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VW Passat Wagon vs Subaru Wagons

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    frapzoidfrapzoid Member Posts: 127
    I didn't get hurt but the deer didn't do so well. She was killed instantly. No, the air bags didn't deploy but then I didn't feel a thing when I hit the deer. It made some noise but I didn't feel the impact at all. The deer was a good size but the Passat is a relatively heavy car. A smaller car would have been toast. I was going 35 mph and the deer was running full speed. She didn't have a chance...

    Gary
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    :-(

    Oh well. My nanny's daughter just got a Passat. V6 Tip sedan in red. She brought it by yesterday, to take her kid and my kid out to the mall.

    I had to cinch up a couple of child seats, no problem there.

    She should have chosen a wagon, the two strollers took up the whole trunk.

    -juice
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    WarpDriveWarpDrive Member Posts: 506
    You should have bought the Outback. Outbacks equipped with optional roo-bars are definitely more deer proof :)
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    frapzoidfrapzoid Member Posts: 127
    Are roo-bars something that are only sold in Canada? I'm not familiar with those. I think my Passat sustained less damage than a WRX would even with those roo-bars... ;-)
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Australia is a good source for those.

    Subaru has about 10 times as much market share there, and despite what people say they are used off road extensively. There are all kinds of clubs, and more than one vendor selling skid plates and 'roo bars.

    Or should we say, 'ru bars?

    -juice
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    WarpDriveWarpDrive Member Posts: 506
    But any vendor in austarilia will sell those as an option.

    They definitely work, as roo collisions are so common. http://www.subaclub.com/TechTalk/roobar.htm
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    spcanfspcanf Member Posts: 5
    I am trying todecide betwen subaru and passat gls 1.8 auto. wagon. I am concerned about hesitation of passat when initially accelerating. Dealer told me it was because the car had to learn the driver and after I drove it for awhile, the hesitation would go away? Does anyone know if this is true? I like the smoothness and quiet of passat - but the hesitation would drive me nuts if it didn't go away. Thanks
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    allhorizonallhorizon Member Posts: 483
    It is true that the transmission adjusts to the driver. So it depends on who has driven it before. It takes a while to adjust, and may require the battery terminals to be removed (and the remaining voltage to be drained by e.g. applying the brakes (lights) to reset to default.

    On the other hand, the auto - 1.8t combination is notorious for having a bit of a lag. This is under most circumstances not the turbo lag many people accuse it of. It is just a mismatch between the two, where the AT is optimized for fuel consumption and does not upshift early enough. If the car has the tiptronic, that makes it easy to shift it yourself, instead.

    - D.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You sure you can't learn stick shift? The 1.8T is far more satisfying with a manual, IMO, buttery smooth.

    I think the 2.5l in the Subie is torquey and actually mates better to Subaru's very robust automatic. That same tranny handles 300hp reliably in modified WRXs. The trade-off is that it only has 4 speeds and no manual controls on most models.

    -juice
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    frapzoidfrapzoid Member Posts: 127
    I didn't like the 1.8/Tiptronic combination either. I liked the V6/Stick better. Liked it so much that I bought it. Try the stick with the 1.8 engine. You might like it better.

    Gary
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Having said that a friend of mine has the 1.8T/Tiptronic and chipped both the engine and the tranny, and swears it performs far better now.

    I'll take his word for it, but that's still about a grand plus questionable warranty coverage.

    -juice
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    feilofeilo Member Posts: 128
    The difference between stock and chipped 1.8T is day and night! I have a 1.8T chipped with Wetteraurer making ~200hp and ~240 lb-ft of torque and after ~18K chipped miles, the Passat continues to be a pleasure to drive. The power comes on so crisply and linearly. And the torque is sweet! Yes, granted there are warranty issues (depending on whether your "friendly" dealer is mod-friendly or otherwise - mine is), but for ~$300 for a chip, its the best bang for your mod-bucks in my book.

    BTW, I almost went with the Legacy GT but the Passat won out because of its "chip-ability".
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Wow, 240 foot pounds from a 1.8l? Doesn't that sound a little optimistic for a chip alone?

    -juice
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    feilofeilo Member Posts: 128
    That's what the chip manufacturer claims and its pretty similar across the board for the other manufacturers like GIAC, APR, etc. Thing is the Audi/VW 1.8 engine is so versatile (e.g its essentially the same engine in the Audi TT and that makes 225 hp/200+ lb-ft torque), and is so de-tuned for the Passat, that it appears simply re-mapping the ECU will do the trick.

    I personally have not dyno-ed my Passat but some of my fellow ClubB5ers have. From what I have seen posted, its within the ball-park. Sure feels like 200+ ft-lb to me - I drove a 24V V6 Duratec Taurus for 9 months before I got my Passat and that has an advertised 200 ft-lb; my chipped Passat's torque delivery "feels" pretty similar (not that I would equate a Taurus with the Passat but that's another story ...).
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Well, we'll be seeing more chips for Subarus now that the WRX, STi, Forester XT, Baja Turbo, and pretty soon Legacy turbo are for sale.

    -juice
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    feilofeilo Member Posts: 128
    Wish the Legacy Turbo was around a year ago. Still have a soft-spot for Subies and still would like an affordable AWD sports wagon!

    Anyway, chip away!
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    blackbeanblackbean Member Posts: 100
    I had a 2002 Passat wagon with the AT and 1.8T combo - horrible! Lag does NOT go away and can be dangerous if you are trying get out into busy street! I had a whole host of mechanical and electrical problems as well - the happy ending is that I wound up with a 2002 Bean! Even better, no lag from AT, Turbo OR wheelspin!
    Matt
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    2dbeach2dbeach Member Posts: 1
    HELP PLEASE ... does anyone know if the dashboards in VW are all supposed to come in black ... just looked at a GLX Passat Wagon and the dashboard, and trim just under the door windows, is a terrible grey with, would you believe, a black steering wheel ... looks like a mistake to me !!!!!!!!!
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    frapzoidfrapzoid Member Posts: 127
    I will tell you this about my Passat! This stupid car has been nothing but a joy to own. Only thing I have done is change the oil and a few headlights. The maintenence has been so boring! The Subaru guys made it seem like such drama to own a Passat! I am truly disappointed. The car really is a joy to drive and the only excitement happens when I am behind the wheel.

    Gary
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    mikenkmikenk Member Posts: 281
    But don't get too cocky. At 3 years, I was praising the reliability of my Volvo 850 wagon and snickering at its CU bad reliability rating; At 6 years, I was cursing the day I bought that money sucking sucker. Sadly, statistical data usually wins in the end.

    Mike
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It usually works like this - they engineer parts to fail 1 day after the warranty period. That's true for most every car. ;-)

    They're amazingly accurate. My '91 Escort had some weather stripping fall off 200 miles out of warranty and Ford wouldn't fix it.

    -juice
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    ensoccer589ensoccer589 Member Posts: 26
    Rear legroom in the old and new generation OBs is absolutely amazing. I'm 6'4" and still have room to spare in the back even when the front seat is in a reasonable position. I sat in my neighbors Passat the other day and had trouble getting my head through the door let alone trying to fit a penny between my knees and the seat in front of me. Car companies dont cater to tall people enough. For all you VW owners who want some satisfaction... yes, I do have trouble getting my right knee under the steering in my OB ;)
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    rahimrahim Member Posts: 8
    Hi all!

    First off, I have to say, as a passive observer, these forums are awesome! Thanks to all who contribute.

    ...I'm in a dilemma! I really want a sport wagon... I need a family friendly vehicle, and am in absolute denial of the need of a minivan, and simply abhor SUV's. AWD is not really necessary. I will be moving to Bremerton, WA, and will have no need to go offroad. The only options I could come with are the Passat (sketchy reliability - depending on who you talk to), Legacy/Outback (pricy), Mazda 6 (the major problems in forums are limited to rattles, but lots of them!), Volvo V50, V70 (pricy - although the V70R almost sounds like a bargain for the price!), and the BMW 3 series (330 not avail in wagon, only 325, and expensive). Given I don't really need AWD, as Subaru drivers out there, do you think Subies are still a good option considering the extra expense? I do enjoy driving, and do want a drivers car! Any comparisons or comments would be greatly appreciated.

    Also, for anyone who has test drove the 5EAT and 5M, can they honestly say the if the VDT is a noticeable improvement than the standard AWD in the 5M? and is the performance of the 5EAT at all sluggish compared to the 5M. I would probably buy the XT/GT limited. I love manuals, and miss it terribly in my Accord V6 (only avail in auto in the sedan).

    And lastly, apart from the ground clearance, is there anything more the OB offers than the Legacy?

    I know these are a lot of questions in one long drawn out message, but any help would be appreciated in making this decision.

    Thanks.

    RD.
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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I've owned virtually at least one of all the major drivetrains out there, RWD, FWD and AWD. To me AWD is a no-brainer. It's the best overall system out there, and Subaru offers one of the best there is.

    Besides the Outback's higher ground clearance, the suspension is HD, and the packaging is somewhat different. For example Outback wagons come standard with roof rack cross bars, which are optional on Legacy wagons. Same with the rear cargo tray. If you're an "outdoorsy guy, you may prefer the Outback. If you prefer sports car-like handling, you may prefer the Legacy.

    Bob
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    wmquanwmquan Member Posts: 1,817
    Agreed. The Legacy GT may be a very good bet. But you're simply going to have to test-drive a few of the different models, because what constitutes a "driver's car" is a highly subjective thing. One man's driver car is another's slugmobile. You may find yourself preferring the driving feel of a Passat or the other wagons.

    I disagree that you don't need AWD if you're moving to Bremerton, Washington. If you find yourself going to the Olympic or Cascade mountains (skiing, general travel) during the winter, you'll find AWD important. And in the general Puget Sound region there are many hills. So when we do get the relatively infrequent snowfall, road conditions can become treacherous.
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    eric102eric102 Member Posts: 122
    Not sure I'd call Subarus "pricey", unless you need a Bean or VDC.

    New 04 Outbacks are selling for 19,700 at my local dealer right now.
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    rahimrahim Member Posts: 8
    The 05 Subies are a little pricey compared to a EX-V6 accord, or a mazda 6. I agree you get AWD, but for $5000 more! The accord doesn't come in a wagon form, but driving the '01 accord in hilly morgantown WV in winter, I can see how effective a good traction control system is (at least to get moving!), and I am sure the AWD is even better. You are probably right about the move to Bremerton, even though it doesn't snow that often, AWD will be an asset, but I don't think I would call it a requirement.

    04 accord EX-V6 $24,750 (everything except nav/DVD - sedan)
    04 Passat 1.8T AWD wagon $28,700 (w/ leather, stability, CD changer)
    05 legacy GT Limited Wagon with a few options $31,500

    The Mazda may not be as reputable as Honda and Subaru, so a price comparison there may not be fare, but they do make a nice looking wagon. The 1.8T does have 80 less HP which I assume is a big deal, but I haven't driven them so I can't say for sure.

    I am not saying the Subies are not worth it. I would not be here in this forum if I wasn't seriously thinking about purchasing one. I can't wait to drive 250 AWD horses around hilly terrain - esp with the reputation of good low end torque. Almost everyone I know who owns a Subaru, swears by them. That is saying something.

    I really want to buy one, and plan on test driving one this coming week. Deep inside I want to convinced that it is worth it. I know nobody else can make up my mind for me, but I was hoping for some guilt management;)

    RD.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Passats seem roomy to me. Though the last generation had a bigger back seat than this one. Wagons have squared off doors so ingress/egress is also better.

    The Subie being a 2005 will help in resale value, it'll seem a year newer. It sort of is.

    Street prices are lower than $31,500, by far. GT Limiteds have already been had under $30k, and they are loaded up - heated perforated leather, AWD, moonroof twice the size of competitors, 250hp, 250 lb-ft, side curtain air bags, 17" alloy rims, etc.

    Compare a Passat V6 4Motion and the Subie is a better value. Even up against the W8 4Motion, the Legacy GT is still quicker and costs about $10 grand less. Look at it that way and suddenly it's a bargain.

    The 1.8T should be compared to the base Legacy, even that model has 168hp, AWD, side curtains, etc.

    Accord is FWD only and doesn't come in a wagon, 93% of Outbacks are wagons so choose the wagon body style and that will rule out Hondas. You can't even get a manual tranny in a sedan, so they're not really sporty.

    Mazda6? Very attractive, good value. I'm still a little concerned about the staining/rust, and we found parts were hyper expensive. $28 for a gas cap for my Miata. An O2 sensor for our 626 was $220, just the part itself. Resale is only so-so.

    As far as meeting the sports wagon criteria, the Mazda6 and Legacy GT are on the sportier end of the spectrum. The Passat is in the middle, the Outback and Accord are more biased towards a compliant ride, if you ask me.

    So I'd look at the 6, Legacy GT, and maybe the Passat.

    Good luck.

    -juice
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    rahimrahim Member Posts: 8
    Juice, thanks for all your info. I have to tell you, I really enjoy reading all your posts in all the subie forums.

    By the way, I couldn't help noticing that the Legacy is wider than the OB (78.4 vs 69.7), yet they have the same passenger seating space listings (rear shoulder room of 53.7). Is there I don't understand, or does the legacy infact have more shoulder room. I am trying to see it from the point of view of seating an adult and child next to a car seat!

    After hearing that the auto may be more than 1 sec slower in the 0-60 than the MT I may want the MT - will save some some $$, so hopefully will get under the 30,000. Then again, I will want to wait from some realisitic comparative reports between the two. Also, I wonder if I will be losing out alot of the Subaru AWD technology that the name and price comes with in the difference between the 2 of AWD in the MT and Auto. I wonder if anyone has actually compared the 2 different AWD techs in real world driving conditions.

    Rahim.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Thanks.

    On the width, 69.7" sounds right, no way is it 78.4" wide. Must be a typo.

    If anything the Outback is slightly wider.

    The manual tranny on the Leg GT is very nice. They now employ a dual-mass flywheel, it's smooth as buttah. The tranny gears are also reinforced.

    It's a heck of an engine, too. The block has a semi closed deck. The valves are sodium filled for cooling. Many internals are forged.

    Think of it this way, it's not a turbo'd base 2.5l engine (EJ255 in FHI-speak), it's a de-tuned WRX STi engine block (EJ257). That STi makes 300hp/300ft-lbs, so the engine is way over-engineered.

    VTD is more high tech than the viscous coupling on the MT models, but still, I have a VC and my Forester is golden in the snow. My neighbors have Audi quattros and Volvo XCs but I'm still the one going out to buy milk in the snow storm in my Subie, perhaps those cars are "too nice" to slosh around in the snow? :-)

    -juice
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    rahimrahim Member Posts: 8
    That just what I wanted to hear! MT it is!!!

    My dealer here doesn't have both the Legacy GT and OB XT, so I will have to wait a few weeks till I get to WA for me go test drive them both.

    hmmmm... may be a chip in the future... 300HP...

    Rahim.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Sample the 250 as it is. I say it's under-rated.

    The Forester dynos at about 240-250hp, and claimed is just 210. I'd guess the Legacy is making more like 270-280, but they just didn't want to make it too close to the STi.

    Think about it. Could a 210hp Forester really hit 0-60 in 5.3 seconds? The Legacy GT has a *lot* more boost, just a tad shy of the WRX STi's turbo.

    -juice
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    feilofeilo Member Posts: 128
    The 250HP Legacy GT Turbo 5MT is mighty tempting ... I'd might be tempted to defect from my chipped (~200 hp) and lowered 1.8T AT Passat Variant! The close $30K tag is a litte daunting though.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Perhaps, but go price a Passat 4Motion that can break into the 5s in 0-60 (I'm not even sure the W8 model can).

    There's always the base Legacy. ;-)

    -juice
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    frogfrog Member Posts: 52
    hah hah hah.........

    I'm going to get in trouble for playing devils advocate but this war of the Birkenstock (tm) brands is a joke... Both VW and Subaru, very different companies, true, are THE BENCHMARKS in UNRELIABLE. Am I wrong?? I mean Jeep and Ford suck too as do many others but these brands SUCK!!!!!!!(this statement is qualified by reading these boards...)
    Having said that I love my 2004 Subi Leg which is too heavy to ever be snappy, but has a heart of gold. I look at the Volkswagen craving a faster ride, but would not trade the fluid connection I have with the road in the Subaru. I see Volks as a quick fix, and Subaru as a more mature balance of virtues... Not that I don't miss my mom's bus (that my brother fell out the back door of at speed and cracked his head open)... j/k....

    and the winner is.....

    is.....

    a good pair of walking shoes............?????
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    feilofeilo Member Posts: 128
    Juice,
    Where's the fun in that, base Legacy that is ... ;-). Of course, a 4Mo Passat will definitely break the bank, but strangely I have never considered a Passat if I were to go AWD. The Subies have always been the most AWD-bang-for-the-$ in my book.

    Guess I'll just have to wait it out until there are deals to be had. Besides, I'm having a blast with/in my Passat wagen right now. Tally ho, all.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    VW has issues with reliability, perhaps a lot of that is due to the ignition coils which are now behind them (hopefully). But they're near the bottom of JDP studies (2nd last IIRC) and only do so-so in CR's ratings.

    But did you mean to say Subarus are unreliable? Keeping in mind that people seek out boards like these to find resolutions, they were average in JDP's IQ study, and improve to above average in the 3 and 5 year Durability Study. At 5 years they actually outscore Honda.

    If you use CR as a reference, they're average or better for every model except the new Baja.

    So reliability has been pretty favorable.

    FWIW, we have a rep from SoA on these boards, perhaps you've seen her lurking, but with her help and via the 800 number most every issue brought up here on Edmunds is addressed.

    Good luck with yours, stick around we'll help out should any issues arise.

    -juice
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    dwcoloradodwcolorado Member Posts: 10
    Just test drove 3 Passats (TDI, 1.8T, & V6) and 2 Subarus (Legacy GT and LLBean Outback) back to back this weekend. The Passats are nice cars, but the Legacy GT is the only one that left me with a permanent grin after the test drive. I'd probably consider a base model Passat if awd wasn't a criteria, but once you add the $ for 4motion, the Legacy GT is almost a no brainer. It seems that the only thing the Passat has over the Legacy GT is back seat space and stability control.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Cool. So, you buying?

    The 2.5T engine is a gem.

    -juice
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    dwcoloradodwcolorado Member Posts: 10
    Yeah, I'm thinking about buying an Outback XT, but just want to drive one first (dealer didn't have any in stock yet). I imagine it will be the same as the Legacy GT, but with a little worse handling due to ride height.
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    feilofeilo Member Posts: 128
    Don't blame you. If the Legacy GT 2.5T was available back in Dec 02, it would definitely be a NO-BRAINER for my purchase then. I am enjoying my FWD 1.8T Passat wagen but it took a bit of modding (& $) to get it to this point - mainly chip, suspension and wheels - which is (almost) equivalent to the GT, minus the AWD of course. Oh, well ...

    I'd go with the Legacy GT if you don't have to deal with ground clearance. The OB will take the edge off the performance package from a handling prespective IMHO.

    LOL whatever you go with - Turbo's rocks!
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    taft4taft4 Member Posts: 57
    I owned a 2003 Subaru Forester 25 XS Premium for 18 months (12,000 miles) and was glad to get rid of it. This car was faultless and it never needed one adjustment other then the recall I knew about when I bought it. I purchased it after testing four other vehicles, nevertheless I missed a few of its faults in the testing.

    I found it to be noisy, it rode like a truck, had lousy interior lighting when opening the doors in the dark, and the AT shifter was so weird that even CR commented on it. The gas mileage was okay (20.1 over a total of 12,500 miles). Of course it had some nice features too. Perhaps best of all was its low depreciation. Trading in any new vehicle can hit you in the pocketbook and my cost over 18 months was $7200.00 which was not too bad.

    With fingers crossed because of reliability concerns I switched to a Passat GLX V6 sedan and so far things have worked out well. The GLX is very quiet, rides smoothly, has great 8-way power seats (driver and passenger) and handles much better (subjective opinion) than the Subaru. Both vehicles were powerful enough for me, easy to get up to speed on expressway ramps, and quick enough for passing on two-lane highways, so I could never figure out the need for turbos. As for 4-wheel drive, it is an absolute waste in flat city driving, the driving most people find themselves in. FWD, even in our sometimes snowy midwest is good enough.

    Juice, who sometimes appears on this board, more often on the Subaru boards, had some helpful hints for me when I had the Subaru, or else I might have dumped it sooner.

    We all have different wants with the cars we purchase, so I sometimes pity the vehicle manufacturers who have to try and satisfy us all.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The GLX V6 probably costs $10 grand more than the Forester, it had better feel more refined. :o)

    The new Legacy 2.5i and GT compare more closely to the Passat, have you been in one? It's a couple of steps up from a Forester in terms of refinement, NVH, materials used, etc.

    Any how, congratulations and good luck with your Passat.

    -juice
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    taft4taft4 Member Posts: 57
    Juice:

    The MSRP on the 2003 Subaru was $26,802 and on the Passat it was $31,430. I got a bigger discount on the Passat and so the actual net difference between the two was about $3,000.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Street prices for 2004 Foresters are pretty low right now, you can get a base X model for $19k, auto still under $20k. Even a premium package with leather doesn't break $23k.

    The turbo costs more, but no Passat is that quick, not even the W8.

    Of course prices vary a lot by region, Subies cost more in Canada, for instance.

    -juice
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    dbyangdbyang Member Posts: 6
    what is NVH?
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Sorry, it's an industry acronym for Noise, Vibration, and Harshness.

    -juice
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    norrmanndonorrmanndo Member Posts: 81
    Subaru has improved greatly in this area over the past 15 years. My Subaru from the 80s vibrated so much that bolts kept vibrating out of the engine and falling off. Once it died on the highway. But I could keep it idling if it was floored. So my cousin got out and looked under the hood. I started it up and had it floored and it was only slowly idling. he looked in and gasoline was shooting out of the carberator. So I cut the engine. It turned out a plug had vibrated itself out of the carb and fallen out. Since we couldn't find it, I tried to find a bolt that was the same size, but couldn't so I wrapped a bolt in electrical tape and forced it in, then wrapped tape around the carb to keep it in place. We were able to get back on the road. At least it didn't blaze into a fire like some 03 CRVs. Another time a spark plug vibrated and popped out. The previous owner had buggered the threads so it wasn't quite at tight as it should have been, but the vibration of that engine was unbelievable.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Try the new boxer 6, you need the tach to even realize the engine is on!

    -juice
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    daisymaedaisymae Member Posts: 2
    I have never owned either the Forester or the Passat but I have test driven both and done a lot of research. I found the 2005 Forester to handle well but the engine was so incredibly noisey. I felt like I was overstressing the engine and my natural reaction was to ease up on the gas pedal. I don't want a car in which I feel I have to baby it becuase I'm afraid of the noise! Especially not when its a 2.5L engine!! I also do not like how the Foresters age. The ones on the road that are just a few years old look so old and tired. They may hold their value but not their good looks.
    I own a VW Jetta now and am very aware of the electrical problems and difficulties with VW reliability but I too think I am going to take my chances. German engineering and design is just too hard to beat. Besides my Jetta has not done me wrong! I can go without a functioning dome light!
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