel comfortable driving briskly on curvy roads. I didn't find that an issue on the Sequoia.

    I can see that money is probably no problem for you since you're looking at the Platinum. I leased my Expedition for two years hoping that by 2010 there would be a diesel or hybrid option for something in this size. I'd love something like this at 19-20mpg, but 14 mpg sucks. If I don't purchase my Expedition off lease (pretty cheap) I don't know that I would ever buy a new large SUV again. They all depreciate way too much and even if you can afford it, it is a waste of money that could be used for some better use (perhaps a Prius to drive when you don't need the room).

    However if I could get a Sequoia for $10,000 off AND 0 percent that would make me think hard.
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Posts: 1,405
    Doesn't seem like there's a way to figure that out on Kelley Blue Book as the vehicles are used. I put 2007 in to the Kelley Blue Book and random 1000 miles just to see what I'd get, but apparently that implies it's used, and it came up with 20.5K approx. They wanted to charge me 28K, stating since they didn't have rebates, they were giving a sale price of 7000 less than msrp (I think). THANKS!
    You're thinking right. The value when you drive it off will be no more than Private party value in kbb.com Even that is more than they will give you on trade. I'm assuming that is this is only $7000 less than msrp that it is striped. That does not sound like a good deal.

    I ended up leasing, not sure if I wanted to own long term and then have to figure out how to dump it if gas stayed up. My first lease and I was surprised. Since the money factor on the lease was almost at 0 percent, I leased for two years and the residual, or the price I can buy it for is cheaper than what I would have owed on the SUV had I bought it up front. I ended up leasing and now I can walk away if it is not what I want or I can buy it. Cheap.

    It was a $47,000 msrp. I got the Xplan pricing and rebates and had a capital (buy) price of about $38,000. (They got even cheaper later). My purchase price in 2 years is $23,000.

    I think that is a great price if I'm still in the mood to own it, but I have the option to walk away.

    I have been looking on ebay and other sites at the 07 prices which should be what my 08 will be worth in another year (probably). The 07's can be had for under $20K

    The biggest problem I see buying used is dealing with a dealer. It seems that if a vehicle has a trade value of $15K (which is all they will pay for a trade) then the private party value is around $18 and then "Retail" will run arounf $21K to $23K. The trick is to purchase a good one from someone you know and trust. If you buy one still on warranty then I see no reason to pay a dealer a premium. Their "certified" used vehicles are preced even higher. Hey, it's still on warranty!

    I belive dealers will be focussing on used vehicles more and more to survive the next year so I'm sure they will want to gouge people.

    If you want to know though the maximum a dealer has in a vehicle it will be the used "fair" condition kbb trade value. I don't care what papers they show you they just don't pay a premium for nice cars. They don't want to put more in them than what they can go to the auction and get them for but they will go high trade if you're dealing on a new one and they want to sell. If they show you a higher trade, there is a good chance they have made up on it with the discount on the pricing of the new vehicle.
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Posts: 1,405
    I traded in my 1999 4runner with 152K miles on it

    I tried downsizing to a 4Runner when the kids left. However they would ride places with us often and since my son is 6'4" my wife would ride in the back. She has a bum knee so I ignored her complaints. Finally I got tired of hearing her gripe and I said you drive, I'll ride back there. It was aweful. No foot room, the seats were low and my knees were up high.

    I also have a 4Runner for a company vehicle. I think it is head and shoulders the best mid size SUV out there. BUT if you have larger teen aged kids the 4Runner should be considerd child cruelity,

    You'll love the Sequoia for the family as they grow.

    I have found now though that the Highlander (I have the Hybrid) is also pretty spacious and has a great second row seat for 2 people. I'll get 23 to 26 mpg so over the years this will be a whole lot cheaper to operate and meets the needs of a smaller family
  • hdfatboyhdfatboy Posts: 324
    "One feature I really like with the Expedition is the fold flat rear seats. That may not mean as much if you always have the third row up. "

    FYI, the seats fold flat in the Sequoia both the 2nd and 3rd rows. The 3rd row folds electrically in the Platinum and is an option on the Ltd.
  • If you have a Platinum with captains chairs in the 2nd row, you have a sizable console in the center. But this too can be opened from back to front to lay flush with the the two folded down captains chairs. I bought a custom cover from Canvasback of Idaho that covers the console and protects the back from dog (St Bernard). If anybody is interested, I'll post a picture of it (cover, not dog).
  • Would love to see your pic. I have a Ltd with Captains chairs and I added console. I have 3 boxers that I carry around and would have preferred to have had second row bench, but could not find one with the Nav and DVD + 20" wheels. Dealers just told me it wasn't possible to get it.

    After having it 30 days so far I would have much preferred the bench.
  • I have had my Limited for about 30 days so far and I just noticed that the "range" reading had changed from when I first bought the truck.

    I remember the first few fill ups showing that I could go roughly 380 miles on a full tank. Now when I fill up it says 285 miles on a full tank. That is only 10mpg......I commute to work about 25 miles each way and my trip computer says I'm averaging around 14.
    Why does the range not match up with the avg fuel economy?

    Has anyone else noticed this?
  • hdfatboyhdfatboy Posts: 324
    "I remember the first few fill ups showing that I could go roughly 380 miles on a full tank. Now when I fill up it says 285 miles on a full tank. That is only 10mpg......I commute to work about 25 miles each way and my trip computer says I'm averaging around 14.
    Why does the range not match up with the avg fuel economy?

    Has anyone else noticed this? "


    How are you measuring your range? One of the things you need to get used to is that the Sequoia shows E with 5-6 gallons still left in the tank. You probably have 80-100 miles still left in the tank when it reads Empty. Next time you fill up you'll see that it rarely takes much more than 20 gals when the guage first reads E.

    Next time you fill up, subtract the amount of gals you buy from 26.4. Now take the difference and multiply the remaining gallons times the MPG on the trip computer...you just found your remaining fuel mileage range.
  • Yeah I had noticed the difference in filling the tank. Last night I filled up when it said I had 13 miles left to go. It took around 21.5 gallons to fill it meaning I had 5 gallons in reserve (roughly). If I'm getting 13.5 which has been the average, then I had another 65 miles to go on that tank. Add that 65 to my already 285 and I get 350, which is still off the original 385 the computer was telling me I'd get.

    I guess it comes down to the computer re-calibrating itself based upon the driving style or average fuel economy.

    Just wish I could get the posted 14 mpg it says I should get........not seeing it at all even driving conservatively.
  • hdfatboyhdfatboy Posts: 324
    I get 14 mpg now however for the first 10K miles it was under 13mpg. The fuel economy has gone up by 10% over time as the engine breaks in.
  • Interesting.....I'll have to watch that as time passes and see how it does.
  • Sorry it took me so long to get back. I haven't been here in a week. Here are the pics that were sent to me by the folks at canvasback. I wasn't sure from their description if their rear cover would fit right. They actually went to a dealer and installed the cover to take pictures for me. Nice service. So this is not actually my car. This one has the bench and I have the console like you. But all the pieces are separate so you can just omit the middle piece on the 2nd row. I have only installed the back piece and it works great. The velcro seals very tightly so no shifting around like a loose rug. I recommend it.

    I put some pictures up on Carspace. Have a look.

    Warwickmon
  • How many people will you be carrying on a regular basis? That makes the difference!!
  • My regular load will be carrying two boys (4 and 7) plus a St. Bernard. I almost always take the dog to work with me. So my regular setup will be two kids in car seats on the captain chairs. Overall I think I would have been happier with the bench seat for now. The huge center console is mostly wasted space right now. But I'm getting used to it. Plus a bench would have been better to block the dog. But no Platinum's with bench seats around here. The nice thing about these covers is they allow you to move all the seats up or down without removing it.

    W
  • The QX is very unreliable and has safety issues like brake failures and skid control malfunctions. It is noisy, rough riding and drinks gas (much worse than the ratings show). Either the Navigator or Expedition would be a better choice as well as the Tahoe/Suburban.
2
This discussion has been closed.