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Comments
Karen
Rick
Glad you liked my site. The Super Cub was a blast to fly. 150 hp and 1100 lbs (empty). Punch the throttle and things happened quickley, it got off in 300' or so. Dad sold it after I nosed it over after landing. (The propeller makes a terrible noise when it hits the pavement.)
Back to the Saab... I am still waiting for my 9-5 wagon. Saab pushed my order back a month and delivery is now 5/12. I am getting nervous since it does not have a VIN yet. I would like to know it is built and on the boat. If they don't send it soon, I will have to wait some more. I have about $2500 worth of accessories sitting in my basement waiting for a car to hang them on. They spoilers will get painted this week or next.
When I get my Saab I will add its picture. The picture will be of me, in my Car Order T-shirt in the car. I will post it on my toys site.
Drive Safe,
Joe
htto://home.jtan.com/~joe/toys.htm
I'm looking to replace my '95 Passat GLX Wagon (yet another complete and total lemon - just replaced the entire engine).
Anyway, I've read through many of the posts to date, have test driven the 9-5 wagon and didn't experience any of the noise factors others spoke of (I also own a '97 900). Will test the Volvo in the next few days, although I drove one a few months back.
Right now I'm leaning towards the Saab, but the lease pricing has gone up quite a bit in the past two months. Anyone have any last minute advice between the 9-5 and V70?
P.
Here in California, the car has been a lot of fun and has felt very luxurious. There have been no defects in my vehicle.
My other car is a 1987 Volvo 740 GLE with 165000 miles, and it is in excellent shape for that age of car. It is a tank.
So, the greatest competition for the Saab when I made a purchase was Volvo. I tried the 2000 V70 back to back with a Saab, and I found the Volvo to be very loud and rough compared to the Saab (too tight suspension for bumps on these crappy California bay Area roads), and the performance was simply not as tight as the Saab. I found a much closer comparing vehicle to my Saab was the Volvo S80, which I actually tried and liked before the Saab. However, when I drove the S80 and the Saab on the same day back to back, the Saab won hands down with better steering and acceleration, and the brakes had a much better feel.
I do think the Volvo wins hands down in the seat department, though the Saab's are quite good. i just think the Volvo's are the best....soft leather and perfectly contoured to my body. But I know every body is so different. This is just my opinion.
What I highly recommend is that you narrow down your finalist vehicles and test drive them on the same day. Drive them a good 30 miles in various conditions. When you think you know which is the winner, take it out for a few hours and see if you will really like it in daily life-like conditions.
I have not addresses the 2001 V70 - your post didn't mention which you were considering. The comparison drives still apply.
I think your three choices will all do well in the performance category. I think you ought to drive all of your choices back to back on the same day. Spend a good thirty miles in each. Then, do it again the next day if you have doubts.
Good luck!
About the only defect so far is an annoying little chirp that makes itself evident on rough patches of road. I will have this looked at during the 1K mile maintenance.
Mitch
As a side note, my 900 lease is up soon and I may get a 9-3. If we get the V70 however, I might think about the 40 series Volvo to replace the 900.
Anyone think a dealer would give me any kind of break if I did them both at the same time?
P.
See ya, Rick
The Saab 9-3 was a nice car and man did that hatchback swallow the goods. I say "was" and "did" because the car was totalled in an accident that resulted in nothing more than a few minor scrapes and stitches to my body.
I walked away from an accident that the paramedics swore I should have suffered severe spinal injury in. I felt no post accident trauma and was released from the hospital the very next morning in my paper pajamas to rent a Toyota Camery to drive five hours home alone in. Saab is a proven safe car for me.
The story of why we bought the 96 Volvo 850 wagon over another Saab was that once again the Saab 9-5 Wagon was still just on the verge of being released and the special Saab lease incentive on the 9-3 had by then disappeared from the market. The Volvo was what was available at the time so that is what we bought.
We love the Volvo and I can at least some degree compare the two marques becase I've driven them both probably at least as long as any of you guys have had your Saab 9-5's. The Volvo 850 has stop on a dime brakes that are so firm that they really took some time to get used to. They are known to be slightly shorter lifed than typical when not properly replaced by a reputable dealer/mechanic.
The other aspect that the Volvo has different from the Saab is that it is a noticeably stiffer ride. Everything feels firmer and maybe harsher to some depending on your perspective. I felt to some degree that the 9-3 had a bit too squishy suspension for the level of engine performance that its great turbo engine puts out. The Saab's turbo engine was really something to behold and certainly we enjoyed.
The seats in the Volvo are only slightly more ergonomically designed but I still think that the Saab's seat were far beyond average. The Swedes really have a knack for this aspect of design I think. We had/have cloth in both cars because I prefer it over leather and always found it to be more grippy in the curves.
My final note about Volvo vs. Saab relates to the tire. The two different Michelin tires they use on these models affects tremendously the handeling/ road noise aspects of both cars and if you find that your unsatisfied with a particular characteristic of your car try changeing tires and you'd be surprised at the difference it'll make.
Best Wishes
After keeping both the Saab 9-5 Wagon and Volvo XC AWD for "overnighters", we pick up our new 2000 XC AWD tomorrow (the 2001 V70's are in but the 2001 AWD's will be in the fall).
In the 70 miles or so I put on each car, the Saab's road noise did in fact show up, although I most definitely would say it's due to the tires (our model had the Ronal special wheels and low profile Dunlops). I liked the seating, but felt they could use more side bolster support (both seatback and seat). This was the SE and the turbo really screamed but a *large* delay for turbo lag, or at least I thought so. Loved the handling and ride otherwise. Like the look over the Volvo as well.
The Volvo XC AWD (for me) had the much nicer seats, both comfort and support. The engine is fine but not as ballsy as the Saab. A smidgeon more backseat room, but it appears that's just a perception as the actual #'s are almost identical to the Saab. The AWD is a big plus up here in snow country. Much, much quieter ride than the Saab, which I would not have guessed would be so beforehand.
What sold the Volvo? The seats, the ride, the AWD and the dealer. The Saab dealer was looking to make a killing (which I didn't understand at all - maybe it's me?), the Volvo dealer (while I *did* have to play the negotiation game) was much easier and less greedy to deal with.
So, silver metallic XC AWD with sunroof/leather and touring package, here we come. I'll report back after a few thousand miles.
Paul
1) 2000 Volvo base V70. Great room, comfortable seats, but terrible acceleration. I was almost smashed trying to merge into traffic.
2) 2000 Volvo XC. The all wheel drive is a nice feature. I will say that there is substantial road noise around 70 mph and the ride is reminiscent of my Toyota truck. And I will not even mention the sophomoric decal on the real that proclaims to the world that this is indeed a "cross country".
3) 2001 V70. The styling and ride are great. The low compression turbo really improves acceleration and will press you back in your seat (I can only imagine what the ~250 hp T-5 could do). My concerns were mostly about reliability and price. Since it is based on the S80 which Consumer's Report dubbed as having exceptionally poor reliability, I was apprehensive on purchasing this first year model. Also, the dealer was offering me a "great" deal of only $2,000 over invoice and wouldn't budge; I left and went to Saab.
3)Saab 9-5. The dealer had few base 9-5 wagons, most were fully loaded placing the invoice price close to the price of an SE or the Gary Fisher. The V6 in the SE did have more power that the 4 of the base, but not substantially. The 9-5 has more road noise than the base V70 but much less that the XC. The Saabs do idle louder that the Volvos. The Gary Fisher Ed. has the 17 inch wheels and an improved suspension, I simply liked the feel of the car's road manners better than the other 9-5s. Also I plan on using the rack for my canoe and I do desperately need a new bike. Finally, I was able to purchase the Gary Fisher for $450 over invoice, the dealer is great, no maintenance costs for 3 years, dealer pick up and replacement car drop off for service, etc. etc. these amenities swayed my decision.
All are wonderful wagons and I am happy that it was such a difficult decision to make.
dave
This is a little off topic, but we plan to tour the southwest this year, and I was wondering if you know if Saabs are available for rental at any of the agencies at the Albuquerque Airport. I've read that Saabs are available at the Phoenix Airport, but for better access to some of our destinations, we may decide to fly into Albuquerque. Thanks much.
Jon W.
Drive Safe,
Joe
Thanks for the information. I didn't see Albuquerque listed, but then I didn't see Phoenix listed either. It seems to me that I remember Phoenix being mentioned as a Saab rental option a couple years ago in the Saab Soundings magazine.
However, I was pleased to see that Saabs are available in Orlando, where we go a couple times a year. It appears that Budget is the prime outlet for Saab rentals.
Jon W.
I called my dealer and said I would like it improved. He spoke with his regional manager and nothing happened. I really want my car and I really, really want to know when I will get it. So I figure I would e-mail the same people that were so helpful sending me a brochure and getting my interested in Saab cars, www.sabusa.com.
I fill out the e-mail form asking for improvement to my delivery. I get a response that I will hear from them in 24 hours. Two weeks later...I get a response that they could not get to my e-mail and please call the 800 number. So I call the 800 number and learn the guy that can help is not avaliable and will call me back.
I miss his call (never miss an e-mail) and call the 800 number back with my incident number. They guy had left for the day (12:45) and would be back Monday. I reference my incident number and he reads me a note to call this dude at my dealer.
So I call the dealer and talk to the dude. He reads me the same stale information off the same report that I initially got.
This is no way to handle a customer! I contacted Saab because I wanted to know when my car would be made. Saab makes cars, not the dealer. I get a run around and end up where I started. I wonder if I will ever get my car or if it would make sense looking for another marque.
Drive Safely,
Joe
I think you have been very patient with Saab, including the dealership and the Saab Headquarters people. This sounds like the old game of "passing the buck." It would seem justifiable, at this point, to contact Joel Manby, CEO, Saab Cars USA Inc., and ask if he would like to step up to the responsibility of getting someone's attention downline in the chain of command. The Saab 9-5 is a great car, but I doubt that they are so overwhelmed with sales that they can't give you a better and definite commitment on a delivery date. Good luck.
Jon W.
Thanks for the information on Budget Saab rentals and the Albuquerque Airport. If you don't mind, one more question: I understand that Phoenix Airport imposes a fairly high ticket surcharge, whereas Albuquerue's ticket surcharge is negligible or none. I was wondering if you might know if this is the case. We plan to visit both cities, but Albuquerque is closer to several sites in NM and southern Colorado that we plan to visit.
Jon W.
George
Thanks for the name. I wrote custserv@saabusa.com a "warm" reply describing my dissapointment. I will give this another week to sink in and for me to cool off. Just in case, do you have Mr. Manby's address?
Drive Safe,
Joe
I found Joel Manby's name in the Saab Magazine, which superseded the earler Saab Soundings. I don't have his business E-mail address, but I'm sure he could be reached via mail to:
Saab Cars USA
4405-A International Blvd.
Norcross,GA 30093
I agree about not wanting to contact him until you have exhausted all other options. Apparently, someone in the management chain isn't following through. Good luck.
Jon W.
Thanks for the information about taxes on car rentals in Phoenix. They are high! Additionally, I've heard that there is a heavy airport use surtax charged as well.
Jon W.
I just did a search on Joel Manby's name and found an internet site that announced Manby as joining Greenlight. It sounds like Saab may be going through some restructuring.
Jon W.
Thanks for the info. I am sure that Joel's replacement will get my message if I end up sending one.
Drive Safe,
Joe
Come back here to add your comments!
KarenS
Wagons host
Anyway, all this is to say that it may be time to retire my old friend and replace it with a fun-to- drive wagon. I've narrowed it to the new 9-5 wagon or the 2001 V-70. I test drove the VW 4 cylinder wagon and let's just say I couldn't wait to get back in my old Saab.
My question is what's the best way to handle the dealer on a high mileage Saab trade? Would a Saab dealer be more inclined to give a good trade in value as opposed to a Volvo dealer? Are dealers more hungry to close on wagons as opposed to sedans? Does it make any difference? Should I just accept that my old car is not worth much and consider keeping it as kick around car or try selling it on my own?
Any input would be appreciated. I'll probably start talking $ with the dealers in the next couple weeks.
Thanks
Jim
I always sell my own cars. I keep them real clean and give them an extra polish befor people look at it. It has worked well for me. In Pennsylvania there is an advantage to trading where yoyu do not have to pay sales tax on the value of your old car. I have always been able to get a higher price to ofset this amount.
Since you know the history of the car, and as you know, a hatchback is a very versatile hauler to have around in case you live in a suburban or rural area where parking space isn't a problem. Another thought is to consider donating the car to a favorite charity and take the allowable tax deduction for it.
I don't know if you have been reading the reports on the Volvo V70, which, by the way, is a beautiful wagon, but I would suggest a close look at the reliability reports on the V70. They have been less than impressive recently. Of the two wagons, the Saab 9-5 wagon has shown better reliability. In any event, good luck with your choice.
Jon W.
The Sunday Washington Post had an advertisement for Saabs at 2.9 percent, which expires soon. However, I would be surprised if they ever offer 0% financing in the near future. Also, I doubt if the dealer would back off from the MSRP much if they offer a lower percentage, especially if Saabs continue to sell well.
My guess is that after the 2001 models come out would be the best time to buy a 2000 model. At least that's what I'm counting on as I wait for the fall sales. I would also be interested in some other opinions on this.
Jon W.
Appears no dealer in interested in a Saab with over 200,000 miles. Their suggestion was to try to sell it on my own or donate it.
Test drove the new 2001 Volvo V-70 2.4 as well as the 2000 9-5 wagon. The Saab is the better choice IMO. The Volvo has noticeable turbo lag and looser steering compared to the Saab. That coupled with Volvos recent reliability problems made the decision to go with the Saab a no brainer. (I do have to admit I prefer the looks of the Volvo but I can get past that)
Anyway Saab dealer #1 wanted $900 over invoice while Saab dealer #2 wanted $600 BELOW invoice. I signed a contract with #2 last night and I'll have my new Saab in a week.
Jim
It sounds like you found the right place and the right time to buy. Would you mind sharing a couple details, such as whether this was a new car or a dealer demonstrator car and perhaps where the dealer is located, if you would care to say. In either case, it sounds like a great deal.Thanks. Jon W.
Thanks for the information. I was thinking the dealer might be in the mid-Atlantic area of Baltimore-Washington. It's an extraordinary good price. It's hard to figure why there is such a disparity between dealer's prices. Some dealers resist backing off from the MSRP and others will deal down to invoice and below to keep their inventory moving. Good luck with your purchase.
Jon W.
offer from last autumn/winter, and I'm
counting on it again this fall.
I think it's going to be a buyer's market for
Saab's generally, wagons in particular. Why?
1. Saab had a terrible first quarter. Virtually all manufacturers reported blowout sales in Q1 2000; Saab's were actually down something like 30 percent. As interest rates tick up and stocks
get more volatile, things will definitely get
worse. (Saab has quit releasing its sales publicly, but you can find them buried in GM's
releases; if they were good, you can be sure
Saab would be bragging about them.)
2. The wagon marketplace is just about to get
a lot more competitive. If you're shopping
for wagons, you've probably read the V70 review.
The performance variant -- the T-5 -- starts
at $7000 less than the Aero. I prefer the Saab,
but I'm not sure I like it $4 or $5 K more (allowing for options on the T-5). Also,
Audi's bringing out in 2001 (so you'll begin to
see them in October) an new A-6 Avant. It'll
have AWD and a 250 hp engine. Don't know pricing,
but even if it's in the mid-40s, my guess is
it still makes the Aero look overpriced.
My guess is that deals may get good as soon
as next month (May 1). If things are really
bad -- and I suspect they got worse industry-
wide in early April -- Saab will get a lot
more aggressive with its financing. But deals October will be even better October
1, I bet.
My 2cents.
-- Leon in Atlanta
1.
have gotten better in May. Lease terms
on the 4 cylinder/auto are now $419/month,
down from $439/month in April. Trying
to clear the lots before the new -- and
cheaper! -- V-70 hits the States!
On my purchase, the dealer made $1050 on hold back, $1000 on incentive, less $600 off invoice for a gross profit of $1450. Hummm, I wonder if I should have negotiated harder???
Thanks for the info, but a clarification, please:
Are the incentives delivered to the dealer AFTER
he's hit his target, or before? In other words,
did your dealer (the one you bought from) offer
you a better deal because he already had the
incentive? Or because with your sale he'd meet
the target and THEN get the incentive?
I think it would make a difference. Because if
she's already got the incentive -- say, if she hit
her target the month before -- then it shouldn't
matter whether you buy at the beginning or the
end of the month. But if Saabusa holds out
'til after the month, then you're right, end
of the month would be better.
Any idea about that? Oh yeah, did your dealer
make any finance offers?
Thanks.
-- Leon
The $1000 incentive kicks in after the target is met. My dealer was quite clear that the price was only valid until the end of the month.
As for finance, he could only help if I was going for a lease. Since I usually hold cars for 200,000 miles, a lease would not work for me. I'll be taking a home equity loan loan for 5 years at 7.5%. After tax deductions, it works out to less than 5%.
Jim
Thanks for the feedback on your wagon purchase. This is what makes the internet such a valuable tool. I think your deal was outstanding. If I extrapolated some numbers correctly, your dealer made about 4 percent profit, even with the hold back. Anytime you can buy a $35K car for that kind of markup, you have done well. I doubt if you could have negotiated a better price. By the way, did you go with automatic or manual? Let us know how you like your new wagon. Good luck.
Jon W.
I hope this won't be your "swan song" on this board. Sometimes things get a little slow here, but you gave us some very good information on Saab
sales figures on which to comment. It looks like the station wagon may be Saab's bread and butter vehicle. Wagons are making a resurgence and it seems that Saab is well positioned to capitalize on this trend. The Saab wagon is a versatile hauler and makes a good alternative to the gas-guzzling SUVs.
Since you live in the Atlanta area, I was wondering if you have read anything about Joel Manby leaving Saab headquarters in Norcross and becoming the CEO of Greenlight, the internet car sales company? I was curious if GM has appointed a new CEO at Norcross.
Our daughter and her family live in the Atlanta area, and I have had occasion to "kick a few tires" at the local Saab dealers. I believe Torendelli(sp?) is one of them and another is down on Jimmy Carter Ave., if I recall. It seems that Saab should have a much larger representation in the Atlanta area. I believe I was told that Boston has 10 or 11 Saab dealers in that area.
Thanks for sharing the information with us and keep us posted as to your progress in finding the right wagon at the right price. Best of luck.
Jon W.
It's a standard trans. 4 cylinder. I should be picking it up next week. I'll let you know how the ownership experience goes.
Jim
As of today, Saab's gotten MUCH more aggressive
on its 9-5 sedan and wagon sales. There's
an ad in today's (4 May) WSJ pitching both
vehicles for $389/month. This is $50 less than
the April lease offer, and the amount due at
lease inception ($3,283) is $100 less, too. I
couldn't find this deal at Saab's website;
they've still got the $419/month deal (that one
requires a down payment of $2337).
As I've said, I think this deal is motivated
by slower spring sales and by coming competition
from Volvo and others. Consider this: the best
you could do last year was $399/month for a
MANUAL (and you could never find any of those).
The current deal is for the automatic.
As for Jon, thanks for your nice comments. I've
had my eye on this car since before it came out
(I think it was intro'd at the 98 Geneva Autoshow), but I am absolutely not going to pay
too much. I've been gathering intelligence to
figure out the best time to buy. May as well
share, right?
Unfortunately, my Atlanta location doesn't make
me any more privy to Saab developments. It gets
no special (or even regular) coverage, as far
as I can tell. (Neither does Porsche USA, which
is also HQed here.) My Saab news comes from
a Bridge News terminal (and I've not heard of
any replacement for Joel Manby).
Yes there are 2 Saab dealers in Atlanta. One of
'em used to be a Troncalli, but they're both owned
by Indiana-based (I thintk) Kelley. THere are
rumors that one of 'em's about to be sold.
Personally, I hope that's true; it's kind of
incovenient to drive to Greenville or Charlotte
for a competing offer!
Best,
Leon
Thanks much for the information. Doesn't this reveal that, unless you have access to the right source, this deal might be completely unknown to the prospective leaser/buyer? In fact, I wonder if this information is being equally disseminated to all Saab dealers? Anyway, if the Saab lease deals continue getting better, I may have to readjust my opposition to leasing. The limited mileage is one factor. This latest lease sounds like a savings of about $1900 over the term of the lease. I would prefer to buy, but leasing at a reasonable rate versus pulling money out of a good investment has some advantages. However, if mutual funds go into the tank, but that's another story ....
I recall the name Troncalli now that you mention it. Our youngest daughter used to live in Roswell and we went out to look at Saabs there a couple of times. I was wondering if there was a Saab dealer in Macon. That might be a little closer for you, but I'm sure you have checked that out.
I'm in complete agreement with you about wanting to determine the best time to buy. It's kind of a waiting game to figure the optimum time. It seems to vary from one region to another. I thought Jim's (wagonbyr) deal was excellent. I think it's back to basics -- the law of supply and demand. It's good to see you back and thanks again for the information.
Regards,
Jon W.
Wayne