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2010 Subaru Legacy 3.6 R

mluismluis Posts: 2
edited June 3 in Subaru
Topspeed revealed a new review on the 2010 Subaru Legacy 3.6 R, featuring details about the sedan as well as a few photos and wallpapers.

"The 2010 Subaru Legacy 3.6 R Limited is an excellent import, any consumer who fails to recognize the niche market Japanese automaker’s latest mid size four door sedan as a viable option when shopping for a new car are seriously missing out. This Ruby Red Pearl 3.6 R Limited is the automaker’s top of the line Legacy, and a pleasant ..."

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Here's the whole article:
2010 Subaru Legacy 3.6 R review

And also the wallpaper gallery:
2010 Subaru Legacy 3.6 R pictures
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Comments

  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    My only disappointments are that there is no MT option available and that it doesn't put out at least 300hp. If you look at all the competition in this size/spot in lineup, they are all closer to 300hp.

    -mike
  • eps105eps105 Posts: 216
    My only disappointments are that there is no MT option available and that it doesn't put out at least 300hp. If you look at all the competition in this size/spot in lineup, they are all closer to 300hp.

    Have you actually driven one? Forget about the rated HP, Subaru tunes their engines for real-world driveability and a nice flat torque curve. This car feels like it has gobs of power to spare no matter how fast you are going. It is sublime.
  • ahqahq Posts: 37
    Just to clarify, the Legacy is not an import. They're manufactured in Lafayette, Indiana.
  • ahqahq Posts: 37
    That's what the Legacy GT is for... although it doesn't have 300 hp, it does come with the six-speed manual transmission and 18-inch wheels. The only cars that have approximately 300 hp are the Acura TL, Infiniti G37, BMW 335i, and Audi S4... all of which are far more expensive than the Legacy, which really doesn't even compete in that class anyway.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I think their powertrain strategy makes sense -

    * Turbos come with a manual.
    * H6 models come in automatic.

    I think they got it right.

    The niche buyer who really wants a manual is more likely to tune the car, and the turbo would lend itself to tuning more easily than a NA H6.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    0-60 in 7.8 seconds is a bit disappointing.

    MotorWeek got their Legacy GT (manual, turbo) to 60 in just 5.9 seconds. That's a whole bunch quicker.
  • ingvaringvar Posts: 205
    Slow car for mature adults :sick:
  • saedavesaedave Chicago, ILPosts: 683
    0-60 in 7.8 seconds is a bit disappointing

    I recall the same number from a CR test for my 2005 Outback 3.0 R VDC. I believe the weights are not very different.

    Strange.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    I'm well aware of the power bands that Subaru has...

    I've had:

    1988 XT6
    1991 XT6
    1992 SVX
    1996 Impreza L converted to a Racecar w/4EAT
    1994 Legacy SS Turbo converted to a Racecar 5MT
    2005 Legacy GT Wagon 5MT

    You take this car against most of the other mid-sized cars and you get in the 285hp range POWERING ONLY 2 WHEELS, which means your power to the ground is significantly higher than those found in the 3.6R.

    On top of this, the "flagship" car should have the highest amount of HP available, so it should at least equal the STi power of 300hp, and should easily reach that out of a 3.6H6

    The 6MT would be a deal breaker for me. Had they put 300+ hp and a 6MT in this car I'd have one in my driveway already. Instead, I will keep my faster 05 LGT until they can offer me a Legacy that is faster and with a 6MT in it. Heck even if they bumped the LGT in 2010 to 300hp of the STi (Put on the STi Heads, ECU, Turbo and IC) it would have been far superior than lobbing in the 265hp WRX motor/turbo/IC/heads)

    I think the Legacy line will sell a lot and bring over a lot of the generic Honda/Toyota folks and that's great. Unfortunately nothing in the lineup for my own personal preferences.

    -mike
    Subaru Guru and Track Instructor
  • eps105eps105 Posts: 216
    Mike, I don't dispute your experience with previous Subies. Clearly you have an impressive background.

    But you didn't answer my question -- "Have you driven one?"

    With your performance background, frankly I'm surprised you're judging the car strictly based on the hp rating on paper.

    My new Outback 3.6R has more power than I know what to do with, and it's very drivable thanks to a wide torque band. I could care less that it's "rated" at 254 hp and I've never once said, "gee, sure wish they had tuned this puppy to 280hp." The merest fact had not even begun to even start to be conceived in the slightest way to cross my mind. :shades:

    And I don't know of any mid-sized family cars in the 3.5-3.7L range that come anywhere close to 300 hp, at least those priced in the low $30k's.

    Looking at your sporting past, I don't think you're going to like the new Leg/OB in that it is now definitely biased towards a comfy cruiser with some sportiness, rather than the previous sporty car that was a modest cruiser.

    Cheers,
    Elliot
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    That engine doesn't feel slow in the Tribeca, so I can't imagine it will feel lacking in any way in the lighter Outback.

    Having said that, I drive a minivan that reaches 60mph in 7.0 seconds, and it's a slushbox, too.
  • eps105eps105 Posts: 216
    Motor Trend tested the Outback 3.6R at 7.1 secs. I'll bet as we see more full reviews of the Legacy, a few will pull of 0-60 in the high-6's.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    As I said, the car is fine for what it is, but, definitely not a "flagship" in any sort of the imagination. Heck it's got 30hp more than a grand touring car they sold in 1992, which is about 15 years ago! Coincidently that was also my first track car. I would have thought that in the course of 15 years they could have pulled off more than a 30hp increase for their top of the line Grand Touring car!

    I picked up my slightly used CTS-V which has a 6MT and 400hp for $22k, significantly less than the 3.6R and other than missing the AWD, she has it all over the 3.6R in terms of features, cost, handling, and ride.

    I'm not dowing the 3.6R, but it doesn't represent a "Sport Sedan" of the highest degree. I was really hoping to see the new legacy take on the likes of the A6, if only in the top end model in the lineup. In other words, let the 2.5i and 2.5GT take on the Camry/Accord/Altima. Let the 3.6R take on the G37, A6, Etc. The rims and tires are small, suspension is soft, and it wears an "R" badge, I'm assuming the R is for Race and it just isn't cutting it for me :(

    Just a disappointment is all.

    -mike
  • saedavesaedave Chicago, ILPosts: 683
    I was really hoping to see the new legacy take on the likes of the A6, if only in the top end model in the lineup.

    Mike,

    I'm not sure you understand those of us who have owned multiple Audi and high end VW models. Even my VW W8 was not that sporty. It did have superb fit and finish along with pretty good performance if you don't mind a front end that ploughs with sporty manuevers. Raw accelleration is not an Audi feature other than in S versions.

    The Outback with 3.6 liter engine I drove reminded me of an A6 quatro...even of an A8 q. That is, if perfect fit and finish is not important. Ride quality was better than the Audi models. Missing features like the electrically folding mirrors are also real differences.

    Of course the other missing "feature" on the 3.6 is all those days in the service bay to fix VW/Audi electrical failures. :D
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    That's more like it.

    I think peak HP is used often as a marketing tool, but we should actually look at the torque curve, because what matter is accessible torque. Here's a good image:

    image

    Peak HP is barely up at all vs. the old 3.0l H6.

    But look closer - there is a wide gap in the torque curve, especially at low RPM, where you spend most of the time.

    You've got a whopping 50 extra lb-ft at 2300rpm, for instance. A substantial advantage remains all the way up to and even past 6000rpm.

    More torque, more accessible, all the time.

    The 3.0l H6 did breathe well and held its torque at higher rpms, giving it a good HP number to publish.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Maxima- 290hp
    G37x- 330hp
    Mazda6 -275hp
    Tarus AWD -365hp

    Now those are all peak HP, I realize this, however, the "flagship" 3.6R is still 20hp short at best and almost 100 short of the tarus.

    If the Ford Tarus can kill the Legacy in terms of having AWD and Power, that's sad.

    As most of you know, I'm a diehard Subie fan, but this car came up short as the top of the line flagship vehicle for the Subaru Fleet.

    -mike

    PS: Yes I've driven it, and it's nice, but it's not a "Holy crap I gotta sell my caddy and take a pension loan to get this car".
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Well, that's a SHO, plus it's very heavy so it's not exactly a barn burner.
  • bigfrank3bigfrank3 Posts: 426
    That is a nice looking torque curve, and as Juice said that is what is important. HP is simply a calculated number derived from the torque produced. The only real things that matter to a "driver" are the torque, the gearing, and the vehicle weight... and of course suspension tuning.

    If Subaru wanted to make this more of a performance vehicle they would have left the Tribeca gearing in place. Instead they went for more balance and fuel economy.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Yup.

    Wonder what the EcoBoost torque curve is like?

    Great engine, BTW. Gobs of power and the turbo is actually tuned to run on Regular octane.

    Out of the Big 3, I think Ford is in the best position. No wonder they didn't have to declare bankruptcy.

    Having said that, let's see EcoBoost at lower price levels.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I'm not buying it, but the claims are it is flat as a pancake:

    image
  • bigfrank3bigfrank3 Posts: 426
    I agree. When you can draw HP and torque curves with a ruler it makes them suspect.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    The 3.6R's was done on a dyno and then smoothed out (all you gotta do is show the moving average)

    Ford's looks more like their goal - not an actual measured result.
  • davidc1davidc1 Posts: 168
    From what I read in magazines, that torque curve is correct. I understand that the engine is actually capable of producing much more torque. It's the engine and turbo managment that keeps it down. That's supposedly why you'll get the same torque figures regardless of the situation e.g. altitude, fuel quality, etc..
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    If that's true, and the engine turns out to be reliable, that's quite a feat. 350 lb-ft and on 87 octane.
  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJPosts: 3,516
    Diesels can pull off that feat, but in their case, it's usually by limiting torque than anything else - plus thee rev range isn't nearly as wide. When Dodge introduced the common-rail Cummins HO for MY2003, the peak output was 305 hp @2900 rpm and 555 lb-ft @1400 rpm. What's the torque rating at 2900? 552 lb-ft - flat as a board thanks to the ECU, but only sustained for a rev range of 1500 rpm.

    kcram - Pickups/Wagons Host
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    That is a nice looking torque curve, and as Juice said that is what is important. HP is simply a calculated number derived from the torque produced. The only real things that matter to a "driver" are the torque, the gearing, and the vehicle weight... and of course suspension tuning.

    I'm well aware of this. I actually road race several Subarus and modify them as a part time job.

    My point is that they COULD have bumped up the top of the line car to really compete and stand out. Instead folks will look at the numbers and dismiss it if they are looking for a sport sedan. I just find it a shame that they came so close with the redesign but fell short in the trans and engine department :( I have heard from sources that the 3.6 is very capable of producing well over 300hp in NA factory form....

    -mike
    Subaru Guru and Track Instructor
  • saedavesaedave Chicago, ILPosts: 683
    I have heard from sources that the 3.6 is very capable of producing well over 300hp in NA factory form....

    No doubt, but with what fuel economy rating? CAFE is probably the villain preventing such engine tuning. Subaru may need some very small, very fuel efficient models to permit a few such gas guzzlers.
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,673
    No doubt, but with what fuel economy rating? CAFE is probably the villain preventing such engine tuning.

    I'm sure that's the reason too. Once Subaru has some truly economical cars in production, that can offset the EPA penalties of a high-performance 3.6, then we might see such an engine.

    It's also an image thing too. To date, Subaru as a brand, has not been known for great gas mileage. So they're taking great pains now to change that image. Witness the new CVT-equipped Legacy and Outback as proof of that direction. When the Impreza and Forester get CVTs, then I think a "smokin' 3.6" could arrive.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Hopefully all us loyal owners who thirst for a true sports sedan will not have flocked to greener pastures by then. :(

    I have no problem with the heart and soul being economical cars. Heck I'm the one who preaches to the STi folks how if it wasn't for the Forester and Outbacks, there would be no STi. I just want Subaru to produce a car for when STi owners "grow up" and want a big, fast, well handling car with a stick...

    I guess I'll have to live with my CTS-V for now :)

    -mike
  • saedavesaedave Chicago, ILPosts: 683
    When the Impreza and Forester get CVTs, then I think a "smokin' 3.6" could arrive

    Bob,

    But is there a production cost increase from the (Nissan) JATCO-sourced 4-speed to the CVT? There is a precarious balance between purchase price and operating economy for buyers of low end models.

    Dave
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This discussion has been closed.