Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Will Green Cars Be Exciting To Drive And Enjoyable To Own?

1545557596077

Comments

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,678
    My favorite draft horses are the Shires. And that is a rare white one. Here is the standard of the breed. Much better breed than Clydesdales. The Shires were almost wiped out when the tractor took their place. Their come back has not been as fast as the Belgian, Clydes and Percheron.

    image
  • Stever@EdmundsStever@Edmunds YooperlandPosts: 38,910
    Crappy (literally) range and high maintenance.

    No thanks. :D
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,678
    Crappy (literally) range and high maintenance.

    The people farming and using real HP seem to be doing well during this poor economy. They keep their farms spotless and don't have the huge payments on the big 4wheel drive John Deere. My problem was mixing the two and letting the modern farming deplete all my savings. I would try it again if I was younger and not so lazy.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Yeah but at least they have soul. ;)
  • Stever@EdmundsStever@Edmunds YooperlandPosts: 38,910
    Fun rebuttal from the car guy at the Wall St. Journal.

    "RECENTLY, CAPITALISTS were scandalized when Fiat and Chrysler Group Chairman Sergio Marchionne revealed that his company loses $10,000 apiece on the Fiat 500e, an electric retrofit of the wee-posh 500 built solely to satisfy California's zero-emission vehicle mandate and sold, for now, only in the Golden State. This sickening perversion of market forces—whereby a tiny fraction of a company's profits are used to mitigate harm caused by its products—was labeled "masochism" by Mr. Marchionne.

    Yeah, well, tough. It's the cost of doing business in the biggest vehicle market in the U.S., and a plain-fact acknowledgment that the automobile has public costs—impacts on air quality, climate and health, infrastructure, injury and death. Lest we forget. You can take issue with California's zero-emission vehicle methodology, and you can reach different conclusions with regard to electric vehicles' value to consumers; but it's inarguable that car companies have an obligation to clean up the mess they make."
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,678
    but it's inarguable that car companies have an obligation to clean up the mess they make."

    I suppose you could make that argument about most everything we buy. What is the total impact of the iPhone on the Planet? Or the Solar panels and wind generators? And don't get me started on GMOs and Ethanol.

    If we become entwined in the World GW move, why don't we create emissions standards for all the automakers. So they don't have to engineer for every Tom, Dick and Moonbeam?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Cue the Prius c killing its owner, by The Onion:

    http://youtu.be/bXEddCLW3SM
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Posts: 4,118
    edited May 2013
    The price of Tesla (symbol TSLA) stock has been soaring. The stock's spike may portend future success for the company, or or it could be a bubble. We'll know in time.

    CR's endorsement may give a number of wealthy fence sitters sufficient confidence to buy a new Model S, especially now that they have some assurance regarding depreciation.

    While I won't have a Tesla in my garage any time soon, I'm not as dismissive of this car as I had been. Also, I'd be inclined to wait for the introduction of a more mass market model than the S.
  • MrShift@EdmundsMrShift@Edmunds Posts: 43,626
    edited May 2013
    TESLA is successful because they make a good CAR, not a good electric car.

    As for California, no automaker's CEO is so ignorant that he doesn't know that California has the 8th largest economy in the world. :surprise:

    One isn't marketing to a state, one is marketing to a country, so to speak.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Posts: 4,118
    edited May 2013
    The fact that Tesla is a domestic company that makes good cars in our country will appeal to some people.

    Will Teslas be competitive without government assistance and tax subsidies?
  • MrShift@EdmundsMrShift@Edmunds Posts: 43,626
    Excellent question. I have no idea what their actual margins are per car.

    But subsidy in the market place is not a new idea....I mean directly or indirectly gasoline and mortgage payments are "subsidized", through tax breaks for instance.

    There are still too many "What Ifs" to judge the future of pure electric cars like the TESLA.

    What if gasoline goes to $10 a gallon

    What if there is a huge breakthrough in battery technology, driving efficiency up and cost down

    blah, blah

    Some folks compare Tesla to say Tucker but I don't think that's fair, because the Tucker was not a well-sorted product, but I have to say the Tesla seems every bit as good a car as a BMW or Audi or Lexus.

    As for California "pushing pollution to other states"----well, that is true of anyone using an electric car anywhere in the USA.

    In Texas, for instance, your electric car would actually be powered by natural gas, being burned....somewhere....
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Posts: 4,118
    I believe a big breakthrough in battery technology will be required for electric cars to go mainstream, without special subsidies. It may happen, and probably will, but there doesn't seem to be anything beyond lithium ion batteries currently. In the meantime, ICEs and transmissions continue to become increasingly efficient.
  • MrShift@EdmundsMrShift@Edmunds Posts: 43,626
    there's a piece of the USA market for every type of vehicle and we'll be seeing an increasing "salad" of gas, diesel, hybrid gas, hybrid diesel, hybrid electric, pure electric and of course the occasional gyro-gearloose pedal cars, sail cars, perpetual motion machines, spring cars, flywheel cars, solar cars, etc.

    Actually flywheel technology isn't out of the question as part of hybrid tech.
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,423
    How 'green' is an EV when wind power is part of the equation?
    Wind farms get pass on eagle deaths
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    edited May 2013
    Will Teslas be competitive without government assistance and tax subsidies?

    I think so...this is a $90k car once you equip it, $7500 makes little/no difference at that price.

    Also, it's price competitive with flagships from BMW & Mercedes.

    A Volt costs $40k, while the Cruze costs half as much. Volt is even based on the Cruze, only smaller, 4 instead of 5 seats.

    So in that segment the EV costs 100% more to make.

    Tesla costs the same as other flagships, not any more.

    Here's the CR review. 99 pts makes it the best scoring vehicle ever:

    http://youtu.be/458TLFRkAlk

    Here's a sit down with the senior editors, they list some of the reasons they like it. Like shifty said, it's a good car, period. Not just a good EV.

    http://youtu.be/EXP4Do1xPGk
  • MrShift@EdmundsMrShift@Edmunds Posts: 43,626
    It's an interesting question. I'm a firm believer in assessing energy companies for all environmental damage.

    The oil spill fines are a different matter--that was just carelessness. But electrocution of eagles or vega-matic-ing them is another type of consideration.

    Having a fondness for owls, I know that a pair of mating owls can easily gobble up over 600 rodents while hatching their young, so wiping out all the eagles in the world might not be a great trade-off for energy independence. It's really a subject beyond my knowledge.

    Interesting to think about though. Not something we see in the electric car ads, now is it?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Dodge should bring back the Hemi dude with the mullet, have them drinking beers on the hood of a Challenger. Then they see a (fake) Eagle get electrocuted on a power line, and call the po-po using the UConnect interface.

    I should be in marketing. ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I think this guy owns a wind farm, the eagles were getting back at him!

    http://youtu.be/MoqOYACbFjI
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,678
    How much of that new car you bought subsidized some fatcat's new Tesla????

    Tesla’s biggest windfall has been the cash payments it extracts from rival car makers (and their customers), via its sale of zero-emission credits. A number of states including California require that traditional car makers reach certain production quotas of zero-emission vehicles—or to purchase credits if they cannot. Tesla is a main supplier.

    A Morgan Stanley MS +0.41% report in April said Tesla made $40.5 million on credits in 2012, and that it could collect $250 million in 2013. Tesla acknowledged in a recent SEC filing that emissions credit sales hit $85 million in 2013′s first quarter alone—15% of its revenue, and the only reason it made a profit.

    Take away the credits and Tesla lost $53 million in the first quarter, or $10,000 per car sold. California’s zero-emission credits provided $67.9 million to the company in the first quarter, and the combination of that state’s credits and federal and local incentives can add up to $45,000 per Tesla sold, according to an analysis by the Los Angeles Times.

    It’s all just another government scam aiding special interests. Crony capitalism at its worst.


    http://www.calwatchdog.com/2013/05/26/tesla-just-a-tax-funded-government-project- /?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook
  • MrShift@EdmundsMrShift@Edmunds Posts: 43,626
    edited May 2013
    All governments invest in industries that are new, bringing them from R&D to "commercialization". In a sense, the government becomes the venture capitalist on behalf of the nation because private capital (especially now) is very risk averse. Every major industrialized government puts money into winners and sometimes into sink holes. They do this because they don't want their countries playing "catch up" in technologies of the future.

    Also keep in mind that government and private capital are teaming up on projects. Many of these companies one reads about are by no means getting all their capital from government.

    Right now, Green Tech is more about "progress" than "BoomTown". Tesla has a plausible business model and a good product; Fisker did not.
Sign In or Register to comment.