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Will Green Cars Be Exciting To Drive And Enjoyable To Own?

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  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    I see nothing at all wrong with that.

    Were you not complaining somewhere on these forums about a gas station on every corner?

    I can't see how things could be worse off if we had a smaller number of gas stations.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,043
    I can't see how things could be worse off if we had a smaller number of gas stations.

    It will mostly affect the small station owners that keep the prices competitive. I guess you missed the drift of what that will really accomplish. Your nothing is clean enough mentality is coming through loud and clear. People are not important in your world. Only government regulations. For me the longer I live in CA the more I feel out of place. I don't like worthless laws that make life tough for the working class. They are the ones that pay for such foolishness.
  • Gagrice,
    Its not that, Larsb is a socialist. Its a deep political belief. The good of any one individual is dependent on the good of all individuals. Your individual rights are not of great consequence, nor are person freedoms. It is all about the collective.

    I don't think that is going to fly in the US. In fact, one of my friends in CA is complaining that the new laws are going to screw California as they are going to get a limited selection of small, possibly undesirable cars, while the 43 states not tagging along will get whatever they like.

    I am also amused by the number of people out west with a Pirus and a BMW, so they do have something that is actually fun to drive in addition to their commuter pod. You also see a lot of driveways with a Prius and a large SUV. Maybe they are trying to balance out?

    I appreciate those that drive a Prius and are willing to make that sacrifice. To them, driving might not be anything pleasant to them anyway, so they might not see it as a sacrifice. I am thankful for them. :D
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    ..

    Gary, "people" are the MAIN reason for environmental caretaking !!!

    We need to take care of the world and keep the air clean so the people can live healthy and happy lives !!!
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    I am no socialist, sir.

    I have voted Republican my whole life.

    I just realize that sometimes, people, when left of their own accord, are not smart enough or capable enough or willful enough to do the CORRECT, unselfish thing.

    That's where guvmint and laws and mandates need to step in and help people take care of themselves.

    How dirty would the air be if leaded fuel had not been outlawed? DDT? What if the EPA had never been formed?

    Can you imagine the wasteland we'd be living if if the Guvmint did not force private industry to clean up after themselves !!?!?!?!?!?
  • Fair enough,
    So back on topic, do you feel that "green" cars will be:
    1. Exciting to drive?
    2. Enjoyable to own?

    btw i have been following the photo radar conversation also...you seem to have a very European view of things, kind of what made me align you with something of a socialist mentality. Thats not a dig at all, just seemed to be a lot of similarities there.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,949
    Instead, the gubbamint simply exports that ecological wasteland to China, which it worked feverishly to open under the old GOP, and that's where the next green cars will probably be made. Fantastic.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,043
    Another CA initiative getting lots of airplay is the push for everyone in the state to buy a new energy efficient water heater. Now I don't think any water heaters are made in USA at this time. So more money sent overseas to further erode our trade imbalance. Like you say, my guess is the cars the eco nerds will push for will be made in India and China. CA has not been a friend to the Domestics for decades. This EPA bowing to CARB will only make this recession longer and harder for much of the USA.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Thank you for de-pigeonholing me. That was an appreciated gesture on your part.

    I think it's exciting to see how many MPG I can squeak out of my TCH.

    It's enjoyable for me to fill my tank up only every 25-35 days.

    I'm not interested in a road-hugging, take-this-55-mph-curve-at-85-mph vehicle.

    Give me an electric car with 20 mile range for my commute, and as long as it seats 4, goes at least 65 mph, and has an air conditioner, I'm good.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,949
    Just like with the new light bulbs, eh.

    It's just another battle front for the globalization proponents, it seems.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Let me tell you what I did to reduce my water heating costs.

    I bought a "heat pump electric water heater assist device" that has my electric water heating costs for the year down to less than $50 PER YEAR. Not a misprint

    Look up the AirTap. It's awesome. I paid $549 with shipping, and the heating elements in my water heater have been turned off since July 2008.
  • boaz47boaz47 Posts: 2,750
    Nippon has a valid point. We will need public transportation and the government will be the driving force in moving us in that direction. We as a country swing like a pendulum politically and we are in a full socialist swing at the moment. It is true that with a good public transportation system cars become less important. I know people living in Nippons back yard, San Francisco, that don't own a car and can't see a reason to buy one. They are like the small car people that don't understand why people own a SUV or Pickup. In those forums I hear people saying, "if you need a truck or SUV why not just rent one for the few times they are necessary?"

    The attitude of the buying public here and in Japan and parts of Europe is moving more in the direction of cars being more of a necessary evil rather than a need or want.

    when we moved from the Mussel car era we went through a period of bland cars with new smog controls that sapped power from them. It took 20 to 25 years for cars to get back to the point that enthusiasts could say they were happier with the new generation of cars. I don't know if we will recover as enthusiasts from the next 25 years. Maybe we will have a better idea of what happened to the Wooly Mammoth.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,693
    Gagrice, CARB gotcha' down? It may soon be time to move to Arizona, buddy! ;-)

    But seriously, are cars, green or not, progressing in any sort of "exciting direction" even now? The roads become more and more crowded every day (a very California perspective, I realize), so there's hardly anywhere to drive for fun and stretch your legs anyway. Municipalities everywhere are harder and harder up for money, so police enforcement is clamping down ever harder on what little driving fun one might be able to extract from said roads.

    Meanwhile, the trend right now is toward less and less steering feel (electric steering, ugh), heavier and heavier vehicles with their consequent loss of natural agility, higher and higher vehicles as manufacturers seek that magical butt height where one can sit on the driver's seat without moving even one inch upward or downward (thereby raising the vehicle's center of gravity enormously), more computers every year taking away driver controls, and everyone's idea of the biggest possible improvement to a vehicle being the addition of two or three more passive driver safety features (hello ABS, 22 airbags, lane departure control and warnings, 17 cameras pointing out in every direction to display extra information about surrounding obstacles in the middle of your dash, stability control, traction control, brakes that brake for you if you don't brake yourself, I'm barely getting started), thereby adding cost, complexity, and weight to already over-heavy, overly expensive vehicles.

    I say bring on the green movement. At least then cars might get lighter and use less gas. But will they be more exciting to drive? I think not, but they already aren't.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    To make these questions more relevant you have to allow a wide variety of versions of 'Exciting' and 'Enjoyable'..

    Is being fast and corner-hugging all there is to 'Exciting'? If so then all but a few of the SUVs, trucks are disqualified. An electric car using no gasoline with 4 motors on each of the 4 weels doing 0-60 in under 6 sec certainly qualifies.

    'Enjoyable'? How many buyers are there each year? 40 million? Well then you have 40 million versions of 'enjoyable'. Enjoyable for a youngster in his first car at 19 is pure unadulterated pleasure. The fact that it's a Versa doesn't matter one bit. Those from the George Halas School of Economics ( 'He throws around nickels like they were manhole covers.': Mike Ditka ) love the fact that their 4 cyl MT 1994 Toyota pickup has never missed a beat in 200,000+ miles. Now that's pure unadulterated pleasure.
  • Thank you for de-pigeonholing me. That was an appreciated gesture on your part.

    Yeah, sorry I didn't mean to do that in the first place.

    Give me an electric car with 20 mile range for my commute, and as long as it seats 4, goes at least 65 mph, and has an air conditioner, I'm good.

    That is fantastic, I think the overwhelming majority of the motoring public feels that way. I think vehicles such as the new Fusion Hybrid (which bests the TCH F/E), Prius, Civic Hybrid etc are great for all of these drivers. If I can figure out a way to add a/c to my son's Little Tikes Cozy Coupe and hook up a washing machine motor, I think I have a business plan.

    That said, there are a number of driving enthusiasts that do like things like the way a car feels, the way it corners, the way it sounds, even the way it looks. I don't think that group is going to be totally excited about going along with a change, nor do I think that group is big enough to worry about. If one tries to legislate what others drive, I don't think that is going to work out so well.

    In Europe, they tax petrol, diesel and LPG. This keeps things in check and gives enough money back to make improvements in other areas. I'd be in favor of a system like this one, but wouldn't willingly accept being told what I am to like and dislike.
  • boaz47boaz47 Posts: 2,750
    The answer is????? No!!!! They will get us where we are going but driving for pleasure has already become a social crime in most car buyers minds. I also would give up a lot for a practical EV or even a practical diesel, by anyone but VW. VW dependability shows the Germans are still mad about the second world war.

    The day of the bare bones sports car are gone. The day of the no ABS no Skid control sports Coupe is almost gone. Computer control is here to stay and it will only become more intrusive. Just a fact of what the future holds.

    And will anyone but those of us old enough to remember MGs, TRs old Porsche sportsters care? Nope. All people really want is something that starts and gets them where they are going with as little input from them as they can get away with. As a example, Ford may sell more radios that you can talk to than they do manual transmissions. The next generation will care even less because they are plugged into technology far more than we are.
  • Is being fast and corner-hugging all there is to 'Exciting'? If so then all but a few of the SUVs, trucks are disqualified. An electric car using no gasoline with 4 motors on each of the 4 weels doing 0-60 in under 6 sec certainly qualifies.

    In my personal opinion, yes, the Tesla qualifies (on paper) as being enjoyable and exciting to drive. Since I've never driven one because they don't exactly exist yet, I don't know...fictitious cars don't count. Also, at a cost of $100,000, I don't see it as being more fun then say, S2000 or WRX at 30% the cost.

    Secondly, other people really seem to enjoy tromping through the woods and mud. An SUV might be very exciting to them, if totally dull to me.

    'Enjoyable'? How many buyers are there each year? 40 million? Well then you have 40 million versions of 'enjoyable'. Enjoyable for a youngster in his first car at 19 is pure unadulterated pleasure. The fact that it's a Versa doesn't matter one bit. Those from the George Halas School of Economics ( 'He throws around nickels like they were manhole covers.': Mike Ditka ) love the fact that their 4 cyl MT 1994 Toyota pickup has never missed a beat in 200,000+ miles. Now that's pure unadulterated pleasure.

    40 million would be a a dream world at this point. Its expected that 12-12.5 million units will move in North America in 2009. I am missing your point about volume and buyers and enjoyable.
    If you mean each person has their own purchase criteria, I would totally agree with that statement, and I think it supports my argument that choices are a good thing. :shades:
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    There's also about 30 million USED vehcle buyers every year. The total is over 40 mllion annually.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,043
    I say bring on the green movement. At least then cars might get lighter and use less gas. But will they be more exciting to drive? I think not, but they already aren't.

    I would not count on a lighter more fuel efficient vehicle. One of the most fun vehicles I ever drove was a friends CRX. The EPA pretty much destroyed that car with all the crap you listed above. I don't like ABS, PQR and all the other driving aids. I like to feel the steering. By the time CA gets finished with any EV allowed in the state it will weigh 4000 lbs and be lucky to have a 25 mile range.
  • There's also about 30 million USED vehcle buyers every year. The total is over 40 mllion annually

    Ahh, thanks got it. But then are you in agreement with me that choice is a good thing, so each of those 12 million or 40 million or whatever customers can find exactly what meets their needs and desires?
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,693
    In my personal opinion, yes, the Tesla qualifies (on paper) as being enjoyable and exciting to drive. Since I've never driven one because they don't exactly exist yet, I don't know...fictitious cars don't count

    Umm, they have already delivered over 100 to customers, they started building them last year. So, fictitious? No. Over $100K? Yes, so not many folks will be able to take advantage of this "green revolution" just yet. ;-)

    gagrice: I would not count on a lighter more fuel efficient vehicle. One of the most fun vehicles I ever drove was a friends CRX. The EPA pretty much destroyed that car with all the crap you listed above.

    But let's face it, if you had the chance to buy a brand new CRX this year, 1800 pounds, 100 hp, 0-60 in 7 secs, hunkered down, with a 92 inch wheelbase just like the CRXs of yore, would you buy one? I think you might stick with your SUV, and the problem in general for folks like me is that there are a lot of people who prefer big, heavy, and remote to small, light, and involved in the drive. Now electric propulsion looks to make a big go of it in the next 20 years, and even the engine note will go away in favor of a distant hum....

    :-(

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,043
    I will always keep an SUV for traveling. I am always looking for a good little runabout for errands and shopping. I thought the CRX was a cool little vehicle. I was 20 years younger and more flexible getting in and out of a vehicle. At the time I had a 1984 full Bronco for my main vehicle. I have always had a PU or SUV and cannot imagine being without one or the other. A car is for either pleasure or shopping. Not my idea of an ideal vehicle for travel. If the stars aligned and some auto maker sells a little box like the xB with battery power. I think I would get one. If the Tax Credit is not just smoke and mirrors.
  • boaz47boaz47 Posts: 2,750
    I agree many of us simply couldn't live our lifestyle with just a small car. But as the years go on a car becomes less important. I would gladly drive a EV around town for trips to the store or is I still had to commute that would work well. For the every day 9-5 job who would miss the sound of a ICE? Weekends could be different but not much. Our roads are getting straighter. Our police are getting more vigilant. Driving down Ortega highway is a sure way to get a ticket anymore unless you slow for the corners.

    You can still fly down the highway on 10 through Texas but a SUV does that as well if not better than any car. Who doesn't use cruise control?

    I believe the future will be all about comfort and functionality. EVs, Hybrids maybe small diesels will become the norm and driving will less intensive.
  • I am an engaged driver. I need to have feedback and feeling with the machine and the roadway. It doesn't necessarily have to be Formula 1 level performance, but there has to be something there or I see no point in driving it or using it.

    Push come to shove, I will restore an older vehicle just to have something that has a sense of being. Hybrids don't do it for me. Bland econoboxes that require you to shift down two gears and pushing the throttle to the floor to get enough power to climb it without holding up traffic behind you also doesn't endear me to something.

    I have been in highly comfortable vehicles. They are just a thing. I have been in and owned vehicles that had character and were responsive. Those are the kind of vehicles that make driving more enjoyable and give me a reason to be engaged.

    If someone wants an electric only vehicle, they are welcome to it. I don't want one. Even a hybrid must have something more than just a high fuel economy rating to make it worth buying. Diesel engines in vehicles that have a sense of being would be nice. Then again, give me a diesel Kawasaki KLR650, as are made for the United States military, particularly the Marine Corps, and I would be rather happy to ride it. With a fuel economy rating of 90 to 100 miles per gallon one of those bikes beats the capabilities of every hybrid made today and allows one to enjoy the trip from point A to point B.
  • mattandimattandi Posts: 588
    So, I am borrowing my Dad's Prius. We might by one, might not. No, it ain't the most exciting thing to drive.

    Anyway, I went to pick up my daughter from school. A charter elementary that does not provide transportation. Parents proceed through a kiss-n-go line before and after school to drop off and retrieve their little angels. Usually the teachers in the afternoon have the kids waiting for the cars as they pull up, but of course this afternoon no one recognizes the car I am driving. They recognize me and get my daughter up to get in the car. It only takes a few extra seconds, but in that time 2 teachers walk over to the car to look. I hear one of them say "That's a Prius, one of those hybrids." Now I love my wife and all, so don't think too ill of me, but this teacher is cute. She leans over and asks me "Did you just buy this?" I explain no, just borrowing it. She says, "Well, it's a cool car to borrow. I've always wanted to drive one."

    I felt like I was 16 again. Good looking girls looking at my car. Talking to me. Telling me my car is cool. Suggesting a ride.

    That was enjoyable.

    Then my daughter asked for a drink.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    I've always wanted to drive one.

    Yup, and then she wont feel so excited about it. :sick:
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,043
    Aside from the poor handling, the Prius is NOISY. I jumped out of my Sequoia and into my buddies 2009 Prius to go to lunch. I expected a quiet smooth ride. Anything but that. Way too much road noise. Only slightly better than a Yaris. Plus it was rough riding on our 3rd world streets in So California. I don't need a yuppie chick magnet. Been there and done that. The Jetta TDI is a better way to get 45 MPG. Plus a LOT more fun to drive.
  • mattandimattandi Posts: 588
    Yup, and then she wont feel so excited about it

    lol, most likely.
  • mattandimattandi Posts: 588
    The Prius is very utilitarian and spartan. Not a very comfortable car, and it is noisy. The rear visibility sucks. I keep expecting more "zip" and am repeatedly disappointed.

    For what it does I suppose the Prius is not horrible. I kinda look at it as proof of concept.

    lol at yuppie chick magnet. I don't need one either. It was just a funny moment.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    No they are not. I ride in a Prius all the time, one of my co-workers has one, and it's nearly just as quiet as my Camry.

    What "noise" did you think you heard?
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