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What Does Subaru Know That Others Don't?

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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    DI is coming to GM and Ford. Early reports are very positive.

    Yeah, I know, a little late to the party...

    Bob
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm thinking Equinox and Ford's Ecoboost engines.

    Hyundai indeed, just launching now, right? The Santa Fe V6 is hugely improved.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Sonatas are being shipped to dealers now. They have ONLY I4 DI engines for 2011--quite a statement re commitment to the new FE regs. The all-new Accent and Elantra will also have DI I4s in the next year or so. Santa Fe V6 is old news, that SUV is due for a redesign.

    I am waiting to see a broad application for the Ford DIs e.g. Fusion, and the Malibu for GM. Although I think the new Regal will get a DI I4. The DI in the Equinox/Terrain is impressive for FE.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    So that officially brings DI to the mainstream sedan segment.

    Santa Fe is old but it did get the new engines.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    New for the Santa Fe, yes. Would have been more impressive if Hyundai had put their new 200 hp DI 2.4L into the base Santa Fe, instead of the non-DI unit. Maybe next year...
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The 2.4l was upgraded as well, though, wasn't it?

    Maybe it got an improved engine, but not Hyundai's best.
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    dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,165
    Totally. Forester was Motor Trend SUTY in 2008 and finished DEAD LAST this year in 4-car comparison. Ouch.... The major complaint was 4-speed transmission ("showing its age) and lack of certain amenities. Basically, while they did not say it was bad, but others excelled in something (price, fuel economy, size) and Forester did not. They might have overstated some concerns or somewhat spinned them, but I think it can be a problem.

    Subaru is VERY, VERY, VERY SLOW in introducing certain novelties, it takes them two or even three product cycles to actually get something into their mainstream trims, even as an option. They twice already invented market segments (crossover, fast but moderately priced compact) and then they conceded them to the competition. They held and even improved their sales on getting better product and not relying on "marginal" customer (one that is sensitive to economy). It is probably inevitable to lose market share (percentage wise, not in total numbers) to bigger players, as total number of sold vehicles increases, but they cannot sit there all happy because they were there first, or because they survived the worst. It is their chance to hold some of that percentage gain, but they have to keep improving the product.

    Bottom line: product, product, product, improvement, improvement, improvement.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

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    nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    They twice already invented market segments (crossover, fast but moderately priced compact)

    I appreciate Soob as much as the next guy and more than most, but I can't see how it can claim the title of market segment inventor. RAV4 and CRV beat the Forester to market by 2 years (I don't count the original Outback, as it was mostly a very clever marketing exercise using a mostly unmodified Legacy wagon). And as for sport compacts? Heck the WRX wasn't offered here for how long? We had Honda's SIs, Nissan SERs, and Ford SVTs here way before then, heck we had AWD turbo Celicas in 1990 and V-6 GTIs for how many years before the 2002 WRX debut?!

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They might have overstated some concerns or somewhat spinned them

    I think so....

    Looking at the specs, it ranks:

    #1 power-to-weight
    #2 in torque
    #1 in ground clearance
    #1 in turning circle
    lightest weight
    best weight distribution
    most towing
    best passing (tie)
    best brakes
    most grip (keep in mind the ground clearance)
    best overall performance (figure 8)
    best fuel economy

    And it cost $4-9 grand less than the others, and they put it in last?

    Just how high on their priority list is the number of gear ratios? Enough to ignore all the results?

    They need the CVT in there yesterday, but I think MT got a bit carried away criticizing the slushbox.
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    dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,165
    OK, I get the point. I disagree with your take on the Outback - it was not "unmodified".

    I would say thogh - WRX was the first moderately priced fast AWD compact on the market (I know small segment). It did make a splash when it came. In 2002 there was nothing like it and it did bring a wave of new quick compacts afterwards. (BTW, I believe SVT Focus was brought in '04 or so). However, by 2006-7 it became "old" and the new '08 WRX was trully pathetic. It's better now, but the world is moving fast, even at time of this crisis (or perhaps because of it).

    Point stays - Subaru brings fresh and new stuff in and then they do nothing for years and let watch the competition catching up ans passing them - mostly on convenience content and "cool factor".

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The 95 Outback was an appearance/tire package for the Legacy wagon, but in 1996 they actually raised the roof a bit and did more changes to the suspension.

    Tough call, but I think the 96 RAV4 really opened the segment, then came the 97 CR-V and then the 98 Forester.

    The Outback didn't truly become a crossover until 2010.

    Subaru withheld the WRX for a long time, so even though it may not have had any peers in 2002, it was still long overdue. I was active in the Subaru clubs in 1998-2002 or so, and then popularity exploded. I had kids so I stopped going, but they're as popular as ever.

    ***

    The key for SoA is DON'T GET COMPLACENT!

    Keep improving the cars steadily, else 2009 (perhaps 2010) will be the sales peak and they won't grow beyond that.
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    nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I think the 96 RAV4 really opened the segment, then came the 97 CR-V and then the 98 Forester.

    The Outback didn't truly become a crossover until 2010.

    Subaru withheld the WRX for a long time, so even though it may not have had any peers in 2002, it was still long overdue. I was active in the Subaru clubs in 1998-2002 or so, and then popularity exploded

    Couldn't (and didn't) have said it better myself regarding the Outback. And why did they wait so long to bring the WRX here? Think of the money they could have made, but they never capitalize on opportunities....

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They won WRC 95-97 and took until 2002 to get the WRX here.

    Club members had 2.5RS models but many of them put aftermarket turbos themselves rather than wait.
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    dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,165
    One of the dampers were emission standards, so I read they claimed. I think bottom line is WRX sells for $35K-40K, in other parts of the world (prices barely they get for STI here) and they knew they wouldn't get that much here in volumes justifying the certification. But I gather they found a way. As I recall, for example US '02-06 WRX had inferior rear brakes to those in Euro/JDM specs. I'm sure there were some other corners cut as well, especially inside. '08 was a true disaster - it nearly destroyed the franchise. Fortunately they wised up with '09. They have a few tricks to do before it trully comes back to its rightful place.

    As Juice said already - no complacency allowed. And stop the accountants from running the model trims. Things like no fog lights in standard STI are trully pathetic.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

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    millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    all i needed them to do is to produce enough V6 Legacy so I can buy them.
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    nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Subaru doesn't make any V-6s. It's the king of boxers....

    As for WRX, if VW can afford to sell GTIs for $25 grand and Subaru can't afford to do the same with WRXs, then it has a global problem. But I do get that they have to cut corners for NA just like VW does.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'd allow a $1500 cost penalty for the standard AWD, but then let's see a 6 speed manual and bigger brakes.

    Also make more options available a-la-carte.

    I love the STI, but its existence has limited what the WRX can be. That's not the case for the Mazdaspeed3 or the GTI, so it's a handicap Subaru should do away with.
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    nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    At $40K, STi is pricing itself out of the NA market. Too many really good RWD 300 hp sport coupes at that price point....another problem for Soob to fix!

    I heartily agree that it is WAY past time for all Subaru manuals to have 6 speeds, but especially the WRX.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Even if they dropped the STI, a 6 speed in a WRX would boost sales and more than make up for it.

    I see why it exists - it's a great halo car.

    Just don't limit what the WRX can be.
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "Subaru also has helped its sales by adding a handful of dealers - mostly in the "smile belt," rather than in the snowbelt regions were the brand is already strong - in the past year. The number now stands at around 600."

    Manufacturer Spotlight: Subaru Thriving Thanks to Brand Consistency (AutoObserver)

    "This could be the beginning of Subaru Manifest Destiny, as the maker of hardy all-wheel-drive cars tries to move beyond its heartland in the great, icy north to places where frost is seen mainly in the freezer."

    Snowbirds Dress Up for a Climate Change (New York Times)
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Hadn't seen that 2nd article yet.

    I disagree with this part:

    The Outback’s probable rivals include the Chevy Equinox, Honda CR-V, Toyota RAV4 and Ford Escape.

    That is the Forester's job. The Outback has the Venza and Crosstour.

    Cool to see David Sullivan quoted all the time given I've met him a few times. :shades:
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    robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Oh I think the Outback will be cross shopped against the those listed. It may be the Forester's job, but many folks will still cross shop the Outback.

    Heck, the Outback will be cross shopped against the Forester.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I could also see that type of cross-shopping, based on someone driving, or looking at, those SUVs and saying "do I really want something that big and high-centered?"

    The Outback is perhaps the *only* car that can do everything passably well, if say a family were forced to have just one car for everything.

    It can hold a lot, it's great in bad weather, it's easy to drive, it's good on gas, it has great ground clearance, you can add a hitch or roof pod no problem, it's Japanese so it's reliable, and you'll never have trouble selling it.

    Oh, okay, it's not pretty. But it's prettier than a Forester!! :P
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    british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Subaru doesn't do pretty. That was their deal with the devil then can have good, reliable, fuel efficient cars that will sell well but they will all be ugly.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Does Subaru even HAVE a styling department? :)
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Well, the fake hoodscoop on my Outback Limited can only be there for style. :P

    Maybe I can interest you in some gold pinstriping too?
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    nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    in those articles of American Subaru officials "crowing" and making smug statements, I SURE hope they don't rest on their laurels now.

    I would love to see them release a car-based pick-up, NOT convertible like the Baja was but just with a fixed bed behind the front seats. Make it AWD standard, base it on the Legacy, start it at $20K, I think they would sell a bunch.

    And of course I'm looking forward to the sport coupe, but it is still quite a long way out.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The car-based pickup platform has never been very successful, has it? Sounds like it makes a bad car and a bad pickup. :P

    Steve -- well MY hood scoop WORKS! :)
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    british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    They have this sledge hammer they keep in a closet.
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    morin2morin2 Member Posts: 399
    They may not be beautiful, but at least your eyes don't bleed like they would if you stared at a CR-V too long. I'd almost rather look at the hindquarters of an Aztek than almost any angle of the latest gen. CR-V.

    I'll take cute over tarted-up any day.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well it's true, the Subarus are BENIGNLY ugly. Let's call them "homely" then. They don't make babies jump out of their strollers like an Aztek might.
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    well MY hood scoop WORKS!

    Oh that's right. I forgot you kludged yours up to hold a bunch of back issues of Road & Track. :shades:

    Dunno, my Outback is hands down the most handsome thing in my garage. Although the Quest has its moments in the right light (like at night).
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    tdi_tantdi_tan Member Posts: 60
    with their newer models.... Subaru is thinking, people won't notice if we get rid of the rear viscous differential on the "volume" models/trim
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well if all you have in the garage is a Subaru and a Quest, I guess it IS the most handsome thing in the garage...of course, I mean when you aren't in there yourself. :shades:
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    fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    I don't think that Legacies and Outbacks have been particularly unattractive. Imprezzas are another matter.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yeah Imprezas are worse. I have a '97 Outback and I think it's pretty ugly to look at. Sheer chaos in design. Not too bad from the back.
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    british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    image

    That is all I have to say.
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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I think the current Forester is a really handsome vehicle. I also like the current Impreza 5-door styling.

    Having said that, all Subarus suffer from a weak and confused grille design, including the Forester and Impreza. Of the two, I find the Forester's grille to be the more attractive, but not by much. For some reason Subaru is really struggling in finding an attractive yet distinctive "corporate face" for their vehicles. The new Legacy and Outback are particularly poor in that regard.

    I also never cared for the oval Subaru logo. While I understand the concept, it's just not well designed.

    Of all the Asian brands, I find the current Suzuki to be the best looking by far. I'm really impressed by how attractive the new Kizashi is—and Suzuki has by far, the best logo of any Asian brand.

    Unlike other Asian brands, Suzuki is proud to promote their Japanese/Asian heritage. Their "S" logo has a very Japanese feel to it, and is a very powerful ID mark for the company. I also see Japanese typography applied to some of their motorcycles (see link). I like that a lot.

    http://images.nitrobahn.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/suzuki_- - hayabusa.jpg

    Here's the Kizashi link:

    http://www.suzukiauto.com/kizashi/?r=top

    Bob
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Okay I haven't see the new Forester "live" but I'm looking at a large photo, or seies of photos, and I'm not seeing "handsome" here. The back end is okay but the profile is .....regrettable....
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    nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I think the car-based pickup could be the next big thing. All the compact pickups are gone from the market. All the automakers are looking for big fuel economy gains in their trucks. AND we have seen several concepts like Toyota's ABAT in the last couple opf years.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think trucks like the Ford Ranger really own this market niche already.
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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    One thing about Subaru is that they always look better in person. Other than the weak grille, I find it to be among the best looking vehicles in its market segment.

    Bob
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well maybe so. The photos remind me of very dated, tired design features.

    But I'll go look at a real one in the showroom and let you know what I think.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That front end never bothered me, plus it was only around for a year or so. I think of this:

    image

    The designer (Zapatinas) had to compromise on some hard points that were already set, so he didn't get a clean sheet to design it.

    It also reminds me of the Maserati Kubang concept:

    image

    Any how, Subarus are supposed to be ugly, or at least quirky. This was just too "out there", even for Subaru buyers.

    The new Forester is a bit plain, but handsome and unoffensive. You can see why they went with a safe design, after poor Tribeca sales.

    I don't like the new Outback as much, but I do like the Legacy sedan, which reminds me of some Infinitis.
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    fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    I was amazed at how unattractive the original B9 Tribeca was. kind of like an early Saab up front. i think the fact that it was pretty pricey only made it worse. nothing like spending big money for an ugly car.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They restyled it, giving is a more generic look, and that never really help sales.

    I think it was just too small - GM and Ford upsized theirs so Subaru had one of the smallest entries in that segment.

    Americans shop for size-per-dollar, and that really hurt the value equation. 3rd row was too small and had no airbags to protect them (that's why I didn't buy it).

    image
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    british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Americans shop for size-per-dollar

    Man isn't that the truth.

    Had that happen the other day with people looking at New Volvos and New saabs.

    Wait the S40 is smaller then the 9-3 so it should be less. :cry:

    No it doesn't work that way sorry.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    A co-worker got a Range Rover Sport (man that thing is noooooiiice) and people don't stop asking why he didn't get the bigger LR4 for less.

    Just drive both.

    What else hurt the Tribeca?

    The original model only have a 3.0l engine, and ran on recommended premium fuel to boot. That's no big deal to a Rover shopper, but to the anti-snob shopper at the Subaru dealer it was. The 08 was restyled and got a 3.6l tuned for regular fuel.

    By then it was too late, and it was still smallish and pricey for the class.
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    british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    The Range Rover Sport is one of the greatest marketing moves I have ever seen.

    Take the T5 platform that the LR3/LR4 ride on give it a sexier bodystyle and charge 20,000 to 30,000 dollars more.

    Back when the LR3 and the Sport weren't avalibale with the same interior the LR3 might have cost less to make but you can get a LR4 with about the same interior as the Sport so I bet the Sport actually costs less to make then a fully loaded LR4.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I haven't been in an LR4, only a few LR3s. They were smart to upgrade those interiors - I imagine that's why a lot of people buy Rovers.
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