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Will Green Cars Be Exciting To Drive And Enjoyable To Own?

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  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,679
    The Internet you are now pleasantly typing on is a government baby

    Ah, but there is a huge difference in government R&D spending and handing over $500 million in tax payer dollars to a crony that just happens to have contributed to getting you elected.

    Grants to study at Universities, defense and NASA research are much easier for me to justify than what has been happening in recent years. We are batting a very low percentage with the Green Agenda. Battery technology today is not much better than it was 20 years ago. There is just something wrong in my mind with our guaranteeing half a billion dollar loans and having the company go bankrupt in less than a year. That looks to me like a planned transfer of tax dollars to friends in high places. I don't think you can find many permanent jobs created in the middle class from the $billions spent on the Green vaporous mist.
  • MrShift@EdmundsMrShift@Edmunds Posts: 43,647
    he's not a "crony"--he is what he is, which is brilliant, and he put his own money and his brains where his mouth is. If Musk is a crony, may god give America thousands more like him!
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,679
    edited June 2013
    Musk is brilliant. He is also a big political donor, not only to the current WH resident, but many others.

    Where I see his brilliance is in scamming the state of CA out of $85 million in Carbon Credits the first quarter of the year. No way would Tesla be profitable without the CC scam. I see him as a brilliant entrepreneur and visionary more than an inventor. He is obviously able to convince people to invest in what he is doing at the time. From PayPal to space exploration.

    He has been able to excite the stock market for TSLA to about 25% of the value of General Motors while selling less cars than the Corvette. Now that is brilliance. Will he be able to maintain his current high with lawsuits and legislation aimed at him? If you bought the stock it may be a good time to unload it.

    Pending law would block Tesla sales in New York

    Tesla's battle with dealership owners is coming to a head in New York, where legislators are considering a bill that would block the electric-car maker from directly selling vehicles in the state.

    http://money.cnn.com/2013/06/21/autos/tesla-new-york/index.html?section=money_to- - pstories&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fmoney_- - topstories+%28Top+Stories%29
  • MrShift@EdmundsMrShift@Edmunds Posts: 43,647
    It's not "carbon credits" by the way. I think you (and many people) confuse CC with “green credits”,which are sold to other automakers through a California program that requires a certain number of pollution-free cars per manufacturer.
    Also, these credits will be decreasing from now on, and there will be none for Tesla's planned overseas sales.

    The battle in New York and other states certainly suggests cronyism on a massive scale between legislators and automobile dealers, wherein the buying public will be prevented from eliminating the "middle man" in their new car purchases.

    Basically, as I see it, what we have here is a political defense of a archaic system of franchise protectionism---a throttling of free market commerce, in other words.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,679
    Basically, as I see it, what we have here is a political defense of a archaic system of franchise protectionism---a throttling of free market commerce, in other words.

    I did not realize so many states had such laws. It also seems to me it would be easier to sell franchises for the Tesla to existing dealers than set up these little kiosk type dealerships. I have never seen a Tesla or a Tesla dealership. Looks like it is in someone's home here in San Diego.

    I would be more concerned with service after sale. But if you have enough to throw away on a Tesla you can buy a service man to keep your car running.
  • MrShift@EdmundsMrShift@Edmunds Posts: 43,647
    Dealers could still service direct sales vehicles. In fact, the service departments of most dealerships are the major, and in some cases, the ONLY branch of their business that makes a profit.

    Direct sales might diminish the number of dealers somewhat but the ones that stick around could become more profitable than they are now.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,679
    So the big question for Tesla can they survive in only 5 states soon to be 4, if NY passes legislation against them. Looks like it is a case of hundreds of dealers with lots of political clout against Elon Musk and his fancy EV car for the rich.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,679
    It's not "carbon credits" by the way.

    Hmmm, seems that is what most folks consider them. You can call the scam on the people of CA anything you like.

    Tesla Motors (TSLA): ZEV Carbon Credits, Subsidies and the Fake Economy
    Tesla Motors (TSLA) has zero-emissions vehicle (ZEV) carbon credits manufactured by bureaucrats to thank for giving it some net income along with subsidies or tax breaks to car buyers for helping out the top line.

    Carbon Credits saved Tesla

    Tesla Motors Inc. (Nasdaq:TSLA), the Palo Alto-based maker of the sexy Model S electric sedan and the 2014 Model X SUV, made a considerable amount of its revenue this year not by selling electric cars, but by selling carbon credits to other automakers.

    http://www.ibtimes.com/teslas-first-ever-profit-came-thanks-selling-zero-emissio- n-credits-competitors-it-insists-its-not#

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-13/tesla-profit-aided-by-sales-of-californ- ia-u-s-emission-credits.html
  • Stever@EdmundsStever@Edmunds YooperlandPosts: 38,968
    edited June 2013
    And if the tide turns and Tesla gets a bunch of state franchise laws overturned, those Costco dealer programs could change so that you'd actually be buying from Costco (or at least from the manufacturer using Costco as the middleman).

    Next, Chinese built cars sold at Walmart.

    No wonder the dealers are running scared and hiding behind their community Little League contributions (they never say that it's money out of our pockets that's funding their charities of choice though).
  • MrShift@EdmundsMrShift@Edmunds Posts: 43,647
    Bloomberg got it right--the rest got it entirely wrong--it's not "carbon credits"--carbon credits are something else entirely. There really should be no problem in differentiating the two, anymore than stocks are not bonds.

    One often see mistakes passed from one lazy journalist to another in American media, as it continues its death spiral into mediocrity.

    Please keep in mind I'm not commenting on the merit of "green credits" pro or con, or how/why Tesla profiting by them--- I'm just saying that they aren't carbon credits.
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,424
    My problem with major government funding of EVs is not a good use of funds, for two reasons:

    1) basic battery technology. Tesla's vehicles make no economic sense with current battery technology. It's not a matter of 'just make more of them', the costs won't drop enough. Battery cost is determined by chemistry, and current batteries are simply too expensive. Maybe fund some battery research.

    2) what problem are they solving? EVs in a large part (over half of the US) result in equal or higher CO2 emissions, compared to proven, much cheaper hybrids. Spread those huge EV vehicle tax credits around a much larger number of hybrids and we'd be WAY better off. Or just drop the credits all together, neither CA or the US has one red cent to spare, seems to me.
  • MrShift@EdmundsMrShift@Edmunds Posts: 43,647
    I think EVs of the future will be well suited to heavily urban environments.

    There does seem to be a few societal shifts on the horizon.

    1. Lots of young people are flocking to the big cities and abandoning the 'burbs

    2. Big cities are finding increasing stress on their infrastructure, as well as noise and air pollution levels

    So smaller, quieter cars, "pay to enter" fees, electric buses---these may all team up to make big city living tolerable.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,679
    I agree the various media sources are notorious for repeating fallacies. Something I find interesting is Bloomberg says Tesla took in $555 million in auto revenue on 4900 in sales. That means each Tesla sold for an average $113k. If Tesla only showed $11 million in net income with the $85 million in freebie credits, how will they continue when the Credits shrink as Bloomberg claims they will?
  • MrShift@EdmundsMrShift@Edmunds Posts: 43,647
    They have a sales target of 30,000 for the year 2014. They sold 4900 in the first quarter of 2013, so their 30K number is not pie in the sky--at 30,000 units, they should be able to make a profit without any credits to sell.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,679
    edited June 2013
    I will be extremely surprised if they repeat last quarters sale of 4900 cars. We should know in about a week from now. They are going to have to do a lot better than they did in May selling only 1425 cars. Though that was the number one selling luxury flagship. The second place went to Mercedes with 1190 sold. I am wondering if the numbers for Tesla is World wide or US sales only?
  • MrShift@EdmundsMrShift@Edmunds Posts: 43,647
    Don't know that. They have outlets in other countries--Switzerland, Denmark, France, Italy, Monaco, and sales reps in other countries. They're also partnered with Daimler, Toyota and Panasonic.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Posts: 5,663
    edited June 2013
    My problem with major government funding of EVs is not a good use of funds, for two reasons:

    1) basic battery technology. Tesla's vehicles make no economic sense with current battery technology. It's not a matter of 'just make more of them', the costs won't drop enough. Battery cost is determined by chemistry, and current batteries are simply too expensive. Maybe fund some battery research.

    2) what problem are they solving? EVs in a large part (over half of the US) result in equal or higher CO2 emissions, compared to proven, much cheaper hybrids. Spread those huge EV vehicle tax credits around a much larger number of hybrids and we'd be WAY better off. Or just drop the credits all together, neither CA or the US has one red cent to spare, seems to me.


    IMHO all-electric cars are still just a toy for the rich. I like the Tesla S sedan but $60,000 busts my budget wide open. I am looking at buying a little '67 VW Bug in white with a torn out back seat (with somebody's home-made contraption stuffed in there for fill up the space), missing front and rear bumpers and a 4-speed standard transmission for only $3,000. My point is this: I used to follow the all-electric early adopter deal more diligently but about a year ago I realized nobody was coming up with anything the average person could afford.

    Mitsubishi's i is fairly cheap and that is the one I would buy because I love my '08 Lancer GTS and the thing is rock-solid mechanically. I would trust Mitsubishi to make them right the first time. That rig is around $20,000. I could take the Bug west to Las Cruces to go play for around $16.00 (there and back to Alamo). But my point is this: say I want to continue west to Willcox and Tucson, AZ, for an extended trip like my wife and I did a couple of days ago. Interestingly the '08 Lancer GTS gets about 25 mpg with the A/C on on I-10, the Bug would have no A/C, but would get about 30mpg on the freeway. The '14 Mitsubishi i would need ta sit at a charge-up center for a 200amp charge of about an hour.

    But where would I go for this? New Mexico State University? Do they even have one? I suppose I could get an app for my Android that would seek these stations out, but I have yet to come across any reading that Las Cruces or Alamogordo even have one all-electric car charging station yet at all. Being slow to adapt is killing the start-up of the all-electric car industry. It's a big buzz-kill to people like me who are interested in adopting to all-electrics. My birth town of Seattle and neighboring Portland are already there and have the football and are running strong with it, however.

    Yeah, it makes more sense now to buy a Volt than it does to buy an i or a Leaf. For those of us who get adventurous on the road and want to drive a ways. The Volt makes the most sense for a case like this.

    2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Posts: 4,119
    For the next several years, at least, I wouldn't even dream about using a EV for long distance travel.
  • Stever@EdmundsStever@Edmunds YooperlandPosts: 38,968
    "I-Eloop is short for "intelligent energy loop." The automaker describes the setup as a capacitor-based regenerative engine braking system that converts a car's kinetic energy into electricity as the car decelerates. The system is unique because the energy it releases can power everything from headlights to the car's audio system."

    Let's just hope it's not an iFlop.

    2014 Mazda 6 With Fuel-Saving i-Eloop Technology Priced
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