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Will Green Cars Be Exciting To Drive And Enjoyable To Own?

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,619
    Bloomberg got it right--the rest got it entirely wrong--it's not "carbon credits"--carbon credits are something else entirely. There really should be no problem in differentiating the two, anymore than stocks are not bonds.

    One often see mistakes passed from one lazy journalist to another in American media, as it continues its death spiral into mediocrity.

    Please keep in mind I'm not commenting on the merit of "green credits" pro or con, or how/why Tesla profiting by them--- I'm just saying that they aren't carbon credits.

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  • texasestexases Posts: 5,539
    My problem with major government funding of EVs is not a good use of funds, for two reasons:

    1) basic battery technology. Tesla's vehicles make no economic sense with current battery technology. It's not a matter of 'just make more of them', the costs won't drop enough. Battery cost is determined by chemistry, and current batteries are simply too expensive. Maybe fund some battery research.

    2) what problem are they solving? EVs in a large part (over half of the US) result in equal or higher CO2 emissions, compared to proven, much cheaper hybrids. Spread those huge EV vehicle tax credits around a much larger number of hybrids and we'd be WAY better off. Or just drop the credits all together, neither CA or the US has one red cent to spare, seems to me.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,619
    I think EVs of the future will be well suited to heavily urban environments.

    There does seem to be a few societal shifts on the horizon.

    1. Lots of young people are flocking to the big cities and abandoning the 'burbs

    2. Big cities are finding increasing stress on their infrastructure, as well as noise and air pollution levels

    So smaller, quieter cars, "pay to enter" fees, electric buses---these may all team up to make big city living tolerable.

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  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,908
    I agree the various media sources are notorious for repeating fallacies. Something I find interesting is Bloomberg says Tesla took in $555 million in auto revenue on 4900 in sales. That means each Tesla sold for an average $113k. If Tesla only showed $11 million in net income with the $85 million in freebie credits, how will they continue when the Credits shrink as Bloomberg claims they will?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,619
    They have a sales target of 30,000 for the year 2014. They sold 4900 in the first quarter of 2013, so their 30K number is not pie in the sky--at 30,000 units, they should be able to make a profit without any credits to sell.

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  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,908
    edited June 2013
    I will be extremely surprised if they repeat last quarters sale of 4900 cars. We should know in about a week from now. They are going to have to do a lot better than they did in May selling only 1425 cars. Though that was the number one selling luxury flagship. The second place went to Mercedes with 1190 sold. I am wondering if the numbers for Tesla is World wide or US sales only?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,619
    Don't know that. They have outlets in other countries--Switzerland, Denmark, France, Italy, Monaco, and sales reps in other countries. They're also partnered with Daimler, Toyota and Panasonic.

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  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Posts: 5,682
    edited June 2013
    My problem with major government funding of EVs is not a good use of funds, for two reasons:

    1) basic battery technology. Tesla's vehicles make no economic sense with current battery technology. It's not a matter of 'just make more of them', the costs won't drop enough. Battery cost is determined by chemistry, and current batteries are simply too expensive. Maybe fund some battery research.

    2) what problem are they solving? EVs in a large part (over half of the US) result in equal or higher CO2 emissions, compared to proven, much cheaper hybrids. Spread those huge EV vehicle tax credits around a much larger number of hybrids and we'd be WAY better off. Or just drop the credits all together, neither CA or the US has one red cent to spare, seems to me.


    IMHO all-electric cars are still just a toy for the rich. I like the Tesla S sedan but $60,000 busts my budget wide open. I am looking at buying a little '67 VW Bug in white with a torn out back seat (with somebody's home-made contraption stuffed in there for fill up the space), missing front and rear bumpers and a 4-speed standard transmission for only $3,000. My point is this: I used to follow the all-electric early adopter deal more diligently but about a year ago I realized nobody was coming up with anything the average person could afford.

    Mitsubishi's i is fairly cheap and that is the one I would buy because I love my '08 Lancer GTS and the thing is rock-solid mechanically. I would trust Mitsubishi to make them right the first time. That rig is around $20,000. I could take the Bug west to Las Cruces to go play for around $16.00 (there and back to Alamo). But my point is this: say I want to continue west to Willcox and Tucson, AZ, for an extended trip like my wife and I did a couple of days ago. Interestingly the '08 Lancer GTS gets about 25 mpg with the A/C on on I-10, the Bug would have no A/C, but would get about 30mpg on the freeway. The '14 Mitsubishi i would need ta sit at a charge-up center for a 200amp charge of about an hour.

    But where would I go for this? New Mexico State University? Do they even have one? I suppose I could get an app for my Android that would seek these stations out, but I have yet to come across any reading that Las Cruces or Alamogordo even have one all-electric car charging station yet at all. Being slow to adapt is killing the start-up of the all-electric car industry. It's a big buzz-kill to people like me who are interested in adopting to all-electrics. My birth town of Seattle and neighboring Portland are already there and have the football and are running strong with it, however.

    Yeah, it makes more sense now to buy a Volt than it does to buy an i or a Leaf. For those of us who get adventurous on the road and want to drive a ways. The Volt makes the most sense for a case like this.

    2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Posts: 4,193
    For the next several years, at least, I wouldn't even dream about using a EV for long distance travel.
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,209
    "I-Eloop is short for "intelligent energy loop." The automaker describes the setup as a capacitor-based regenerative engine braking system that converts a car's kinetic energy into electricity as the car decelerates. The system is unique because the energy it releases can power everything from headlights to the car's audio system."

    Let's just hope it's not an iFlop.

    2014 Mazda 6 With Fuel-Saving i-Eloop Technology Priced

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,619
    whoa! Better not discharge that capacitor with your screwdriver! :P

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  • texasestexases Posts: 5,539
    "The 2014 Mazda 6 with i-Eloop technology returns 28 mpg in city driving and 40 mpg on the highway, according to the EPA. The non i-Eloop-equipped Mazda 6 returns 26 mpg in city driving and 38 mpg on the highway when equipped with a six-speed automatic transmission. "

    Sure is a lot of money for a 2 mpg boost...
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,619
    Well you could buy one of those bolt-on hydrogen generators on eBay and get 50% better gas mileage, decrease your emissions and clean your engine---all for $69! :P

    What Mazda doesn't know, Harry P. Smith in his garage in Cleveland has figured out!

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  • texasestexases Posts: 5,539
    $69?? Heck, give me a Mason jar, two wires, and a rubber hose, I'm there! $5 max!

    I'm surprised (and thankful) that HHO has stopped cropping up on the boards I frequent - or is it hiding out somewhere else on Edmunds? Hope not!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,619
    unfortunately, HHO generators still persist in the marketplace. It's pretty much a "faith-based" cult at this point and no amount of science, or reasoning, is going to change the believer's mind.

    What the HHO scam artists have done is package the kits with electronic devices that re-map the 02 sensor or the engine's ECM---a very bad idea, as you can imagine---to give the illusion of a MPG increase (at the cost of a very lean-running engine).

    Other 'demonstrations' of the HHO generator either apply to tiny little lawnmower engines, or are tricks, wherein extra hidden hydrogen is injected into the engine during the demonstration.

    I suppose if you had a 480V electrolysis system in the trunk, it might work a little.

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  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,908
    The 2014 Mazda 6 with 2.5L automatic, is EPA rated at 28/40 without iFop brakes. Sounds like an expensive gimmick like the auto stop on my 2005 GMC Hybrid PU truck. Lots of added expense with NO real gain. Get some brownie points from the Eco-Nuts and let the Consumer pick up the tab.
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,209
    edited July 2013
    Well, 21/30 was the EPA mpg for the 2013 Mazda 6. Looks like a big boost to Mazda's CAFE numbers going to 28/40.

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  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,908
    Must be their new SIDI engine. I don't think it is any electronic wizardry.
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,209
    "The i3 is being looked upon by the German carmaker as a whole new chapter in the age of the automobile — one in which new solutions in lightweight construction, a clever new production process, high levels of overall efficiency and traditional driving fun come together into one. Our drive of a preproduction prototype this week revealed it is perhaps the most engaging electric car of our times."

    2014 BMW i3 First Drive

    image

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  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,908
    I wondered what happened to the designer of the Pontiac Aztek when GM dumped them? Butt ugly with a paisley sort of paint job. :sick:
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,209
    edited July 2013
    It's still wearing pre-production camo, but I thought it looked pretty good. Looks more practical than the competition, although the Leaf hatch would work okay. I'm a bit dubious about those 19" tires though.

    image

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  • texasestexases Posts: 5,539
    Here's what seems to be a neat idea, that CNG tank doesn't look much bigger than a scuba tank! No extra drive train or expensive batteries needed, either.
    Combo CNG/gasoline car
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,209
    Interesting, but I still see CNG as more of a solution for short haul delivery trucks where a bigger compressor can refill a small fleet overnight.

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  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,908
    Not as bad from the side. Not big on suicide doors. Wonder what it will cost? Any guesses? What will the average miles per charge be with 4 people on board. Supposedly the New Volt will only be $30k so BMW will have to probably take a loss to move many of them. Carbon fiber cannot be that cheap? Have to give BMW credit getting it down to 2634 lb. That is 1100 lbs less than the Chevy Volt. It sits nicely for me. Just needs about 600 more miles range. :shades:
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,908
    I think that is a great idea if the Eaton solution to home fueling becomes reality. For those that want access to the HOV lanes with one driver the CA rules will not allow a combo set up. If those small tanks have the latest 25 year certification, that could be a great solution. The current Honda Civic GX is really the only game in town. If you can get the CarLab system installed with the home fueling for $3500 I think it is a winner.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaPosts: 394
    edited July 2013
    When did the BMW grills morph into Pontiac grills? ( or is it just the camo?) I can only imagine how expensive 155/70-19 tires are going to be, and how hard it is going to be to get them ( though at least they have a higher aspect ratio- don't know why they need to be 19 inchers though).
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,908
    They are probably low rolling resistance and run flat tires. BMW seems to be into those tires. You can bet they will not be cheap to replace. I cannot find them even listed anywhere. So count on big bucks from the BMW dealer.
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,209
    edited July 2013
    "The 2014 Focus Electric offers customers a fully contented, all-electric vehicle option," wrote Said Deep, a Ford spokesman, in response to an Edmunds query on Thursday. "The new starting MSRP keeps us competitive in the marketplace and is an important part of our commitment to provide customers with a range of electrified vehicles to choose from."

    The move by Ford follows a similar strategy by Nissan with its Leaf electric vehicle. The 2013 Nissan Leaf S starts at $29,650, including an $850 destination charge, reflecting a $6,400 price cut over the base 2012 Nissan Leaf. Nissan's price cut was announced at the 2013 Detroit Auto Show."

    2014 Ford Focus Electric Gets $4,000 Price Cut

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  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,908
    So when does the $7500 tax credit end? I know the manufacture limit is 200,000 vehicles, which is highly unlikely to be reached in the near future. Is it an open ended give away or did Congress allocate a certain amount?
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,539
    Lets see: $7,500/car X 200,000 cars X 5 makers (lets assume) = $7.5 BILLION.

    I bet we could achieve much more with that amount of money than we'll get from this...
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