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2011 Hyundai Sonata

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Comments

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    ...compare a FWD to a RWD and see which one you can spin
    the tires on easier...


    I have. You can spin both pretty easily in slippery conditions, without the benefit of traction control. In fact, the more power/torque you have, the easier it is to spin the drive wheels no matter if it's RWD or FWD.

    If you are asking me which car handles better, e.g. a 3 Series (RWD) or an Elantra (about the same size, FWD), that's a pretty easy question to answer. And which car has close to 50/50 weight distribution?

    Why not put the engine in the back? Weight distribution, remember?

    And actually, the idea of putting the engine over the front drive wheels was ALL about space utilization, not about creating a better-handling car. Where are the drive wheels on a NASCAR racer--in the front or back?

    I read a comparo the other day about 3 sedans with over 500 hp each. The slowest ran 0-60 in 4.3 seconds. Save your money, and someday one of those could be yours! :)
  • If you read a little closer you will see I said "turning in a slippery condition" not
    spinning the wheels in a slippery condition you can do that w/ a bicycle.
    Brilliant deduction on more HP/torque easier to spin the wheels, that puts us
    back to the more HP versus the lack of.
    I didn't say anything about a 3 series or Elantra I think you brought those two cars
    up yourself for some reason, I won't comment one way or the other on either, since
    I have no experience w/ those, I don't buy cars in that class so my interest is in what I have and what they compare to not the Elantra, I'll take your word about those type cars, anyway this is centered around the Sonata topic, Elantra does not
    fit here. I think, Sonata only comes in front wheel drive and the I4 Sonata and the V6 Sonata is the topic.
    I do remember about the weight distribution thing, that is why the engine still sits in the front evidently, and where is the "engine" in the NASCAR? If the weight distribution would be a major player why did all the drive trane weight move to the front drive axles (including the transmission). that also reduces rear wheel weight.
    Someone made the statement recently about "nose heavy" creating some kind of
    issue like braking and handeling. The FWD has become a standard in the midsize
    class on the American market for a lot of years, it must be working pretty good.
    Now if the arm chair auto "engineers" have what they think is an improvement in the
    "dynamics" of FWD please contact a major auto maker, maybe!!!! we could all
    benefit from your expert thechnology, who knows you may get a large reward or a
    high paying job out of it, and if you could pull yourself away from your busy engineering schedule and let Hyundai know about this they can really make the 2011
    I4 a much better car. You know the Noble prize may be in order, WOW!!!

    Your comment about my finances don't belong here, and how did you become an
    expert on that issue too? It would take a genius w/ some kind of physic powers,
    since I don't really know you I guess I'll have to take your word there too!

    I already know about the over 500 HP 0-60 stats, the CTS VDI 6.2l and is probably
    the fastest production model in it's class (midsize luxery sedan) @ 3.7 0-60 and the
    price is some where in the $60,000+ range, and why would I know this off the top
    of my head, and I can assure you unlike some people I'm not a rocket scientest
    or a auto engineer w/ ESP!!! Now get your new found brain storm idea about FWD
    to the car industry so it can be incorparated in the neww 2011 cars.

    Hope you and everyone reading these posts have pleasant day!!!!!!!
  • Now if the arm chair auto "engineers" have what they think is an improvement in the "dynamics" of FWD please contact a major auto maker, maybe!!!!

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    I have worked as an engineer for two major suppliers to the auto-industry. Lear Corporation and NSK Bearing. I'm currently laid-off and pursuing an MBA full-time in hopes of leaving manufacturing for the "second half" of my career.

    The next generation of mid-size cars will be launched by major automakers around the world from 2011 through 2014. Hold onto your hats - they will have better quality, be more efficient and safer than anything we've seen. I think you'll be surprised by what's coming our way.

    This discussion started with regard to Hyundai not offering a V6 option in the 2011 Sonata. Sometimes you have to "agree to disagree". Another old saying goes something like this, "I can't always say yes, but I can say no obligingly."
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    What you said was, "spin the tires on easier". I don't see the word "turning" in there, do you? :confuse:

    If you don't understand why automakers went to FWD (space utilization, not performance or handling) in the mid-sized family car class and other cars that are not luxury cars or performance-oriented cars, I don't have the time to educate you. (And I doubt you'd pay any attention to what I have to say on it.) But there is a lot of info on this subject on the Web, if you are interested in learning more.

    BTW, NASCAR race cars don't fit here, this is about the Sonata. ;)

    Comments about "have a pleasant day" aside, I can see you are not interested in a civil and respectful discussion here, but just taking shots at people because they have a different opinion than you do, so... have fun posting to yourself! And, have a great day also! :)
  • Why do all internet forums get reduced to passive aggressive pissing matches? :confuse:
  • Backy I,m sorry for the the confusion on the spin the tires thing, but when you have time glance back at it, there is a comma after the word easier and "or" starts the
    part about maybe loosing some control on the turn on the wet road.
    I have an opinion on the (space utilization thing) may not be the same as yours or anyone else,s just an opinion. What I don't quite understand is the engine has
    pretty much been in the front of vehicles since they started mass producing them a
    long time ago. Several attempts were made to use a rear engine type car but didn't
    work out to well but at least it may have justified the reason to keep it in the front.
    With the majority of the drive trane being toward the front half of the car it is probably front heavy to start with. The drive shaft and the differential extending to
    the rear wheels did put a little weight toward the back end, the fuel tank in the back
    did also, giving a bit of weight distribution. Now to achieve (space utilization) every
    pound of the entire drive trane shifts to the engine compartment right over the FWD
    axle. But nothing was added to the rear end to compensate for the weight loss that
    went to the front. A good job at space utilization but all the weight distribution went 100% in the frontal area. What they did is easy to see but why did all the carmakers decide to do the same thing, It could be an engineering theory, does it
    accomplish what it was done for, all we can do is buy whats out there that meets our individual prefferances and hope what they do will improve the industry for everyone.

    On a personal note I apologize for any comment I made that may have caused hard feeling I guess I just got carried away and put us in the totally wrong direction .
    This is not my norm, I have just been put on a very strict diet by the VA and I think
    they are trying to make me loose about 200 lbs ( that is what I weigh) so I may be
    in a lot of trouble pretty soon so you may not be hearing me rum my head much longer. Thanks for being so patient with the elderly!
    sincerely: have a good day!!!!!
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 231
    I know the speculation was that there would be no V6 in the 2011 sonata, but I never thought hyundai would go through with that. I guess they're willing to forego the 10-15 percent of current sonata V6 owners - potentially a lot of sales. The new sonata looks impressive and I believe I would have given serious consideration to purchasing my first hyundai if it had a V6, but I have no interest any longer. No more 4 cylinders for me. I've driven the camry, accord, sonata and fusion 4 cylinders and a few others. They're fine for most people, but I won't own another 4 cyl so long as someone markets a 6 cylinder. 23/35 mpg with 200 hp sounds fine. But I see that the new mustang has 305 hp and has a 19/30 rating. 100+ additional hp costs only 4-5 mpg..... I have no interest in mustang, but just pointing it out. I wish hyundai luck with this car and I'm sure it will be a winner.
  • 19/30 is indeed impressive for a mustang, but 23/35 is still class leading. hyundai basically came up with something that will compete with the next gen camry and accord. i'm so impressed. now camy and accord has to look up to sonata. amazing accomplishment if you think about it. they were followers but not they are laeders.
  • also, i think hyundai doesn't want the next azera to compete with sonata. if you want 4banger go with sonata, if you want 280+hp v6 go with new azera(if they don't drop it). sonata v6 was almost as nice as azera, and people couldn't justify paying extra for azera. it's my speculation, but that's how i see it. azera is a very good car.

    or maybe hyundai will drop azera, so they can push new Amanti even more? i don't know. just my speculation.
  • akumaakuma Posts: 70
    the new Amanti/Cadenza/K7 is really nice. i think better than the new Sonata and more upscale and almost the same price (highline), base is about a 5k difference.
    here's a long advert (Korean) for the new Amanti. i hope the U.S. doesn't get a watered down version.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2AiitnVj5I
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    The new Amanti should be better than the Sonata, it's Kia's high-end car. The Optima competes with the Sonata. FWIW, the difference between the base Sonata and base Azera is also about $5k.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,786
    Wow. Love the styling of the 2011, although I worry a little about rear headroom.

    Will the 2011 Sonata be available with a manual trans?

    I have an 2002 Accord and a 2008 Accord.

    Love the 08, but the 02 is lacking some features--like it doesn't even have anti-lock brakes.

    Am now considering at least a little the Sonata...

    Is there a press release somewhere with full specs and features?

    It goes on sale in January, right?

    Again, wow. Love the GDI engine hwy mpg--35!!
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,786
    tenpin--it looks really impressive in the pix and on paper. I'm a loyal Honda owner, but here's what seems to possibly sway me in the direction of considering the Sonata for our next car.

    First, love the styling. I'd call the current Accord kind of a B when it comes to styling. It's grown on me in the two years we've owned it, but I'm never going to warm up all the way. The new Sonata I'd call an A or maybe even an A+. I think it's probably the best looking sedan in the segment.

    Second, love what I've read about the direct injection engine--more power and more mpg that the current Accord. What's not to like? Now, my 08 Accord's EX engine--a bit borrowed from the Acura line, I think--is very smooth and peppy. But if the Sonata engine is as good as they say, it might come quite close to the Accord EX in terms of smooothness. And the current Accord base (LX) engine is not as impressive....177 hp and it's bit louder and rougher. So, comparing an LX Accord to a GLS Sonata, it looks like the Sonata comes out ahead--and costs 2k or so less.

    Third, the features on the new Sonata are amazing. I had to get a top of the line Accord to get bluetooth, which is great. It looks the the entry level Sonata will have that feature. Ditto with things like XM, etc.

    6 speed manual looks to be available on the Sonata! I love Honda manuals, and I doubt right now I'd love a Hyundai as much, but I'm keeping an open mind and thinking about test driving the Sonata when it comes out.

    It looks like you can get navi on the base Sonata. Wow. Again, I love my 08 Accord EXL navi, and I think it represents great value for the money, but you can only get the navi on the top of the line Accord. To be able to get navi on the base Sonata seems like a real plus.

    And the new Sonata is made in the USA. I love my Ohio made Accords, and would like to buy a USA built vehicle the next time too...

    Hard to break my loyalty to Honda though...

    Questions about the new Sonata to be answered--How's the handling? Steering? Manual trans? Rear visibility? Rear headroom?
  • akumaakuma Posts: 70
    well i would say that this new Sonata (top loaded trim) blows away the current Amanti, and even the current Azera. i'm not even sure if there is much room for an Azera between the Sonata and Genesis, unless there are people that really want to spend $30-35k for yet another full size Hyundai (Sonata, Genesis, Equus) except with front wheel drive and a V6. i would also wager that the remaining Azeras sell for less than $25K fully loaded. the only reason the base MSRP of the Azera is $5k higher (than 2010 Sonata) is because a V6, 17" alloy wheels, power seats, and a few other options are already included.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,598
    I wish people would stop referring to standard equipment as "options."
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    If Hyundai sticks with I4s only in the Sonata, then I think there's room for a V6 "large" FWD sedan in the lineup, slotted between the Sonata and Genesis. A loaded Azera is just over $30k, about $5k less than a Genesis 3.8 with moonroof. Toyota has room for the Avalon, Nissan for the Maxima... why not Hyundai?
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,786
    I think they make a good point at the end of the article:

    "Going well beyond the current car’s it’s-good-for-the-money appeal, Hyundai appears to be on a tear with the Sonata in terms of design and class-leading four-cylinder horsepower, in addition to feature content and value. So far, so good, but the remaining question is a critical one: What about driving dynamics? The current Sonata suffers from excessive body roll, a platform that doesn’t feel as stiff as those of its top competitors, and slightly lazy shifts. In short, it needs to quicken its reflexes across the board. Here’s to hoping the chassis engineers take a hint from the “fluidic” part of the new design credo."
  • akumaakuma Posts: 70
    bhmr59: those "standard" features (V6, 17" alloy wheels, power seats, etc.) on the Azera are "options" on the Sonata.

    backy: when comparing apples to apples, the price difference between the Sonata and the Azera is only about $1-2k. the Sonata fully loaded is about $29,000 MSRP while the Azera is about $32,500 MSRP. however the last generation Sonata can't be equipped with power folding mirrors (i'm not even sure if the Sonata even has folding mirrors), power adjustable pedals (these two options aren't even available on the Genesis), power sunshade, power tilt and telescoping wheel, higher premium stereo (logic 7), memory settings for the seats/steering wheel, 3.8 liter engine, tire pressure monitoring and rain sensing wipers. but both of those MSRPs won't mean anything when the new Sonata comes out for under $20k. neither the turbo nor the hybrid will be available right away, so the first batch of Sonatas will probably top out around $25-28k depending on what features are standard and what new (expensive) options are available.

    the Azera is just an abysmal seller. the base Genesis is just a much better car than a fully loaded Azera, while the Azera is hardly better than the refreshed Sonata let alone the completely redesigned one. the Maxima and Camry have a long history; so do the Altima and the Avalon although about 3 generations less. but the Maxima/Altima and Camry/Avalon were in completely different classes when they first came out. i'll give that the Camry and Avalon were just mostly different in size, mid-sized and full-sized; the Avalon also had more standard features and was V6 only, but the original Altima was a compact car only available with an inline 4 and competed with Civics and Corollas. now, the Altima has cannibalized Maxima sales. at one point (2002-2003) the Altima was bigger than the Maxima! i'm not even sure if the Azera and Sonata (limited) are in a different class at all. making a new Azera would be like bringing back the Toyota Cressida; in a word, unnecessary.

    i see Hyundai moving up their model lines half a class up. in other words, even though the Sonata's competitive set is with the Accord, Camry, Altima, Mazda 6, Legacy, Malibu, Fusion, i think the target set is mid-sized and full-sized, front wheeled drived, entry level luxury like the Passat CC, LaCrosse, Maxima, Taurus, ES350/Avalon and TL; $40k+ cars. likewise, i think that the new Elantra will also target the Accord, Camry, Altima, Mazda 6, Legacy, Malibu and Fusion despite competing with the Civic, Corolla, Jetta, Mazda 3 and Cruz. the Azera wasn't that much more attractive than the Avalon at $3k less with worse resale and fuel economy, but the new Sonata (and the Amanti) at $10k+ less with comparable features, much better fuel economy, and improving resale might all but kill off the Avalon except for the die hard unbelievers.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    What I said that the base Sonata is about $5k less than the base Azera, and I think that is accurate.

    By your own figures, the difference between a loaded Sonata V6 and Azera is just over $3500. And yes, Hyundai has to offer more features in the Azera to justify the higher price, otherwise there would be no reason at all for the Azera to exist.

    The problem with the Azera is there isn't enough to differentiate it from the Sonata. But with the Sonata limited to only I4s, there is now room for differentiation, at least in the engine bay. The Azera needs a redesign of course, to keep up with the newer Genesis and brand-new Sonata.

    I don't see the Elantra targeting the Accord, Camry, Altima, Mazda6 and other true mid-sized cars. The Accord in particular is a full-sized car in interior volume, and is a natural target for the Sonata--as is the Camry, Altima, Mazda6 et. al. The Elantra will continue to go after the Civic, Corolla, Focus, and cars of that size, but with its long-time advantage of more room for the dollar.
  • akumaakuma Posts: 70
    all i'm saying is that the Azera at the moment is just a slightly fancier Sonata (the old one), just slightly. or a Sonata with a few more features and different interior and exterior styling and a couple more cubes of space. there really isn't anything superior about the Azera to the Sonata except for those aforementioned features.

    i don't think that Hyundai is going to make a sedan with only a V6 engine available and no other engine like the Amanti. i think the V6 is only going to be used in the Genesis and some of the CUVs (Veracruz, Santa Fe), and even then it might be replaced in the next generation. Hyundai has to get to 35.5 MPG by 2016. if Hyundai can reduce weight, improve performance and fuel economy while saving money by implementing 4-cylinder turbos, and make these engines very refined, i think the V6 will no longer be used by Hyundai. the Tau V8 (supercharged in some applications) with all the money invested in it, will probably only be used as a halo engine. i'm almost certain the Genesis Coupe is going to ditch the V6 and use a more powerful GDI 4 cylinder turbo instead.

    i don't really expect the Elantra to compete against the major mid-sizers. it's just when the Genesis sedan was engineered, they benchmarked the BMW 5-Series, Infiniti M, Lexus GS, and Mercedes E-Class. that was their "target" set according to Krafcik. their actual competitive set was Cadillac CTS, Chrysler 300M, ES350 and Pontiac G8.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjia6K0Rnqg
    this is explained at about 4:00 into the half hour video.

    the Genesis coupe was also benchmarked against the G37 coupe despite competing against the Eclipse and Mustang and later the Camaro.

    the new Elantra will almost certainly have a version of the same GDI engine and in-house 6-speed transmission as the Sonata, and have a midsize interior like the current one (97.9 cubic feet, 112.1 total volume; for reference, the Acura RL has 99.1 cubic feet and 112.2 total volume). the interior will be upgraded as well as the technology, not unlike the new Tucson. it will also be priced thousands of dollars cheaper comparably equipped if not better equipped than the current Civic and Corolla with class leading fuel economy. i wouldn't be surprised if the base 4 cylinder versions of the Accord, Camry and Altima were compared or cross-shopped with the fully loaded versions of the new Elantra. the new Elantra will probably be a better car by most metrics (performance, features, fuel economy, engine/tranny refinement, suspension, design) than the current Sonata (4 cylinder) except for interior and cargo volume. it will just have the exterior dimensions and weight comparable to a Civic or Corolla.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    I think the days of the Sonata being priced thousands less than the Camry, or the Elantra priced thousands less than the Corolla, are gone, especially when the next-gen Sonata and Elantra debut. Already for 2010, the Sonata and Elantra are priced very close to comparable Toyotas; compare, for example, a 2010 Elantra with ESC and alloys to the Corolla with ESC and alloys--the Corolla actually costs less, in terms of invoice less rebates! So get ready for a small price advantage at best, but getting a superior car in terms of power, fuel economy, interior room, and standard features.
  • akumaakuma Posts: 70
    that's why i think Hyundai might be doing their advanced benchmarking. when compared to their competitive classes, Hyundai cars aren't so cheap anymore. but when they are compared to one class above (and i think they can compare quite well actually) then they start really looking like good values again. also, other carmakers are being more aggressive with their pricing. the new Tucson looks like it compares well to CR-V and Rav 4, but i think it can be compared to the Mazda CX-7 and even the Acura RDX and Infiniti EX. i'm sure the guys at Acura and Infiniti absolutely hate being compared to Hyundai. the Tucson will need to get the GDI engine and/or turbocharged one to be truly competitive with the premium small crossovers, though.

    well it looks like Hyundai is going to replace the Azera afterall. according to comments at hyundai-blog, it's already going through wind-tunnel testing (Hyundai sure does keep their future cars under very secret wraps) and is supposed going to be available with a GDI 4.0 V6 (which may or may not also go in the Sonata) that might make 32 MPG and possible AWD. that's news to me. if they improve the Azera as much if not more so than they did with the Sonata, they're going to have to be careful in differentiating it from the Genesis besides RWD, since the Genesis is still a long way away from redesign.

    maybe they're going to turn the Azera into a huge full-sized car like the Crown Vic or Park Avenue or turn it into a Lincoln killer or a poor man's BMW 7 series (but with front wheel drive). maybe they're just going to make different flavors for very similar cars to get as many buyers as they can. they'll just have to do a better job than GM did with that.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    I thought the Genesis was supposed to be a "poor man's 7 Series"? ;)
  • steven39steven39 Posts: 636
    i hope for hyundai's sake that they have solved the suspension (thunk) issues that have plagued pryor years models sonatas.i currently have a 08 sonata with this thunk issue as does many other sonata owners on this forum.
  • I am an Azera owner and the 2011 Sonata is making my mouth water, i'm excited to see it in person, I may just have to trade down.
  • I am an Azera owner and the 2011 Sonata is making my mouth water, i'm excited to see it in person, I may just have to trade down.

    I still haven't seen one in person. I'm going to take my Sonata to my dealer for an oil change at some point this week, and I'm really hoping they have one in the showroom.

    If they do, I'll snap a few pics and post them here.
  • craigmricraigmri Posts: 243
    My dealer is saying the 2011 Sonata will be in the showrooms around the Superbowl. I cannot wait....I've decided we will either trade our Azera or veracruz in on a loaded Sonata...If they drive as good as they look they'll have a huge hit on their hands!

    Craig
  • steven39steven39 Posts: 636
    i wouldn't count on the 2011 sonata being in the dealers showrooms in january when on almost every car site includeing hyundai's own site that says that the 2011 sonata will not be available till spring 2010....yes, the sonata does look real nice and does come with lots of standard features but don't judge a book by it's cover till it's been test driven.
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