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2010 Subaru Legacy 3.6 R

2

Comments

  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,661
    The 5EAT, not the 4EAT, is bought from an outside supplier. The 4-EAT is an in-house unit, as is the new CVT. Subaru has already stated that they're committed to CVTs for other future models.

    The Impreza and Forester are next in line to get the CVT, I'm guessing 2011 for the Impreza, and 2012 for the Forester, as that's when their mid-life refresh is due. There is also a strong rumor that the '11 Impreza may be all-new, and not just a refresh. An STI sedan has been confirmed for 2011, and I find it hard to believe they would do such a massive body revise on the current Impreza sedan, four years into its shelf life.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,661
    Mike, Subaru is in the same situation as other carmakers: they all have to raise their corporate MPG average in both the U.S. (2016), and Europe (2012). Some brands are better off than Subaru, others are worse off—and as such, will offering some strange cars in order to meet those very tough standards. Here's a few that we'll likely see:

    • An Aston Martin based on the Toyota iQ micro car. No kidding! See link: http://www.motorauthority.com/blog/1033594_aston-martin-working-on-toyota-iq-bas- - - - ed-minicar
    • A Porsche hybrid. 911? Possibly.
    • An entry-level Porsche sports car based off a VW platform
    • A BMW 0-Series based off the next-gen Mini. Yep, a FWD BMW!

    There will be more announced, for sure.

    The bottom line is, this is not a decision of their own making, but rather a decision by various governmental vehicle sanctioning bodies that's being forced upon them.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Yeah I hear yah. Just kills me that there is no up-ward path for those who don't want the STi boy-racer dealio. The Spec B was almost there, had they put the STi engine (Heads, IC, Tuning, etc) in there it would have been the trick.

    Heck introduce a tiny little gas-meizer to offset the top end car (ala Escort, Cavalier, etc of the 80s).

    :)

    -mike
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    The bottom line is, this is not a decision of their own making, but rather a decision by various governmental vehicle sanctioning bodies that's being forced upon them.

    Yup, that sums up a lot of what is wrong with America these days. Home of the not-so-free :(

    -mike
  • bigfrank3bigfrank3 Posts: 426
    I am less concerned with what the graph says than how it says it. I spent 33 years analyzing and presenting data as well as studying the capabilities of control systems and the resultant variability on a product. I have also looked at hundreds of dyno graphs, and have never seen one without any ripple. There are smoothing techniques available to remove noise and provide a cleaner picture but they have limited use in a dyno graph. Higher frequency ripple causes no distraction in what the graph purports to show. This graph is either overly and unnecessarily numb or it is an artist rendition. The only thing that remotely looks like ripple is the plotter pen jitters on the rising part of the torque curve. That is why I made my "drawn with a ruler" comment.

    In your example there is at least 3 lb-ft variation in a 1500 RPM range, here there is no variation in about 4000. I also bet that Diesel curve showed ripple too.

    I also understand the technology and believe that what they are trying to show for torque performance CAN be done. This should be relatively easy to design with today's sophisticated engine control capability, and 2 turbos. You take the normal engine curve and use the design of the turbos to each help a different part of the curve, and control the whole result with the computers, sensors, and mapping. Ford should be praised for taking the time and spending the resources to do it.

    Way back, Saab was an innovator in this type of technology with their APC engine management/turbo control system. They toned down peak torque to provide a much flatter and usable torque curve, and they did it with one turbo on a 4 cyl and electronics that can't compare to what the capabilities are now.
  • bigfrank3bigfrank3 Posts: 426
    Hi Mike. I only commented on the HP because that is all that was being mentioned. Back in the muscle days with the horsepower wars there were many vehicles with higher claimed HP that were getting dusted by vehicles with less listed HP but had much better torque characteristics, gearing, and overall balance.

    I agree that they COULD do as you ask, but think about whether a small company would want to direct their resources to that task. Some things to consider:

    1. Would that be an "extra" engine or would they tweak the 1 3.6? They just got the H6 away from premium fuel, would they want to move back in that direction when their target is clearly mainstream use?

    2. There are higher costs incurred with developing a higher output non-mainstream engine, as well as higher warranty costs from higher stressed engines. They don't seem to dilute their efforts and the current achievement is the CVT, and now getting it spread out to other vehicles. Since this helps the MPG due to the lower final drive ratio it is obvious that this is their big-picture view.

    3. There have been issues selling the upmarket Tribeca even though it is an excellent vehicle. Do they want to keep pushing vehicle prices higher to try and pick up some additional specialized sales, or do they focus more on the mainstream market with their limited resources, especially in a bad economy? "Horsepower wars" have been replaced with "advertised price and MPG wars".

    As I mentioned, they could have given more performance by keeping the Tribeca gearing with the 3.6, even if they only did that for a top sporty model. They didn't do that either, and there are added costs to do things like that both from a manufacturing/assembly standpoint as well as EPA certification of any combo they plan to sell, in addition to the overall brand MPG average that others have mentioned. They are clearly keeping their conservative approach and staying focused on the sweet-spot of buyers, not those of us that always want more performance, more power, and more gears. We may want something different but the stockholders are probably happy with how the money is getting spent, and the results.

    Regards.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Oh I agree, I prefaced the whole discussion that the new Legacy is a great way to take on the Camcord. However there is no way to retain buyers that want to have all the niceties of the size of the legacy but are looking to move up to a classier car with all the bells and whistles. I think that the G37x can walk all over the 3.6R unfortunately not a much higher of a price. I held out before plunging in on the 05 CTS-V but when they confirmed the non-upscale 2010 3.6R I had to part from the Subies :(

    I still race/track my 05 LGT Wagon 5MT and love it. Also run a Subaru aftermarket Install shop, so hopefully they'll come around with something to lure me in again.

    -mike
  • saedavesaedave Chicago, ILPosts: 683
    I think that the G37x can walk all over the 3.6R unfortunately not a much higher of a price.

    Unless the G37 is greatly improved over the G35 that I have driven, The 3.6R has a much more comfortable ride.

    The styling of the 3.6R may be its real weak point, not 0-60 time.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Styling? It looks just like the G37... :D
  • Some of our local Portland tuner shops told me Subaru turbos (and other engines) don't make as much HP as they could.

    The claim's apparently Subaru engines were originally intended for 98 Octane, but had to be de-tuned significantly for USA's much lower 91-92 Premium Octane. The result is the USA engines both burn as lean as possible and ride the ragged edge of detonation.

    The tuner shops have ECU programs that will get 40 - 50 HP more out of the turbos (they showed me their dyno curves), but at the price of using more fuel, possibly overheating the CAT converter, and voiding your Subaru engine warranty.

    One of the before-after profiles came from Cobb.
    Any comments?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    98 octane is racing fuel.

    Maybe you mean RON or MON ratings, as opposed to the (R+M)/2 measured used here in the US. We basically use the average of those two ratings.
  • Unfortunately, the tuner shops I talked to didn't tell me whether they were referring to MON or RON. So I'm in the dark here. :confuse:

    Anyway, I've no desire to void my engine warranty so ECU experiments are out for the time being.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Yes that's on the turbo motors. ALL turbo and SC motors can be tuned (not just subaru ones) to gain easily 40-50 more HP.

    I have an Access Port on my car and easily it puts out 40-50hp more with it at the crank.

    -mike
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    I think that the G37x can walk all over the 3.6R unfortunately not a much higher of a price.

    Unless the G37 is greatly improved over the G35 that I have driven, The 3.6R has a much more comfortable ride.

    The styling of the 3.6R may be its real weak point, not 0-60 time.


    Thanks for proving my point. For a car called a 3.6R as in RACE it shouldn't have a "comfortable" ride, it should have a taught ride like the G37x has. And the G37x is WAY faster than the 3.6R ever could hope to be, it's got a 7 speed AT and well OVER 300hp!

    :(

    -mike
  • dcm61dcm61 Posts: 1,457
    For a car called a 3.6R as in RACE it shouldn't have a "comfortable" ride, it should have a taught ride like the G37x has.

    "Let’s get one thing straight, right here at the top: The “R” in the model designation does not stand for race.

    But neither does “R” stand for retardo—Spanish for “slow as hell,” or something like that."
    http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/09q3/2010_subaru_outback_3.6r-short_take- _road_test

    "The 3.6 R is the top of the line Legacy, however in this case the “R” stands for relaxed and not for racing and after having a look around the new Legacy we can see why."
    http://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/initial-thoughts-2010-subaru-legacy-36-r-a- - - r78983.html

    From an old Austrailian OB 3.0R article: "And just in case you’re wondering, the “R “stands for Double Overhead Camshaft."
    http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/DE25D251F368246DCA256DD0000269- - AE#
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,661
    I agree, the "R" does not stand for race, as Subaru offers a 2.0R H4s in other markets, and they certainly aren't "racers." Same can be said for Outbacks with either the 3.0R or 3.6R engines. No way could they be considered racers. Sporty? Maybe. Racers? No.

    From what I can gather is that "R" models all have DOHC engines (as opposed the the SOHC "i" models), but are not turbos. So yeah, they are sportier and more powerful than "i" models, but certainly are not racers.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I think they should pick a different letter, then.

    R is from GT-R or Type R, so it definitely has you thinking of race-tuned.

    Better yet - just drop the letter and call it the 3.6.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    In the automotive world if you put the R after a car's designation, it stands for R...

    XJR
    C6R Corvette
    Type R
    GT-R

    Etc. Either way, the 3.6 is their top of the line flagship, yet it has less HP/Torque than the STi and the Legacy GT.

    Just a sad state of affairs and was hoping it would be a serious competitor to the G37x and the other "luxury" awd models at a significant cost savings.

    As we've talked about in the past, they need to really get their nomenclature in order for models...
    Legacy 2.5, 2.5GT and 3.6 would work fine and leave things open for whatever comes next for them.

    -mike

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I agree, the 3.6 is the flagship and implies luxury, not sport. It should be the 3.6 Limited or something like that, no R in sight.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Well the Flagship COULD be sporty, however the 3.6R which implies sporty, is not. Heck even the Lexus LS460 Sport now gets Brembo Calipers!

    -mike
  • Hi this is super random but I have been online for literally 2 days now trying to figure out how to fix my car. I have a 2009 Legacy and just put a mid priced air filter on her. ... and she hates it. I can get it running but it dies after about 15 or 20 seconds. If i have the AC on full blast i can keep it running a bit longer but i'm totally confused about why it would be doing this. I have quadruple checked all hoses, gaskets, clamps, etc. I'm thinking about heading out again in a bit to screw with the idle. But yeah. If you'd hit me u[p i'd really appreciate it.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    You either don't have the airbox complete latched (It can be a PITA) or one of the vacum hoses came off during the installation and you missed it. This is fairly common when doing an air filter replacement.

    -mike
    Subaru Guru and Track Instructor
  • xwesxxwesx Fairbanks, AlaskaPosts: 8,398
    Yeah, I was going to suggest the MAF sensor connector or a vacuum hose.

    Definitely do not fiddle with the idle.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    I don't think you can actually adjust the idle on any of the new electronically controlled cars these days. :)

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I 2nd the vacuum hose theory.

    That happened to a Subaru Crew member when they did their intake.

    Look closely, even disassemble and reassemble the whole intake, I bet that's it.
  • ingvaringvar Posts: 205
    For a car called a 3.6R as in RACEFor this car "R" means Retired:-) You got slow 0-60 and "comfortable" ride. Some kind of Subary Buick.
  • Gas.

    Sort of obvious.

    C'mon y'all, get with it. ;)

    John
  • asdf9asdf9 Posts: 26
    The 3.6R is so slow. Come on! Some one else measured 0-60 in 7.1
    A second shorter than the charger hemi. And the HEMI and infiniti don't have grip like the Legacy.
  • Motor Trend measured the 3.6R (Limited version, I think) Outback as having a 0-60 time of 7.1 seconds.

    The somewhat lighter 3.6R Legacy is a bit faster - I think I recall seeing 6.5 seconds in a Road & Track article. I would also guess that the 2.5 turbo Legacy with the 6MT would be a bit faster still. But 6.5 seconds is not bad...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Motorweek reached 60mph in just 5.9 seconds with their GT/Manual.

    That's quick for such a large sedan.
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