Subaru Outback VDC

evilizard

OUCH! that's embarrasing (if your volvo). Having your high dollar XC toasted by a base model Subaru. I wonder how the VDC would have faired.
I have no idea what the guy is saying but its pretty obvious at the end which was his choice!

I'm not sure that test was entirely representative as they went at the hill from a stop. I think if the Volvo had momentum it would have made it. Most people don't stop before going up a hill (but it could easily happen)

It looks like there was a failure to on the volvo to transfer power to the rear wheels at very low speeds. In the initial assault up the hill you see the back wheels doing some driving but once the speed gets really slow its all over but the spinning of tires.

Great flick!

kens

Great movie. I loved how the guy hops into the Subie at the end and takes off leaving the Volvo behind!

The wheelspin was pretty convincing, but was that really a XC? I find it hard that the XC's AWD wouldn't kick in with that kind of wheelspin.

Ken

drew_

Yup, it's an XC, and all XC's are AWD only. I think the reason why the Volvo had trouble was because its AWD system is reactive and heavily FWD-biased, rather than the Subaru's which is pro-active. Because there wasn't much traction for the front wheels (nor any torque management), when the power was applied on the Volvo, just about all of it leaked out to the front via the viscous coupling leaving none for the rear. You could hear and but not see one of the front wheels spinning madly. However, to be fair, I think that the Outback, because of its lack of torque mangement can also be get stuck albeit it in tougher conditions. This won't apply to the VDC since its traction control system will brake the spinning wheels and hence redirect the torque to the right wheels as necessary.


Check this out:

http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/volvo.html


Drew
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kens

Drew,

Thanks for the link. You learn something new every day. So I wonder if the difference (wasn't clear to me in the link) between the XC and a manual tranny Subaru is just the power split of 98/2 vs. 50/50.

I wonder how the MT Subaru AWD would have done on that test. I'm guessing that they showed a 4EAT model.

Ken

evilizard

Had a chance to look at that movie again in more detail.
Noticed two things.
1) The OB he was driving was most likely a manual transmission. I determined this by
A) Its Europe, 90% of all European cars are manuals, makes sense that they would review the car most might buy (the XC on the other hand ONLY comes in Automatic I believe (could be wrong)
Listen closely to what he says. While the Subaru is cruising up the hill he says something that sounds pretty close to
"50% front 50% back"
That would make it the Manual.
2) That engine reving noise you hear when the XC is trying to get up the hill is NOT comming from the XC. It is from another car. You the same noise later at the end when the guy is talking outside of the car.

Still it makes a pretty convincing case for the Sube.

drew_

No, it's an automatic tranny Outback. See the main page:

http://bilnytt.spray.se/nybil/Volvo%20XC%20mot%20Subaru/


Anyone here that can translate Swedish to English? ;-)


That noise is definitely the Volvo...it's the characteristic 5 cylinder engine note that I'm very familiar with. You can see the right front wheel kicking up dust/dirt while spinning freely. The sound clip isn't exactly the greatest quality, and someone else could very well be testing another vehicle.


Drew
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tualatinmike

We are thinking of buying a VDC. We have a 97 Legacy Outback wagon. It has a most annoying characteristic. When at a stop light or sign, while in drive (it's an automatic) sometimes the engine suddenly surges. This can be a real problem if the driver does not have his/her foot firmly pressing down on the brake pedal. Has anyone had the same problem with the VDC Outbacks?

scarwaf

I have a VDC with 7,000 miles. Yes, I have a very, very slight surge and it will occur within the first 10 minutes after I start it up. Never at a full stop or at a light, only if I'm pulling into and parking lot spot heading forward, going very slowly. It's very slight. After that it disappears completely. Other then that she's perfect. I hope this will help you.
Bobby

11thcav

I've been driving them all, and really like the VDC. Dealer made an offer of just under $33,000 for this one and just over $31,000 for the L.L. Bean. I believe these prices to be high. Can anyone give me some idea what I should be looking at for pricing here in the Scranton, PA - Binghamton, NY area? Also, the McIntosh sound system is great, but I hate to give up the convenience of a CD changer. If I chose not to go with the VDC, I find the placement of the Subaru CD changer a bit odd. I attempted to insert a CD with the vehicle in "Park", and the shift lever will not allow this. Am I missing something here? It appears an aftermarket unit would be a much better choice, and I am interested in knowing if many owners are going this way. Easy install?

evilizard

33K for a VDC? Thats way (MSRP) high. Check out Edmunds, it should go for 30 (or less). Try Autobytel.com. Its a good place to get a starting value
You can get an add on CD changer (uses that space underneath the radio. Take some of that money you saved in negotiation and get one.

That McIntosh is an awesome system, blows any other system I have listened to away. You would have to drop some serious $$ to equal it in the aftermarket. Remeber its not just the radio but the speakers as well! In terms of raw power the bean comes in at 80W, the Mc has 200!. The Bean doesn't have a subwoofer (nothing like watching your rear view mirror shake). Also it doesn't have the depth of field. The Mc sounds really good no matter where you are in the car (except the trunk). Most stereo's don't have that good of a balance.

As far as the problem with inserting a CD while the vehical is in park that is odd. The only time that I cannot insert a CD when the vehical is in park is if it the vehical is not running (but you CAN eject the CD). If the vehical is running you should be able to insert and play a CD. If you can't you've got a defect (don't buy that one).

mikenk

Well, I first had to decide to switch from my '94 Volvo 850 turbowagon, then I had to decide between the OB, Passat, and Volvo, then finally between the bean or the VDC, That turned out to be the hardest. Thanks to all on this thread for helping; good discussions. I went with the VDC. My rationale was that in 5 years, I will still have the great stereo and a modern traction control system, but will have forgotten the $2500 difference. I pick it up today.

thanks all
Mike

vincer2

I have the Subaru 6 cd changer in my 2000 OB. Sales person told me when we were going over the new car delivery process that it was an ergo design slip up that you can't insert or remove a cd when the car is in park. I wanted to correct the situation by switching over and buying a manual transmission OB instead but my other half wouldn't agree to my corrective action solution.

We've learned to live with it and now its only a minor inconvenience. We do like that the cd changer is both readily available and does not require a cartridge. The stereo also sounds great but I probably have older ears than most participants of this forum.

Vince

originalbitman

It's fairly easy to do a stereo swap/upgrade on the Legacys (other than the VDC). I've posted the install instructions on my site:

http://www.bitman.com/soobinstall

bit

vdchawk

Hi,

I don't think Subaru has a changer for the VDC yet. If Patti is reading, please correct me!

mikenk

I Picked up my new VDC today and so far am truly impressed. The ride is extremely quite; the ride very compliant and stable. Initially I had been somewhat unimpressed with the FM tuner versus the Bean on my test drive; in fact, I don't think the McIntosh tuner is much better than the Bean version. However, I tried some of my best cd's and the quality on the McIntosh was truly amazing; even the classical cd's were very good, a new standard for me in auto audio quality.

BTW, I talked to the service manager and he recommended that I use synthetic oil and the engine would last forever. My plan is to change over at about 1000 miles. Does anyone have recommendations as to the best oil? I have never used synthetics.

thanks,
Mike

evilizard

Well the McIntosh controls seem to indicate the possibility of hooking up an external disk player too it. If Sub doesn't have one out yet perhaps McIntosh does?

As far as synthetic oil goes just make sure you get 100% synthetic, not those synthetic blends. Mobil 1 has a solid following but all the big boys make excellent oils.

If you want what is regarded as the best if price was no object you could always use Redline. But at $8 a quart I doubt you can afford it. Besides it will only really show its stuff if you are pushing your engine into the redline a lot (race car engines). Regular synthetic will do you just as good.

nygreg

I plan to switch over at the 7500 mile service to Mobil 1. Only 5000 miles to go! Just switched over my Sienna to Mobil. Your expected to see a big difference in starting during winter. We'll see.

Greg

nygreg

The same questions always come up. (i.e. synthetic oil, recommended tires, ECM resets, etc) Is there a way to have a section in the forum for these re-occuring questions to be easily searched and documented? Just a thought.

Thanks,
Greg

jim2741

I really like the H6 engine in the Outback but I must say that I've always thought of Subaru as kind of an economical car, a good value for the money. I currently own a 2000 2.5 RS sedan and believe this is a great car for the money. Is the 30+K Outback a great car for the money?, I'm not sure. I really haven't seen that many H6 Outbacks because I'm not sure that people want to pay that much for a Subaru, sorry. I also think that once you get into that price range, people start looking at the Volvo and Audi. I also don't think the Outback has the same fit and finish as a Volvo or an Audi. I do wish Subaru would put the H6 engine in the Legacy GT. Now that would be a car that I would have to think about.

theob

We looked seriously at an A4 Avant before buying a VDC. For the money, we thought that we got a better value from the VDC. In our opinion, the fit and finish of the VDC surpassed that of the A4 Avant, to say nothing of the reliability record, additional room, better fuel mileage, more ground clearance (Colorado dirt roads;-), better stereo, and choice of dealerships (~17 Sube in CO vs. 6 Audi). Things in the A4 that would (maybe) be nice to have: 5-spd auto, "pinch protection", in-dash data display. Volvo is not even close to the price range for AWD wagons.
Theo

evilizard

Just depends on what you want.
For the feature set of mid size AWD wagon, "luxury" interior (ie leather, climate control, sunroof, killer stereo), 6 cylinder engine and full traction control system the VDC is the cheapest wagon out there. The Passat is the closest at the same price point, has a few more whistles but is largely unavailible at this time and some reliability questions.

When I sat down and decided to buy I didn't think to myself "Do I really want to pay that much for a Subaru" I thought "Do I really want to pay that much for a car with these features". The badge name was inconsequential except for reputation of reliability and safety.

Truthfully if I could have done some picking and choosing I would have like to have gotten the H-6 and traction control and leather and ditched the moonroof, climate control, fancy plastic fake wood and stereo and saved several thousand dollars. If you look at how much each of these features hikes up the price of the car you see that you definatley get less bang for your buck on the VDC than the base model. Interestingly enough those the features that have impressed people (got the oohs and ahhs) that have ridden in the car are in order: Leather, Dual Moonroof (always good for an ooh or two), fancy plastic fake wood (especially the steering wheel), smooth quiet ride and stereo system. The 6 cylinder engine, AWD and traction conrol went largely unoticed.

The traditional Subaru market has been people requiring value and reliability (cheap good cars). I think with the advent of the Bean and VDC they are testing the waters to see how much people will pay for a Subaru and possibly trying to make inroads into Volvo's lock on the socially acceptable station wagon market. I just hope they don't leave the low end behind.

mikenk

Before we purchased the VDC, we had checked out the comparably equipped Volvo GLT ($5000 more), the Volvo XC ($6000 more), the Audi A6 ($10000 more, OUCH) and the Passat (about the same). We only looked at the Subaru on a whim, but in my opinion, it was the best car of the lot: rode the best, had the best stereo, was the quietest, had the best reliability record, had the best AWD system. It was really a no brainer for us.

I had a Volvo for 6 years; overall a good car but a lot of things break and they cost a lot to fix. I also have a Toyota Supra; nothing ever breaks. I think the European reputation for fit and finish is mostly a myth, but it remains to be seen whether Subaru can sell the image change. Toyota did it with a complete name change, Lexus.

Mike

pattim3

No CD changer YET from MacIntosh. From what I hear, one will be availabe soon. I'll post when I get more details.

Patti

aakerson

My wife has a 2001 VDC; I have a 2000 OB 5-speed. We love 'em both, even though the VDC just got back from a week in the shop for a redo (mailed in to SoA)of the computer(ECM?, or whatever)for reprogramming. Seems the check-engine light would go on, when there was no reason for it.

On a lark, I've been thinking about replacing my OB with an SUV. No big reasons except lack of sunroof, and seating position in the OB (I'm 6'4").

Looked at/test-drove new Olds Bravada, Chevy Trailblazer, Explorer and Highlander. Bottom line -- great engines in all of them, especially the new GM inline 6, ride in the Trailblazer and Explorer smooth until the first significant bump (Expl. with independent rear suspension no better than GM w/solid axle) and Bravada with air-ride the best. Heard rattles in the Explorer, saw fit/finish flaws on the GM'ers Seats in the Trailblazer were wonderful --I'll give it credit there. Highlander -- no improvement in seating position, tinny radio, fit and finish excellent except for a plastic wood fitting on right side of the dash. Highlander was best of the four.

After this romp through four car dealers, I won't be getting an SUV soon. With our Subarus, we get much better mileage, MUCH better reliability(than the Big 2 products even w/the computer on the VDC, much better handling, and much more value for the money. I chuckle at those who say $32K is too much for a VDC -- each of the SUVs I looked at stickered for $35-$36k. A Highlander with the VDC's bells and whistles would hit $35K as well.

After looking at these four, I concluded the only one worth considering was one that I DID NOT drive -- the $36-$38K Acura and mostly because of its excellent nav. system. But having read the rants about it on the acuramdx.com website, I'm dubious of it too.

drew_

...at 6-7pm Pacific/9-10 pm Eastern. Hope to see you there!
http://www.edmunds.com/chat/subaruchat.html



Drew
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kullenberg

aakerson:
You mentioned that you were tall and felt cramped in your OB, what about you wife's VDC? The specs say it has 43.3" of leg room in the front, as compared to 42 in my ML430. The VDC is on my short list as a replacement for the ML. We had one of the first OB, and I found it very cramped. I suppose the easy answer is go to my local dealer and try one on for size.
Cheers
Pat

drew_

highndry

Just purchased the VDC a few weeks ago and I like the car very much. But the car has a definite hesitation problem when taking off from a stop. I brought it into the dealer and he knew exactly what I was talking about. He even described it better the I could. He also said he's had similar complaints. Unfortunately, he also said it was part of the VDC system and there was not much you can do about it except to reset the computer. So they reset the computer and the problem seemed to be fixed until a 50 mile trip on the freeway. The hesitation is back and is very annoying. This problem ruins the drivability of the car in stop and go traffic. Since the service tech said there were similar complaints I can't imagine that Subaru doesn't know about this. I'm waiting to hear back form Subaru. Anybody out there with a similar complaint?

By the way, my brakes also squeak when backing up in the morning.

sbennett1

i have a 2001 outback wagon, purchased in february, and ever since the warm weather set in, i have been experiencing a problem with must/fungus odors in the ventilation system. this is not just an air conditioning problem; in fact, the odor is worse when just the vent is on. the dealer already cleaned the system with a fungicide, but the smell is returning and it's only been 3 weeks since the cleaning. any one else out there with this problem?

smokeybaer

My VDC does something similar. From a light (under light pedal pressure) it really jumps but after a few feet it sort a gags and the accelleration from then on is very sedate. If it was a carburated motor I would be enriching the accellerator pump and power jet settings. I reported on another board a problem with what appears to be a driveline clunk when getting on and off the gas at freeway speeds. Anyone with any suggestions? I tried another VDC and it was even worse. This is my first Subaru and maybe they are all like that.

Warren

highndry

You've described the condition perfectly. From what little information I can get, it seems to be a problem with the computer that controls the VDC system. As I stated in my first post, there are others with the same complaint. For $30,000 I think we should expect better performance. I'll be interested to see what Subaru has to say. Any comments or suggestions are welcome.

mikenk

I have had my VDC for about a week and am experiencing the little hesitation delay, which is definitly annoying. I hope there will be a solution. Otherwise, I am very pleased with the car.

hypov

Try this as an experiment(s)-
From a full stop, lighty accelerate (let the car jump you if it does), (quickly) let off the gas and immediately lightly accelerate again. You should be able to duplicate the hesitation that way. Meaning, that's probably what you've all done.
Theory:
(1) You're at 1st when the car jumped you
(2) you had let off the gas (reflex), the 4EAT shifted to 2nd.
(3) When you accelerate again (thinking you had your foot on the accelerator all the time), you already loss momentum and at 2nd gear it will take awhile.

I am not claiming to know the mechanics of the 4EAT, but that's one of its characteristics (for the light/feather footed) I've learnt from my '98 OB 4EAT.
Remedy. Y'all got to find the sweet acceleration spot on your VDC so it won't jump you. I let the car roll on its own a foot or two before I accelerate and, if I'm not the first car at the light, I give myself about 10' buffer from the car in front to provide an uninterupted runway. But if at the split second you sense that it is going to jump and you have clear road ahead, forget the gentle acceleration. Step on it. When it wants to go it wants to go.

Oh, try slowly accelerating too, like really dilly dallying inching the rpm up to around 1000rpm. The car probably will remind you rudely to step it up next time.

Crawling stop and go traffic should yield you both the hestitation and rude reminder (I shift to 1st if it is going to be a while).

Highway speed, when you accelerate to pass and you don't seem to be speeding up (the 4EAT is probably locked up on overdrive). Pedal to the metal or down shift to 3rd should do the trick.

Last things. Having the driver's seat adjusted too far back can also contribute to the hesitation experience, and if you have more than one driver using the car and both have different driving style...hmmm, get use to it?

highndry

Sorry pal, this car has a diffinate hesitation problem. The hesitation comes long before it shifts into 2nd. From what I can gather, this problem is inherent to the 'VDC' system... most likely computer related. I don't believe a 98 OB has this system. For all you folks out there that remember carburetors, it feels just like one with a poor accelerator pump.

hypov

have the VDC set up, which controls over/under steering, drifts, wheel spin etc... These are the data it feeds to the TCM (Transmission Control Module). Otherwise the 4EAT setup (how and when it shifts gear) should be pretty much the same.
Give the experiment(s) a try. Can't hurt or annoy you anymore than it has now. :-)

scarwaf

I have my VDC since Nov 30 and I have had no problems at all It runs sweet and beautiful Just a little brake squeak in the morning which goes away quickly I have put on 7250mi

pattim3

We aren't hearing a lot of complaints about this. Can you call us and start a case file so we can follow-up with the dealer? The number is 1-800-SUBARU3. Thanks!

Patti

highndry

I called Subaru yesterday AM. The Dealership called back within an hour and set up an appointment for Friday. I'll let you know what they do.

Thanks Subaru for the quick response.

mikenk

I had reported earlier that I had also experienced the hesitation problem on my new VDC. Upon more playing, I am now convinced that in my case, it is really just a quirk of the drive train. Particularly on right turns into traffic, I will start the car out, let off the accelerator, make the right turn, and then accelerate again; thats when I feel the hesitation; it does seem like the car has shifted too quickly into second and left me with no rpm. If I maintain a steady foot and just go; there is no hesitation but there is a funny look from my wife as I snap her around the corner.

Mike

drew_

Topic: Those Little Annoyances - what really bugs you?

smokeybaer

I see where someone else must have called and started the file so I wasn't going to call. Went for a drive tonight and when I got on the freeway I noticed my check engine light had come on and refuses to go off. Could these be related as was indicated by some prior posts? All might be ECU related as my VDC was a February build date. How far can I safely drive with the light on? My Dealer is about 40 miles away.

Warren

evilizard

Don't be suprised if it goes off tommorrow. However you should haul it into the dealership given your hesitation issue. You probably need to get your ECU reprogramed. From what I was told by the service guy at our local dealership if the car runs fine driving it is not a damaging thing to do. Just get it to the dealer at earliest possible opportunity. The drive there won't kill it.

pattim3

as long as the light is not flashing, you should be fine to drive. It may just be a minor leak in the evap. system. Have you checked your fuel cap? If you are around 1/2 a tank and it is still on, fuel up and when you get to 1/2 again, it may go out. The codes will still be stored and the dealer can still get a read on what happened.

Patti

ateixeira

Congrats Mike. The number of Mikes is beginning to approach the number of Daves here. Well, almost. ;-)

I think the H6 Subies are a better value than the media has claimed, mostly becuase they look at retail prices ($33k, wow!). But ask around and people aren't paying that much. Autoweek did a survey and the average price for the H6 was just $28k, not even close. I've seen many for $27k or so.

Audi A6s command close to MSRP, as do Volvo XCs. And their base models don't have real leather or moonroofs. Add it up and you'll see a real world difference of about $10 grand.

The A4 is nice, but it's closer in size to the WRX wagon. The Outback is almost A6 sized.

-juice

mikenk

Concerning costs, I decided to trade in my 94 Volvo 850 turbowagon (80K miles) because of a potential $6000 repair over the next 20k miles. I did price research to buy my top chices: the Volvo XC (~$37k), audi A6 (~40K), A4 (35K), and the Passat AWD (~30k).

I then took my wife (This is her car)to drive them, fully expecting to settle on the Passat (price and CU ratings). Price ruled out the A6; the interior space on the A4 eliminated it from my wife without a test drive; we drove the Passat but my wife said it jiggled too much. A funny thing happened on the way to the Volvo dealer, we went by the Subaru place and decided to look at the Outback. My wife, who does not recognize the term "prestigious car" liked the way the car looked, how it drove, how it handled, and all the basic stuff on the VDC. She then asked why would we want a Volvo for more money and get back into the high cost of repair. To her, the VDC was a bargain. Unfotunatly, car reviewers do understand what "prestigious cars" means.

For the first week of ownership, I have never been more pleased with a new car. The smoothness and quietness is quite a change from the Volvo. The McIntosh"s cd performance is amazing. My golfing partners did seem disappointed that I traded down from the Volvo to a Subaru. Oh, well.

Sorry for being long winded.
Mike

ateixeira

I think one problem is the reviewers don't pay their own, hard-earned cash for the cars they test drive.

Hey, if someone else is paying I'll take a grey market RS4 Avant and a WRX STi, please.

-juice

mikenk

Juice,
I think that might be part of it, but I think most car reviewers have a mind set that an Audi (Volvo) is fundamentally a better car than a Subaru, that an elegant look of the Audi over the non conforming Subaru means more than proven reliability, just different priorities on what is important. Toyota could never have competed with a Mercedes in reviewer's eyes, but a Lexus can. The design, parts, and manufacturing processes for Toyota and Lexus are the same, but perception is very powerful.

I believe that Subaru owners actually like being a little non conformist; most reviewers are not.

Mike

ateixeira

True, true. It's funny to see then write about the WRX. They almost don't know how to react to its giant-killer performance and price.

-juice

smokeybaer

Tank was 1/2 full and cap had not been removed since last fill. Cap was still tight. Interesting thing was that engine has never performed this well. Hesitation was GONE. Barely touched the pedal to cruise at 75MPH on way to dealer. Wish it ran this good all the time. Dealer codes showed problem with fuel sensor. The fuel gage was fine however and since it ran so well I convinced them it must be a problem with ECU. They are waiting for a return call from Subaru to determine what to do. Patti: Dealer is Capital in Salem, OR. They gave me a loaner van and now we wait for maybe a week till it gets fixed. Hope it still runs like with the check engine light on. Don't suppose I could just unscrew the bulb and ignore it? Nah, guess not. Was chasing a Porche on the freeway onramp when light came on. Guess it didn't like to lose.

Warren

subaru_team

I think we should stay on top of this. Please call us with the VIN so we can start a case for you? 1-800-SUBARU3.

Thanks!

Patti