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Will Green Cars Be Exciting To Drive And Enjoyable To Own?



  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    More on the 1952 Studebaker gas mileage, which was really good:

    Gas mileage, as might be expected, was above average. In fact, in the 1951 Mobilgas Economy Run from Los Angeles to Grand Canyon, a Studebaker Champion, Commander V-8, and Land Cruiser V-8 -- all with overdrive -- finished first, second, and third in actual gas mileage to lead a field of 26 cars entered in "standard classifications."

    In 1952, the Economy Run traveled from Los Angeles to Sun Valley, Idaho. A Champion beat out all regular-sized cars, averaging 27.82 mpg, while a Commander V-8 came in second with 25.60 mpg.

    So if you only got 22 MPG, you musta been a leadfoot.

    But why are you bringing up the mileage you got in a car a generation ago, Gary? Whom or what exactly are you complaining about?

    Guvmint up to today has never mandated what we drive. Ever. No one in guvmint authoriTIE has ever said to anyone in the country, "YOU MUST BUY AND DRIVE THIS CAR."

    They have said, "The exhaust from this vehicle is not clean enough to meet our clean air standards."

    That's not mandating what you CAN drive. It's eliminating polluters from the road.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,669
    The Japanese have designed a system that allows for bland people movers with restrictions that make the consumer replace their vehicle far more often than we do already. In fact sometimes the consumer drives their old car to the recycling lot and parks it for them. Does Toyota or Honda or Suzuki care? Nope. Does it effect Japanese car sales? Nope.

    Actually the emerging issue in the Japanese market the last 12-18 months is exactly this: Japanese car sales are in significant and continual decline, causing a great deal of concern at the tops of the Honda, Toyota, and other Japanese car companies.

    Why the decline? They feel it is because the younger generation just now heading into their 20s and early 30s is less excited about and less interested in cars that have become blander and blander (even among the wild entries in the Japanese home market). This combined with the increased awareness of how hard on the environment cars are has led to a state where younger folks often won't go to the trouble and expense of buying one. Certainly much of the Japanese population lives in large metro areas with excellent transit systems making the purchase of a car much less pressing for a much higher percentage of their population, but still the same thing could begin to happen here.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,067
    In places with good transit systems, you can get away without a car altogether. There are a lot of people in NYC who've never owned cars because they never needed them. However, in places like Philly with mediocre transit systems, a car is necessary. My second job requires reliable transportation - that does NOT mean SEPTA!
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,669
    In fact, in the 1951 Mobilgas Economy Run from Los Angeles to Grand Canyon, a Studebaker Champion, Commander V-8, and Land Cruiser V-8 -- all with overdrive -- finished first, second, and third in actual gas mileage to lead a field of 26 cars entered in "standard classifications."

    LOL! Unlike the current Land Cruiser V-8, which wouldn't have a hope in heck of winning a competition of fuel economy, even among the worst guzzlers available new! :-P

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,067
    Well, the Landcruiser might win if the competitors were an M-1 tank and a Bradley armored vehicle.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,669
    OK, among vehicles certified for passenger use on the street. ;-)

    In general, cars are already headed towards being merely A-to-B transports, with or without the green movement: witness the DOT's excitement over its plan to eventually robotize freeway traffic so that it can travel much closer to together at high speeds, reducing congestion. At that point, the "driver" won't be driving at all any more! Maybe we can start to call them "participants" instead. You will need a participant's license to get behind the wheel.

    Even the "exciting" cars of today leave the driver so removed from the drive that you wonder how they can be called "enthusiast cars". The ever-present march of increasing technology and computerization under the hood and inside the cabin ensures that "driving" as we know it will be all but dead and buried within the next 40 years. We don't need the greenies help to do that, and I say that as a "greenie" myself.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,678
    So if you only got 22 MPG, you musta been a leadfoot.

    I was 19 and traveling 20 miles each way to work on the freeway. Most of the time speeding. They did not have points back then or I would have been in trouble. I got a 1955 Commander after that and it was not as good a mileage as the 1952 4 door Champion. My boss had a 1951 Studebaker Land Cruiser. He was still driving that car when I quit and took the job in Alaska in 1970.

    My point is good mileage has been around a long time. By contrast my 1947 Pontiac was lucky to get 9 MPG. So the Studebaker was a real money saver for me.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,678

    What happens when they eliminate every car you would like to own using goofy science to pass laws? By saying what you cannot drive is narrowing the field as to what you can drive. The current trend with CARB is to narrow down our choices to a few they feel are adequate. Except for the very wealthy. If you can afford a Bentley it is OK to guzzle gas and spew lots of pollution. If you want a Toyota PU with a 4 cylinder diesel you have to install it yourself.

    I see this crazy move by CA as opening up the door for every kind of aftermarket you can imagine. Only a few eco nerds will bow down to the Prius or Insight push. CA should be able to put the final nail in the Domestic automaker's coffin with their lawsuits and mandates.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Gary says, "What happens when they eliminate every car you would like to own using goofy science to pass laws?"

    Then you ADAPT and become a less-picky shopper.

    Hey, the era of wasteful fossil fuel vehicles will eventually end. People need to get their heads wrapped around it sooner than later.

    When green becomes the norm, then there will be only a very small portion of the populace who cannot find what they want in a car.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,678
    Hey, the era of wasteful fossil fuel vehicles will eventually end.

    Fine with me. Just give my a big roomy SUV that gets 40 MPG and I am a happy camper.

    Though maybe CA has a new way to eliminate cars. This is the kind of flawed science CA uses to force people to do as they see fit.

    Mandate could force gas stations out of business

    ARCADIA - Dozens, and potentially hundreds, of gas stations around California are choosing to shut down rather than comply with a state mandate that would require owners to purchase new equipment to reduce vapor emissions at the pump.

    The requirement, known as Phase II in the state's Enhanced Vapor Recovery Program, is set to go into effect in April. It requires gas station owners to individually purchase tens of thousands of dollars of equipment designed to prevent harmful vapors from escaping into the air when gasoline is pumped.

    Among them is George Fasching, who after 31 years of selling gasoline at Fasching's Car Wash in Arcadia, stopped in December.

    "I came to the decision that I was too small a volume operator to continue on with the expenses imposed by the bureaucracy of the state," Fasching said.

    April's requirements would have cost him $35,000, he said. Fasching used to sell the gasoline as a convenience for his car wash customers, and blames the new regulations for forcing him to stop.

    "It will have some effect on my business, but at least I have the relief that I don't have to deal with these people anymore," he said.

    As of the end of December 2008, the South Coast Air Quality Management District had heard back from 3,109 of its 4,500 sites about EVR Phase II.

    Seventy-six - or 2.4 percent - indicated they will be shutting down on April 1, 2009 rather than upgrade their sites, said Dimitri Stanich, public information officer for the California Air Resources Board.

    Some 1,400 of the SCAQMD's sites have not yet responded. About 12,000 dispensing facilities will be affected statewide.

    April's regulations promise to cut what are known as reactive organic gas emissions by 7 tons per day statewide, but opponents point to the fact that California produces 2,322 tons of such gases per day.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    I see nothing at all wrong with that.

    Were you not complaining somewhere on these forums about a gas station on every corner?

    I can't see how things could be worse off if we had a smaller number of gas stations.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,678
    I can't see how things could be worse off if we had a smaller number of gas stations.

    It will mostly affect the small station owners that keep the prices competitive. I guess you missed the drift of what that will really accomplish. Your nothing is clean enough mentality is coming through loud and clear. People are not important in your world. Only government regulations. For me the longer I live in CA the more I feel out of place. I don't like worthless laws that make life tough for the working class. They are the ones that pay for such foolishness.
  • Gagrice,
    Its not that, Larsb is a socialist. Its a deep political belief. The good of any one individual is dependent on the good of all individuals. Your individual rights are not of great consequence, nor are person freedoms. It is all about the collective.

    I don't think that is going to fly in the US. In fact, one of my friends in CA is complaining that the new laws are going to screw California as they are going to get a limited selection of small, possibly undesirable cars, while the 43 states not tagging along will get whatever they like.

    I am also amused by the number of people out west with a Pirus and a BMW, so they do have something that is actually fun to drive in addition to their commuter pod. You also see a lot of driveways with a Prius and a large SUV. Maybe they are trying to balance out?

    I appreciate those that drive a Prius and are willing to make that sacrifice. To them, driving might not be anything pleasant to them anyway, so they might not see it as a sacrifice. I am thankful for them. :D
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204

    Gary, "people" are the MAIN reason for environmental caretaking !!!

    We need to take care of the world and keep the air clean so the people can live healthy and happy lives !!!
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    I am no socialist, sir.

    I have voted Republican my whole life.

    I just realize that sometimes, people, when left of their own accord, are not smart enough or capable enough or willful enough to do the CORRECT, unselfish thing.

    That's where guvmint and laws and mandates need to step in and help people take care of themselves.

    How dirty would the air be if leaded fuel had not been outlawed? DDT? What if the EPA had never been formed?

    Can you imagine the wasteland we'd be living if if the Guvmint did not force private industry to clean up after themselves !!?!?!?!?!?
  • Fair enough,
    So back on topic, do you feel that "green" cars will be:
    1. Exciting to drive?
    2. Enjoyable to own?

    btw i have been following the photo radar conversation seem to have a very European view of things, kind of what made me align you with something of a socialist mentality. Thats not a dig at all, just seemed to be a lot of similarities there.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 32,885
    Instead, the gubbamint simply exports that ecological wasteland to China, which it worked feverishly to open under the old GOP, and that's where the next green cars will probably be made. Fantastic.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,678
    Another CA initiative getting lots of airplay is the push for everyone in the state to buy a new energy efficient water heater. Now I don't think any water heaters are made in USA at this time. So more money sent overseas to further erode our trade imbalance. Like you say, my guess is the cars the eco nerds will push for will be made in India and China. CA has not been a friend to the Domestics for decades. This EPA bowing to CARB will only make this recession longer and harder for much of the USA.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Thank you for de-pigeonholing me. That was an appreciated gesture on your part.

    I think it's exciting to see how many MPG I can squeak out of my TCH.

    It's enjoyable for me to fill my tank up only every 25-35 days.

    I'm not interested in a road-hugging, take-this-55-mph-curve-at-85-mph vehicle.

    Give me an electric car with 20 mile range for my commute, and as long as it seats 4, goes at least 65 mph, and has an air conditioner, I'm good.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 32,885
    Just like with the new light bulbs, eh.

    It's just another battle front for the globalization proponents, it seems.
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