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Will Green Cars Be Exciting To Drive And Enjoyable To Own?

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    You only want the facts you want to read

    I just want a news source with no agenda.

    It's not fair or accurate to link R&D costs to the few EVs that have been produced so far. That keeps diminishing over time, in fact I'm sure it's diminished since the $250,000 figure was first used. The article says up to $49k over cost, so that's already down to $89k at most (how I interpret "up to").

    Reminds me of the junk science that compared the Hummer to the Prius. It was all to easy to discredit the rather ridiculous assumptions they made.

    Re-do that math, 3 million+ hybrids later.
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,140
    I don't watch anything now but Diners, Drive-in and Dives.

    Wait, you fell off the wagon? Now that's news. :shades:

    NASCAR continues to green up:

    "An ambitious NASCAR environmental-awareness program is now in the works in the run-up to Earth Day."

    NASCAR Ramps Up Green Program

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  • texasestexases Posts: 5,531
    "The number of trees to be planted will, NASCAR says, essentially eliminate the sport's carbon footprint by absorbing a volume of carbon emissions approximately equal to those produced by racecars in NASCAR's three national touring series."

    WHAT A STUNNING LOAD OF BS! Sorry for the caps, but I am shouting at the screen right now. As if the racecar emissions amounted to ANYTHING. How about the 100,000 fans driving to see the race???
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,560
    edited April 2013
    Some people are just bitter about a couple of Novembers, and the public not believing those who could "save us" :sick:

    Here's how I see it - the competitors have received federal subsidies to develop their hybrids and similar cars. We can play the same game, or impose compensating penalties on their cars.

    I'd rather sink money into cars than ungrateful parasitic nations.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    We can't be saved. People here think cheap fuel is a constitutional right.

    Every administration I can remember has talked about an energy policy yet we're as dependent as ever on foreign oil. OPEC has way too much power.

    I get what Gary is saying, the road to heck is paved with good intentions. Laws have to be carefully written and with no loopholes, else we get the parasites you mention.

    It's hard not to be protectionist, though. Not easy striking that balance.
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,531
    "yet we're as dependent as ever on foreign oil. OPEC has way too much power. "

    Not true, there's been a huge increase in N. American oil production, and a corresponding drop in oil imports.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    edited April 2013
    China will more than pick up whatever slack there is, though. :sick:

    Glad to hear there's some progress.
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,531
    The recent low in domestic crude production was about 5 million a day, now up to about 7.5 million barrels a day, while imports peaked at a bit over 10 million a day, now dropping under 8 million a day. So we've gone from about 2:1 to 1:1.

    But you're right, world demand keeps prices up. Folks hoping for a major drop in crude prices will be disappointed. I would only expect that with the next major world (eastern hemisphere in particular) recession.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Could not find recent charts, but here's one that is a couple of years old:

    http://www.mcoscillator.com/data/charts/weekly/oil-imports.gif

    Looks like imported oil did peak and start to drop, and from what you're saying those lines have intersected again, right?

    Would be nice to have a 3rd data point - oil prices, charted as well.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,891
    It's not fair or accurate to link R&D costs to the few EVs that have been produced so far.

    And why not? That is how businesses have to run. You don't think Apple includes R&D in the cost of their products. Subsidies only muddy the water. They DO count against the cost. Just comes out of the tax payers pocket.

    I am not convinced the CNW study was flawed. After all the only people refuting it had a political agenda. Something you do not like. My guess is a 2004 Hummer will be around a lot longer than a 2004 Prius. We have not even reached the 10 year mark with the 2nd Gen Prius. If the Hummer was still running 30 years and 300k miles and the Prius is ready for the smasher at 10 years it is obvious which is the most polluting. Even Toyota tapped their Prius at close to double the pollution in manufacture of a comparable gas only vehicle. Only time will tell.

    I would rather see a comparison of a gas hybrid against a comparable diesel running on biodiesel produced with algae or waste oil. Yet very little is spent on that most promising of green alternatives. The right palms have not been greased in our government.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    And why not?

    Because these studies put all the R&D costs on the early production cars (i.e. very near term).

    Did you know CNW came out with an update and the H2 was no longer rated ahead of the Prius? That's because they had to re-distribute R&D costs over a longer production run.

    That was many years ago. Imagine if they did that again with the 3 million Prius already sold.

    An iPhone is only new for a year, so it's fair to spread R&D costs for that model until the new model comes out.

    But HSD has been on the Prius since 1998, and is now still in use on 3 different models. They've sold over 3 million.

    Sure, they can say the Volt costs double by adding R&D costs, but now the Caddy ELR is here, so do you cut those in half? At a minimum they have to spread R&D costs for ALL projected output for the Volt and ELR for the entire production run of both models.

    Only time will tell

    For the Prius, even CNW admits the Hummer doesn't use less energy cradle to grave. They had an agenda and served their purpose. Do you really think any of those news outlets did a follow-up study to say "sorry we were wrong about the Prius?" Of course not.
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,531
    Here's all the info you could want from the EIA.

    Click on the items you want to plot, such as 'Domestic oil production' and 'Imports -> Crude oil' to see that these two curves are about to cross.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I would rather see a comparison of a gas hybrid against a comparable diesel running on biodiesel produced with algae or waste oil. Yet very little is spent on that most promising of green alternatives. The right palms have not been greased in our government.

    This is a different topic so I'll offer a separate response.

    Higher taxes on diesel are unfair, and that hurts even food prices for the poor. They should at least balance the taxes on diesel vs. gas. Around me diesel prices are ridivulous. Bio-diesel is even more ridiculous.

    I don't buy in to the diesel versus hybrid thing because you can have BOTH. How does 260mpg sound? XL1:

    http://green.autoblog.com/2013/04/01/vw-hints-hyper-efficient-260-mpg-xl1-could-- come-to-us/

    Show me a diesel without a hybrid electric assist that can do that.

    More down to earth, the CrossBlue concept sure looked interesting, and we may see the XL1 powertrain in the VW Up!

    Back to fuels....

    Biodiesel should get the same subsidies that Ethanol gets. Level the playing field. Just like with gas vs. diesel fuel taxes.

    WVO is not taxed at all but will always be very limited quantity. Some idiots in our government are going after them for taxes, I say they have too much time on their hands. :sick:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    these two curves are about to cross

    Maybe the government isn't doing so bad after all. ;)
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,531
    "Maybe the government isn't doing so bad after all."

    Good one. The only positive impact of the government on domestic oil production has been some initial partnership funding of the horizontal fracturing technology...
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,891
    Do you really think any of those news outlets did a follow-up study to say "sorry we were wrong about the Prius?" Of course not.

    The Prius is hardly a good example of all hybrids. Look at what a mess Honda has made of the genre. Hardly great examples of hybrid technology. And HSD was a stolen patent Toyota has to pay for on each unit. Not sure how well Ford is selling their versions of the Prius HSD. I know when my BIL was looking at the Escape hybrid it was nearly $10k more than the one he bought. He is getting 30 MPG on the highway so very happy with that. And you would think with high gas prices the Prius would be a good seller. They are down 22% over last year. Are hybrids going to lose market share to high mileage gas cars like the Corolla. The hot selling Lexus CT is down more than 50% in sales.

    My perspective on the CNW is longevity vs high mileage. I wonder if a new LS would last as long as our LS400 that is now 24 years old and still running very well. I cannot believe a Prius has the chance of lasting as many years as a Hummer. To me it is throw away technology like the iPhone.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,891
    Biodiesel should get the same subsidies that Ethanol gets. Level the playing field. Just like with gas vs. diesel fuel taxes.

    WVO is not taxed at all but will always be very limited quantity. Some idiots in our government are going after them for taxes, I say they have too much time on their hands.


    I totally agree on both counts. Those picking up WVO and processing it for fuel are doing the environment a BIG favor, by keeping that horrible stuff out of the sewer and dump sites as well as a cleaner burning fuel. I would be surprised if biodiesel gets 1% of the subsidies given to the Ethanol industry. Most unbiased studies claim ethanol is a net loss fuel. Both financially and environmentally.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    In terms of volume, the Prius is *the* hybrid.

    Ford has had decent success, too. Others are only playing catch up.

    And HSD was a stolen patent Toyota has to pay for on each unit

    Not really, though Ford and Toyota licensed each others' technology.

    Oil is cheap - look at the numbers above. Remember when a barrel was $140? It's >40% cheaper now.

    Hummer won't last because they were a fad car, and the fad is dead. What used to be a lawn ornament is now an embarrassment. Some one was saying a lot of them are bought up and shipped overseas.

    I doubt many of them will be miled up, and the 2nd shipment overseas doesn't exactly bode well for their footprint.

    Cars.com has nearly 9,000 used Prius for sale with over 100k miles and CNW said they wouldn't last that long.

    The guy from CNW admits on his own web site that he failed high school math 3 times. Imagine the dumbest guy in your math class - that's him. LOL
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,891
    The court found in favor of the US patent holder against Toyota on their HSD system in the Prius and several other hybrids including those licensed to Ford.

    The Hybrid Inventor Who Sued Toyota – And Won
    By Jalopnik
    07.22.10
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,891
    Hummer won't last because they were a fad car, and the fad is dead.

    The Hummer fad is dead because GM decided to dump it in the BK. Along with Pontiac. Has little to do with how well built it is. My wife sold her ranch to a family that has a H3. He totally trashed his MDX on the 2.7 mile fire road to the ranch. He has been driving the H3 every day across that horrible road since he bought it new in 2007. That to me is a testimonial to the H3 being a decent SUV. I don't like them and would not consider one myself. I have NO doubt it would outlast a Prius.

    Did it ever come out who paid for the CNW extensive study?
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,560
    Hummer was dying before that, so was Pontiac. H2 and H3 were just rebodied conventional SUVs for those with bad taste, size issues, too much money laying around, or combinations of all 3. H2 especially represented everything wrong with America, in vehicle form. Good riddance.

    MDX is a glorified minivan, not made for off road use.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I wasn't familiar with that case, and I'm a Terp (BS '90 and MS '93). Wifey as well.

    Go MD! My kids might go there, too.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I'm sure a Hummer is more durable than a people moving crossover, but what I doubt is that they will ever accumulate 300,000 miles, as was assumed (average).

    There isn't enough oil on the planet for every Hummer made to go that far. ;)
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,891
    That guy filed suit when the 2nd gen Prius came out with HSD in the 2004 model. There was a big debate here at Edmund's. Then it was forgotten. Originally the court awarded $25 per vehicle. Toyota appealed and the anti went up with the more expensive models like RXH and Highlander Hybrid. From that article it looks like Toyota settled for an undisclosed amount. Rumor has it at $98 per vehicle. Let's see 3 million hybrids at $98 each. He should be able to eat well for some time.
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,140
    edited April 2013
    Probably went out and bought a Cadillac Escalade Hybrid. :-)

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  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,891
    I'm sure a Hummer is more durable than a people moving crossover, but what I doubt is that they will ever accumulate 300,000 miles, as was assumed (average).

    I am sure the average Prius is more likely to reach the 109K miles than the average Hummer reaching 300k miles. Not many vehicles are kept running that many miles.

    I am still curious who would go to those lengths for a study that was obviously aimed at denigrating the Prius? Maybe GM as they were struggling at the time and were getting beat up by Toyota.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Let's see 3 million hybrids at $98 each

    Yeah but patent lawyers get $97 of it, so he probably ended up with $3M. ;)

    For a very short while I worked in the patent office at NIH, nice folks but pretty cut-throat business.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Good question, you wonder who funds a lot of these "studies".

    Companies like AMCI are hired and supposedly do independent analysis and comparisons with competitors, but you wonder, do they only report results that are favorable? For sure the results are sealed, since the only folks to ever comment on them are the manufacturers that hired them in the first place.

    Don't bite the hand that feeds.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    To elaborate a bit more, I imagine it could go like this:

    77% prefer Car B to Car A in handling
    66% prefer B over A in acceleration and response
    81% prefer B over A in braking performance
    ...
    70% prefer A over B in styling.

    Final Verdict: 7 out of 10 people prefer the styling of car A more than the leading competitor (they don't even mention the name, nor all the bad results).
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,891
    I think the best bang for the buck in green, fun driving will be the VW Golf GTD. Capable of 50 MPG and handle with all but the best sports cars.

    http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/driven/1211_2014_volkswagen_gtd/
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